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DW's new suspension design. the split pivot.

no skid marks

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
_*sTiTcHeS*_ said:
so how does moving the pivot change the pedalling? is it because of chain torque? i have a single pivot and an fsr and the single pivot likes to get stiff when i pedal and the other one does not... only difference that i can feel.
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Is the single pivot homosexual?
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Sorry childish I know,yes the chain will pull the rear wheel to whatever side of the pivot it is getting pulled from(the top of the chainring/cranks).If the top of the chainring that the chain is on is inline with the pivot it will have very little effect on the suspension,and the only affect it will have will be due to the height above the rear axle that the cassette sprocket that's being used is,as this will also make the chain ,the rear axle,and the pivot into a triangle shape rather than a flat line,if you can see what I'm sayin.So whenever there's a triangle shape,one point is the pivot,one is the rear axle,and one is where the chain si pulling from(or to) and one side is the chain trying to get shorter,the other long side is the swingarm getting pulled by the chain. You can't make one side shorter without affecting the other.
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
jtdcg said:
Bicycling blog post about the trek...bottom has some info related to DW...
http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2007/06/08_trek_fuel_ex.html
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You need the quote, people are too lazy:busted:

Recently, a press release came across my desk for a new suspension design from Dave Weagle, author of the DW-Link design, called Split Pivot. To quote the press-release, "The new system is called Split Pivot and features worldwide patent pending concentric dropout pivot technology never seen before." If you paid attention above, you will note that this is the same as Trek's new system.
I asked Trek, "So, what's the deal?" They told me Dave Weagle came by Trek to try and get them (Trek) to license Split Pivot several months ago. At that time, according to Trek, they (Trek) had been developing ABP for about a year. Neither party new of the other's design. Trek informed Weagle about their design and the two parties went their separate ways. Basically, according to Trek, Trek has a patent pending on ABP, and Weagle has a patent pending on Split Pivot. The two parties are waiting to see what the Patent and Trademark Office decides.

At the time of this writing, I have not had an opportunity to contact Weagle and hear his side. I plan to follow up with him and will amend this post when I do.
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K

klunky

Turbo Monkey
Oct 17, 2003
1,078
6
Scotland
The fact that trek has built prototypes already makes me think that Trek has had the idea for a while. But there is something that makes me think it went down like:
" They told me Dave Weagle came by Trek to try and get them (Trek) to license Split Pivot several months ago"
Trek said "whoa thats a sweet design....no hang on I mean we already have a design exactly like that"
 
D

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
Seems to me the smartest thing Trek could do here is to pay Dave. Not because Dave was first, really that doesn't matter. First or not, the fact is Dave is a recognizable name, and his stuff has gathered a lot of respect. Trek very well may have come up with the idea first, and good for them if they did. But the straight truth is, Dave Weagle and his suspension ideas carry a lot more respect then Trek's designers, justified or not.

That sort of a thing will matter to all the nerds out there, and here, and it will sound cool to the dentists that buy those frames for themselves and a matching one for the misses with a rack on it.
 
Dusty Bottoms

Dusty Bottoms

Monkey
Sep 10, 2001
101
0
Santa Monica
dropmachine.com said:
Seems to me the smartest thing Trek could do here is to pay Dave. Not because Dave was first, really that doesn't matter. First or not, the fact is Dave is a recognizable name, and his stuff has gathered a lot of respect. Trek very well may have come up with the idea first, and good for them if they did. But the straight truth is, Dave Weagle and his suspension ideas carry a lot more respect then Trek's designers, justified or not.

That sort of a thing will matter to all the nerds out there, and here, and it will sound cool to the dentists that buy those frames for themselves and a matching one for the misses with a rack on it.
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What you are suggesting doesn't make any business sense, pure and simple. Why should Trek pay for Dave Weagle's name if they filed for this patent first? Trek's name is 10,000x more "recognizable" in the biking world, and they didn't get that way by paying unneccessary licensing fees.

This all comes down to the dates on the patent applications. Nothing more.
 
W

Whoops

Turbo Monkey
Jul 9, 2006
1,011
0
New Zealand
It would depend on the market treks going for - if they have in mind a pro level DH bike... puting the DW brand (sorry Dave) on it makes some business sense (though not a lot)
 
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dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
Dusty Bottoms said:
What you are suggesting doesn't make any business sense, pure and simple. Why should Trek pay for Dave Weagle's name if they filed for this patent first? Trek's name is 10,000x more "recognizable" in the biking world, and they didn't get that way by paying unneccessary licensing fees.

This all comes down to the dates on the patent applications. Nothing more.
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Last time I checked, puttingt DWs name on there doesnt' mean removing Treks. Now ADDING his name brings with it a sense of respectibility that Trek alone does not have, at least in a few circles. Course, it all depends on the numbers in the end.
 
Tame Ape

Tame Ape

BUY HOPE!!!!!!!
Mar 4, 2003
2,284
1
NYC
dropmachine.com said:
Last time I checked, puttingt DWs name on there doesnt' mean removing Treks. Now ADDING his name brings with it a sense of respectibility that Trek alone does not have, at least in a few circles. Course, it all depends on the numbers in the end.
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I agree with what you are saying. In the end, since its already brought to market it is a question of marketing. I suspect you will not see DW's name on the Trek as they seem to be billing it as their own approach to suspension (unless I missed something).

