Are you kidding? Do you know roadies? I know at least a half dozen roadies who have bikes approaching that (retail value). And almost all of these are people who do not make a lot money. Almost all of them have $1-2k race wheelsets alone.
time for a new downhill bike??? went to the lbs and.....
- Thread starter ALEXIS_DH
- Start date
i meant in peru. the tires seem to be quite cheap over there...
You armchair Econ and Statistics majors are just confused.
Proper DH bikes make up a tiny TINY fraction of the total bikes sold every year. Out of that already small number, you reference top-level frames with the most expensive parts as evidence of some conspiracy to screw customers.
I've said this before: If you think you can profitably sell a competitive, top-level DH bike for less than the competition, shut your pie hole and do it.
Proper DH bikes make up a tiny TINY fraction of the total bikes sold every year. Out of that already small number, you reference top-level frames with the most expensive parts as evidence of some conspiracy to screw customers.
I've said this before: If you think you can profitably sell a competitive, top-level DH bike for less than the competition, shut your pie hole and do it.
I don't know what is so hard to comprehend about this? Jesus. If it's too expensive, don't buy it. Not that hard. The bike industry isn't screwing anyone. There are plenty of bikes that are 'expensive' that the average Schmoe can afford. You can't afford a top of the line, race ready rig? Boo-fing-hoo. Damn you Lamborghini for putting the Gallardo out of my reach....
Most people probably piss away a nice mountain bike on booze at the bar every year...
Most people probably piss away a nice mountain bike on booze at the bar every year...
You know that they ride factory works bikes right? Unless you own suzuki or honda, you can't buy the custom/prototype parts and engine work that goes into those machines.
Gotta love the populist hate against people that ride top end bikes. They're slow... they're posers.... they don't love the sport as much as you do...yakitty yak. Some of those people worked their ass off and was fortunate enough to be paid well. They love riding, be it slow, fast or in between except maybe theyre able to buy a higher end bike than you.
Get over it.
I agree with both here. I would love to ride a carbon v10 AND a carbon session but I don't have the duckets, I still love the sh*t out of my round tube turner DHR and would have a seriously hard time parting with it.
Circulation of mountain bike action(70K) and motocross action (88K) is also comparable (as are avg demographics 30s, male, $70K, etc of the readership). Sale units and enthusiast populations are comparable, the excuse of market size doesn't hold water.
kazlx you mentioned cars. Price control/trade restriction in most industries is illegal. What would happen if an automaker tried to control prices, bar internet/mail-order, or hide invoice costs? Would auto buyers thinking nothing of an expensive car being outsourced to Taiwan/China and at the same time the price of the cars going up as they have with bicycles? Whats wrong with expecting cycling companies to operate like the rest of the business world?
kazlx you mentioned cars. Price control/trade restriction in most industries is illegal. What would happen if an automaker tried to control prices, bar internet/mail-order, or hide invoice costs? Would auto buyers thinking nothing of an expensive car being outsourced to Taiwan/China and at the same time the price of the cars going up as they have with bicycles? Whats wrong with expecting cycling companies to operate like the rest of the business world?
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I take great pride in going my own damn pace on really nice bikes as much as possible.
ALEXIS_DH, I don't care which bike you get or if you have to replace parts on your old bike, just don't stop riding and keep posting those awesome videos that you share on here.
Right! There are not many sports where you at a consumer can buy the exact same vehicle that is raced by the pros at a world class level. You can't walk into a Honda dealer and ask to buy their team F1 car, even if you could you'd probably be looking at a price tag of a few hundred million ($100,000,000+) dollars.
With downhill bikes you are purchasing the highest level of equipment that is available.
Last years World Championships was won on a Giant Glory. Price-wise thats like showing up to a Porsche Club day and schooling everyone with a Toyota.
Here we go again... comparing the absolute top of the line and squeazing every buck out of a bike price with the price of something normal in uncompareable market and saying we are being scewed...
Newsflash, you don't have to buy a pimped out v10 or carbon session to be ride. If you wanna be cool you're going to have to pay the price. You can still get really really really good bikes for 1/3 that price.
Newsflash, you don't have to buy a pimped out v10 or carbon session to be ride. If you wanna be cool you're going to have to pay the price. You can still get really really really good bikes for 1/3 that price.
Yes, but economies of SCOPE my friend. Once you have a production line and engineering know-how of making thousands of XC race bikes, making a DH bike isn't THAT hard or expensive. Believe it or not DH bikes use the EXACT same materials (aluminum alloys) as xc bikes, and the EXACT same production techniques as well. They are often even made on the same lines, just with different tubing and welding jigs.
