the used frame market will be flooded with worthless sunday framesSo wait a minute, you mean to tell me that the dw-link isn't the holy grail of suspension designs?
DW's new suspension design. the split pivot.
- Thread starter dhkid
- Start date
Having the concentric pivot on the dropout will change the way that the bike pedals. The pedaling force is somewhat isolated from the suspension force due to the chain moving about the concentric pivot. It achieves this in a similar manner that a jackshaft does (though this suspension design is in NO way similar to a jackshaft).
"Somewhat" being the key, since the pivot is not concentric to the BB.
oh gawd here we go...
it has the same system as a Kona faux-bar (irk), except for the braking mount. Theres nothing special otherwise, it'll pedal like a single pivot....
It's good to have you back Zedro...you don't see any other advantage? Won't it at least help limit chain growth a bit? Or is it just a theoretical difference?
so, essentially, from a braking standpoint, this design is similar to a kona faux-bar with the d.o.p.e. system...ie, a floater attached to the main pivot? is that the conclusion?
the biggest mystery, then, is the pedalling performance, which you speculate will be similar to a single pivot/faux-bar?
Naw cuz the main pivot still creates a different arc. Only a concentric BB pivot would do that.
The pivot "on" the axle does absolutely nothing to improve acceleration. If it did, that would go against every claim DW has ever made. Don't read into the marketing mumbo jumbo.
take off that linkage and the wheel is still essentially mounted to the chainstay; the axle path is still circular about the main pivot.
It does make for a pretty efficient structure tho, and i am fond of floating brakes. Its a neat layout but wont give any revolutionary pedaling abilities.
yeah pretty much, been out of the loop on the d.o.p.e deal tho (just a standard floater setup no?)
don't get me wrong tho, it's an elegant design for sure, very clean and of course should be quite good. Much more elegant than slapping on a separate floater for sure. I am curious why no dw-link too tho
Yeah I was thinking about it after I wrote it. The order should have been reversed: Think first, write second.
just like cut first, bleed second.....wait no thats not it....Yeah I was thinking about it after I wrote it. The order should have been reversed: Think first, write second.
you forgot the little * deal in DW*link. you will find the results to be the opposite:
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=DW*link&word2=split+pivot
Nice job D-dub, gives you a little more freedom in design than the DW-link did. Braking can be neutral with a little jack or squat in addition to some pedal interaction, both mostly separate when it comes time to design a frame, and you're still able to play with rates using the link mostly independent of the previous two.
This design is much easier to eyeball and see what's going on than DW link.
This design is much easier to eyeball and see what's going on than DW link.
now theres a marketing brochure line I'd like to see:
"and it's easier to understand design naturally makes for a more efficient contemplation...."
but the * is a wildcard parameter...thats cheating!
You forgot to add the quotes so it finds only the words together:
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=DW*link&word2="split+pivot"
or to make Zedro happy (dw-link):
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=dw-link&word2="split+pivot"
alternative ("dw link":
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1="dw+link"&word2="split+pivot"
HAHA, yeah! Well what's neat about this, is with DW-link, a change in one small thing (say, the length of one member of the linkage) bled over into the other characteristics of the bike, whereas with the new one, it's much easier for Dave or someone else to play with one aspect of how the bike feels without changing the feel otherwise. This isn't to say that it makes the bike any easier, but it seems to be a more friendly set of tools to work with when prototyping, and may move through prototyping more quickly because design iterations can focus on one aspect
I don't know.....split pivot still wins against five sphincters
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=*****&word2=split+pivot
"..... a moderate retard can look at this bike and understand how its suspension works, so this makes a great bike for the average person."
i believe "mild half-wit" is more politically correct...
".....moderate retard ...."
"mental midget" offends two groups at once.
Man, I came up with this idea over 10 years ago... Infringement!
I would assume this design is going to replace the IH single pivots. Since it has a thru axle I would assume this is for the Yakuza Dh bikes. Also look at the main pivot location. Identical to the current single pivots. This design is still a single pivot, but with included floater. Looks nice!
For sure a great upgrade to the single pivoted cheaper models. Increased stiffness/weight ratio and better braking without added weight of floater. And he doesn't have to pay Tony or Spesh any royalties.
There's no way in hell these are going to replace DW link though. I can't see any reason it could perform better in ay way at all, but still a nice upgrade from the usual single pivots.
Edit: Does anyone else think the angle on the rocker is a little too shallow? Looks to me like the suspension would lift a little too much when braking, which can be worse than brake squat in some cases.
Edit again: Now that I think of it, since the main pivot is so high, the upper linkage NEEDS to be shallow to compensate. I should never question DW ever again....
I would assume this design is going to replace the IH single pivots. Since it has a thru axle I would assume this is for the Yakuza Dh bikes. Also look at the main pivot location. Identical to the current single pivots. This design is still a single pivot, but with included floater. Looks nice!