Also, since DW's name is tied to other products (DW-Link and all the e-13 stuffs) and competitors (IH and the new Ibis) lending big brand credibility could potentially weaken Trek's market stance by improving that of their foes.
 
bizutch

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,928
24
Over your shoulder whispering
Dave himself already hinted that he applied for a very "specific" patent around the thru axle mounting. Dave is smart and his design may not even fall under the same design theories as Trek's.

Just like Specialized FSR and Ellsworth ICT look almost identical, yet both carry patents...which trump Turner...etc....

I don't think either is a matter of first come/first serve...I think it will fall more under the "idea" behind each. I could imagine one having a simple, broad based design getting rejected versus the one that had very specific details outlining it's design theory and application.
 
næstep

næstep

Monkey
Mar 8, 2003
110
0
SF Bay Area, California
dw said:
What I'm saying, in case it wasn't clear is that most FSR bikes are basically single pivots in terms of acceleration performance. CC change (axle path center of curvature) on most FSR bikes is basically nonexistent. That linkage software, although not uesful for performance comparison can show this quite easily. Dave Turner (Turner Bikes) and Chris Cocalis (formerly of Titus) both realized this years ago and their product lines reflected that.
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So are you trying to say, Dave, that Chris is going to adopt the Split Pivot for his next line of bikes?

...Or just step up and use the dw-link? :D

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/264.html
 
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dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
næstep;2634318 said:
So are you trying to say, Dave, that Chris is going to adopt the Split Pivot for his next line of bikes?

...Or just step up and use the dw-link? :D

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/264.html
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Well, as the press release says, dw-link all the way :)

"TEMPE, AZ (BRAIN)—Chris Cocalis is launching Pivot Cycles, a new high-end mountain bike brand he designed and developed.

Cocalis will distribute Pivot Cycles alongside the BH brand of Spanish road bikes that he introduced to the U.S. market in July.

Pivot Cycles will share space with BH USA in a new 7,100-square-foot sales and distribution facility in Tempe, Arizona. The facility will also serve as the design and manufacturing hub for Pivot Cycles.

“Our goal is to make and produce only the highest quality, cutting-edge products by using our own machines to manufacture all the high tolerance parts in house. We are also partnering with the best frame producers in the U.S. and overseas to meet the timelines and quantity demands of our dealers and customers,” Cocalis said.

Cocalis designed the Pivot bikes with input from Dave Weagle of DW Link fame, and Kevin Tisue, the designer of the Race Face and MaxM seatposts.

Pivot Cycles will initially offer 4-inch and 5.4-inch travel models. Both bikes are virtual-pivot designs featuring the patented DW Link.

“The collaboration with Dave Weagle allows me to build on what I have done in the past and take things to the next level by incorporating the DW Link ‘anti-squat’ characteristics into my designs as well as achieving a slightly more rearward wheel travel path,” Cocalis said.

The company will introduce the line of Pivot Cycles at Interbike. Dealers will also have the opportunity to test ride the new Pivot and BH models at Outdoor Demo."
 
CBJ

CBJ

year old fart
Mar 19, 2002
12,879
4,223
Copenhagen, Denmark
Does Iron Horse have exclusivity on DW link down hill bikes? Now there are three companies making DW trail bikes but only IH making DH and freeride versions.
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
CBJ said:
Does Iron Horse have exclusivity on DW link down hill bikes? Now there are three companies making DW trail bikes but only IH making DH and freeride versions.
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Nope, there is no exclusivity for Iron Horse in any area with regards to dw-link. I think that you will see some other options in the future ;)
 
-BB-

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
I for one am pissed that you designed this new linkage Dave.
All the trails around here are already crowded, and now that the entry level "real" bikes are going to perform that much better there are going to be even more people diggin our sport and even more people riding the trails, and of course what follows is trails getting shut down. Yeah, thanks for getting our trails closed dave!! ;) :thumb:


Seriously though, all that really matters is that for the same price point as the single pivot Yakuza, people will now be able to get an even better performing bike. Why not go for DW-link all the way around? Business...
This is going to be great though if you have a buddy that wants to get into biking b/c for less $$ they can get a bike that they will ultimately enjoy more.

Now, I'm gonna go work on my 7pt and MK3 and get em ready for the weekend. ;)
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
-BB- said:
I for one am pissed that you designed this new linkage Dave.
All the trails around here are already crowded, and now that the entry level "real" bikes are going to perform that much better there are going to be even more people diggin our sport and even more people riding the trails, and of course what follows is trails getting shut down. Yeah, thanks for getting our trails closed dave!! ;) :thumb:


Seriously though, all that really matters is that for the same price point as the single pivot Yakuza, people will now be able to get an even better performing bike. Why not go for DW-link all the way around? Business...
This is going to be great though if you have a buddy that wants to get into biking b/c for less $$ they can get a bike that they will ultimately enjoy more.

Now, I'm gonna go work on my 7pt and MK3 and get em ready for the weekend. ;)
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The part about getting more entry level riders on better performing equipment and fostering the sport we love is a huge part of the motivation behind the system, couldn't have said it better, nice work Jeff! Sorry about the trail closures too ;).
 
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