Is there a gwin replica bike that they sell?I thought the 9.9 was really close anyway.I don't remember there being a 9.9 2.0
You people don't get that dh bikes aren't neccesarily the most expensive mountainbikes anymore. Just look at the new Specialized enduro.
Already happened and people get mad at the company who does it.
Why can't we have a discussion about this? It's interesting and this is a forum where discussions are more or less repetitive. Odd how devensive people get when this comes up.
Silly comparison. Talk about development costs.
Hoo dat?
Airborne.
So MSRP for S-Works Enduro Carbon is $7700. How many of those do you see rolling around? Because I haven't seen one. I'm not getting 'defensive', I'm trying to understand how the general population is getting screwed because they can't afford that bad boy? What's a fair price? $2k?
Yeeeeeeaaaaa. People have been blackballed from the bike industry for making something that's better for cheaper......right.
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Wait so this is supposed to be 'the same' as a demo 8 from specialized or a glory from giant?
http://www.airbornebicycles.com/products/96-taka.aspx
It's a fvckin yakuza.....I get that but that wasn't even iron horse's 'top end' back then.
He responded to 'top level' as in v10, demo 8 etc........
Japanese bikes are on a 3-4 year generation cycle. That may change for this last generation due to the disasters in Japan last year.
Well, Stewarts and Reeds bikes this year actually weren't factory. They were run off satellite teams running (with the exception of the suspension) items that were available from Yamaha and Honda. Reed established his own team with bikes subsidized to him from Honda, and Stewart rode for team JGR, who had an agreement with Yamaha. Yamaha doesn't have a factory team this year and they actually laid most of their factory off-road racing squad off in the last year or so. Not positive about Honda, but I think their situation is similar.
To get the wheelsets, brakes, the motor top ends, the lighter crank/flywheel/clutches, the modified subframes/triple clamps, Ti bolt kits...you're looking around $5-7k per bike. So, add that to a bone stock YZF or CRF at ~$7500, and you're basically the same price as a Trek Session carbon.
The real cost, not price, COST of these bikes comes from the countless hours of R&D and setup put into them, typically into the suspension, FI mapping, handling and the steering geometry.
As stated above, you can get a bike 90% of the way there, even for the most robust factory bike you see in a SX event. It'll cost you, sure. You can even buy the suspension that many of these guys use too. It'll cost a ****load, and it won't be set up for you at the detail that it's set up for them. The only stuff that's so exotic you can't really get are things like the aluminum/carbon fuel tanks/other bling and functionless weight savings.
If you have easy access to moto riding, DH doesn't make any sense to do...at all. That's the sheer reality of it. The price per unit time that it takes to be on the bike is just awful in comparison.
As for stuff being overpriced, suppliers will fluctuate to whatever a market will bear. Evidently, the market bears, meaning people actually buy this ****.
What's even more funny is the cost of used bikes, if you're mechanically inclined, keep an eye out for deals, and know exactly what you want out of a bike. My latest project, which is somewhat of a Franken-Honda, but going to be set up as an incredibly capable bike - basically the kind that magazines drool over as custom jobs, is going to run me ~$2k, with a 100% fresh build that will be good at least a hundred hours with basic maintenance and consumables (tires, brake pads). I could buy/build 6 of these for the cost of 1 carbon session and basically never have to worry about what bike to ride again.
What does that mean?3-4 generation cycle?
Also,I'll disagree with you on the "Dh dosent make sense to do"Maybe if you're purely comparing dollars to minutes,but the stuff I didn't like about the track were,having to ride on their hours,putting on all that gear,having split practice,the noise,and not being "in"nature ...and not being as awesome on an MX bike as I shouldve been.
but yeah,dollars to minutes.....I try not to think about that.
Took me 4 years to get my former MX pro friend to get a DH bike (he finally did)totally different perspective on the silliness of the cost of a good bike.
Also,I'll disagree with you on the "Dh dosent make sense to do"Maybe if you're purely comparing dollars to minutes,but the stuff I didn't like about the track were,having to ride on their hours,putting on all that gear,having split practice,the noise,and not being "in"nature ...and not being as awesome on an MX bike as I shouldve been.
but yeah,dollars to minutes.....I try not to think about that.
Took me 4 years to get my former MX pro friend to get a DH bike (he finally did)totally different perspective on the silliness of the cost of a good bike.
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My guess is a few years ago the USD didn't suck balls?
Im done with MX.It was time to pick just 1 thing to destroy myself with.