For sure a great upgrade to the single pivoted cheaper models. Increased stiffness/weight ratio and better braking without added weight of floater. And he doesn't have to pay Tony or Spesh any royalties.
There's no way in hell these are going to replace DW link though. I can't see any reason it could perform better in ay way at all, but still a nice upgrade from the usual single pivots.
Edit: Does anyone else think the angle on the rocker is a little too shallow? Looks to me like the suspension would lift a little too much when braking, which can be worse than brake squat in some cases.
Edit again: Now that I think of it, since the main pivot is so high, the upper linkage NEEDS to be shallow to compensate. I should never question DW ever again....
Interesting experiment on the herd DW.
That broken hand's not only got you bitter, you've sharpened your wit again I see.
good point, looks like a good way to simplify a design for saving $$$
Wow, damn, let the speculation begin!
Those of you with kind words, thanks for the support, I truly appreciate it. Haters, well, its a tough life I guess.
So bottom line with this system, it is a single pivot for acceleration purposes, a multi pivot for braking purposes. In reallity, performance wise it can exactly duplicate what most FSR bikes have done. With a little knowledge (i.e. pivot placement) I think that it can outshine many of the FSR bikes that have been built.
The raw idea is that I use a single pivot location that offers some real benefits for acceleration purposes, but without a floating brake this pivot location that works so well for acceleration would have some real drawbacks under braking. This is where the Split Pivot (the concentric dropout pivot) comes in. The seatstay link and assembly acts as a floating brake arm, exactly like FSR does. Nothing new there at all. The pivot location around the axle is the novelty and why I had to apply for patents etc...
Is this bike going to be better than a dw-link bike? Sadly, no. Is it going to ride better than a single pivot or other linkage bikes? I believe completely that it has the ability to. No matter what, Split Pivot can be used to build a pretty light bike with good performace characteristics. There is nothing wrong with that in my book.
Dave
Those of you with kind words, thanks for the support, I truly appreciate it. Haters, well, its a tough life I guess.
So bottom line with this system, it is a single pivot for acceleration purposes, a multi pivot for braking purposes. In reallity, performance wise it can exactly duplicate what most FSR bikes have done. With a little knowledge (i.e. pivot placement) I think that it can outshine many of the FSR bikes that have been built.
The raw idea is that I use a single pivot location that offers some real benefits for acceleration purposes, but without a floating brake this pivot location that works so well for acceleration would have some real drawbacks under braking. This is where the Split Pivot (the concentric dropout pivot) comes in. The seatstay link and assembly acts as a floating brake arm, exactly like FSR does. Nothing new there at all. The pivot location around the axle is the novelty and why I had to apply for patents etc...
Is this bike going to be better than a dw-link bike? Sadly, no. Is it going to ride better than a single pivot or other linkage bikes? I believe completely that it has the ability to. No matter what, Split Pivot can be used to build a pretty light bike with good performace characteristics. There is nothing wrong with that in my book.
Dave
This was a very important factor in developing this design. Split Pivot is not intended to replace or compete with dw-link, just complement it.
You are a wise man on many counts...Man, I came up with this idea over 10 years ago... Infringement!
I would assume this design is going to replace the IH single pivots. Since it has a thru axle I would assume this is for the Yakuza Dh bikes. Also look at the main pivot location. Identical to the current single pivots. This design is still a single pivot, but with included floater. Looks nice!
For sure a great upgrade to the single pivoted cheaper models. Increased stiffness/weight ratio and better braking without added weight of floater. And he doesn't have to pay Tony or Spesh any royalties.
There's no way in hell these are going to replace DW link though. I can't see any reason it could perform better in ay way at all, but still a nice upgrade from the usual single pivots.
Edit: Does anyone else think the angle on the rocker is a little too shallow? Looks to me like the suspension would lift a little too much when braking, which can be worse than brake squat in some cases.
Edit again: Now that I think of it, since the main pivot is so high, the upper linkage NEEDS to be shallow to compensate. I should never question DW ever again....
cool and all, but can't compete with the patent pending split-pivot wiffle ball . . . that thing is destined for the enginerd olympics
Can we engineer it to be a motorized wiffle ball thrower? Imagine the welts.
Edit: Goddammit, beaten.
Edit: Goddammit, beaten.
submissions for the enginerd olympics requires a beer related component, like make it beer powered or the wiffle ball opens a beer for you.
actually i'm serious. It happens in february.
Trust me, our wiffle ball game had plenty of beer involved.
wait im confused by all these words. do i have to bring my sunday to the scrap yard? technology changing i must have the best.
So correct me if I am wrong, the frame looks as it has Sealed Baring Set into the drop outs so the Axle will spin free
.