I forgot to add in the cost of Hospital bills and time off due to injury from MX vs Dh.The only titanium parts that have are from MX..in my ankle,collarbone and hands. If you factor that in Dh turned into a bargain ,again.
I did ride desert but I did like the jumps of the track alot more,and my bike was set up more with light SX type suspension.It really wasn't too fun in the desert unless I was going really fast.But that's all done with now,anyway.
I forgot to add in the cost of Hospital bills and time off due to injury from MX vs Dh.The only titanium parts that have are from MX..in my ankle,collarbone and hands. If you factor that in Dh turned into a bargain ,again.
I did ride desert but I did like the jumps of the track alot more,and my bike was set up more with light SX type suspension.It really wasn't too fun in the desert unless I was going really fast.But that's all done with now,anyway.
MX is only as dangerous as you want it to be. Safer than a DH in many respects, if you have self control.
That was kind of my point!
Word...i admit that i ride more and like riding trails than the mx track. Im alittle chick**** to hit the jumps but enjoy riding berms, ruts, and sliding around on flat corners.
My local mx place is only alittle over an hour from my house. Whereas the closest liftserved dh park is 3hrs. Dont wanna bitch too hard, but with 2 young kids, its difficult on my wife if i am gone an entire day riding dh. I can ride Mx/offroad and get fun saddle time and only be out 5hrs instead of 9-10hrs.
I also think its an easier crossover from mx to dh than dh to mx.
That's a pretty sick build though!
I suggest reading the thread, and no I'm not only talking about the high end models:
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251504&p=3806941&viewfull=1#post3806941
Not when you try to ride at the same level that you ride DH.Plus,trail riding is not MX .
Otherwise,I'd really want it not to be dangerous at all and be able to throw huge whips over doubles and win every race,and drag bar in every corner,and I want world peace and ice cream for breakfast everyday,and puppies that never grow up,and....
no,maybe you see MX as safer ,but it just wasn't my reality.Now it is, since the bike is sold,and Ive come to peace with that.It was fun while it lasted,but it just was never as fun as DH for me after i got to a certain level of proficientcy and I was never able to ride as often as I needed to maintain and progress further.
Basically,it cost me $50 to ride every time I got on it,between entry fees and gas.i used to be able to afford toride twice a week,but no longer.The greenies basically shut down alot of the off road areas that were somewhat close,so it killed the early morning,Mid week,before work,desert ride.
This . I really dont understand the complaining. We are a much smaller market, everyone produces in much smaller quantities and the big companies make close to no money on pushbikes anyway so they often think of them as prestige/showcase products.
Ding, ding, ding! Which means an investment in materials and machinery with a much lower ROI = higher prices per unit.
no, you are wrong.
What do you suppose YT's profit margin is on your Tues LTD? Just a guess.
If I calculate with the wholesale pricelist I have from fox they probably could have get away with less than 2000€ for the parts alone.
One of the cheapest dh framesets on the market is the nukeproof scalp which you can get for about 1000€ with a vivid off-season.
So I think a frame costs them less than 500€
So I think minus shipping, development, advertising, labour costs etc. they made at least 200€ per bike. That would be 100000€ profit for the 530 bikes they sold and not bad for popularity they gained with the marketing manoeuver. Plus they had over1,5 Million € on their bank account over half a year before they delivered the bike.
What would be an even better concept would be a similar offer without actually delivering the whole bike but just the parts and the frame as a kit. I think minus the additional transport and the money for the assembly company they could produce an even better offer. And people who buy those bikes usually know how to build them anyways.
One of the cheapest dh framesets on the market is the nukeproof scalp which you can get for about 1000€ with a vivid off-season.
So I think a frame costs them less than 500€
So I think minus shipping, development, advertising, labour costs etc. they made at least 200€ per bike. That would be 100000€ profit for the 530 bikes they sold and not bad for popularity they gained with the marketing manoeuver. Plus they had over1,5 Million € on their bank account over half a year before they delivered the bike.
What would be an even better concept would be a similar offer without actually delivering the whole bike but just the parts and the frame as a kit. I think minus the additional transport and the money for the assembly company they could produce an even better offer. And people who buy those bikes usually know how to build them anyways.
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Assuming your calculations are correct, that's a 6.7% profit margin on each bike before all the other expenses you mention - shipping, development, advertising, etc. I think it's probably even less than that, but either way it is a completely unrealistic, unsustainable profit margin for a company to operate on. As you say, the LTD is a marketing manuever plain and simple. You shouldn't use it as a basis in any way for what a comparably spec'd DH bike should cost because most bike companies are trying to achieve a much more realistic (not exorbitant) profit structure.