time for a new downhill bike??? went to the lbs and.....

gemini2k · Jul 12, 2012

I got my 2004 yz450 with a brand new engine for less than my DH frame...without shock...that I got for EP pricing.

dropmachine · Jul 12, 2012

They cost that much because the market supports it.

gemini2k · Jul 12, 2012

dropmachine.com said:
They cost that much because the market supports it.

Because the market is fragmented. If giant was making 10x as many glory's and companies like yeti and other boutique brands weren't around, prices would be A LOT lower.

time-bomb · Jul 12, 2012

I don't know if you have any "hook-ups" but have you considered building your own bike up or buying used? I haven't bought a complete bike in over 12 years now. I have always managed to save significant money buying a frame and then parts. Sometimes I recycle parts but usually buy new when I start w/a new frame. I also enjoy having something that is somewhat "custom" since I chose the parts for it. If you shop around you will find deals. Some manufacturers sell direct and I have been able to negotiate deals depending on how many components I was buying at a time. Good luck.

Dogboy · Jul 12, 2012

Economy of scale. You can't compare DH bike/frame pricing to motorcycles.

shirk007 · Jul 12, 2012

Uh not everything needs to be bling and carbon to have a good time.

Build a solid mid grade bike and ride the piss out of it.

woodsguy · Jul 12, 2012

Dogboy said:
Economy of scale. You can't compare DH bike/frame pricing to motorcycles.

What are the prices of the top end motorcycles?

Huck Banzai · Jul 12, 2012

I find that any bike that RETAILs for >~7000$ is really really trying to be expensive.

You can hit the high end except for absolutely mega status <=7g.

Now get deals, EP and bro status - and we're back in business.

If I knew anyone that paid 10,000+ for a bike, I would probably tease them endlessly, even if they were buckets of rich. Just because.

benny_mech · Jul 12, 2012

I just bought a 2000 Yamaha WR400F for $1600, and it runs like a champ. That's less than I paid for my first used DH bike 10 years ago. I understand economy of scale and all that, but the fun/dollar and fun/hour ratios of the dirt bike beats the snot out of the DH rig. That's the reason I bought it, and I've got no regrets.

I still enjoy DH, and nothing will replace mountain biking for me. I'm also still faster on a DH bike than the dirt bike, but I understand why dirt bikes are so popular. As mentioned above, I get a solid 4-5 hours of hard, fun riding in on the dirt bike. Same amount of time gets 3 runs on the DH bike, unless there's a chairlift, and those are further away than the ORV park for me.

OGRipper · Jul 12, 2012

Pretty much all my bikes are worth more than my moto and my car.

kazlx · Jul 12, 2012

Dirt bikes also don't change much year to year. Little tweaks here and there but not many 'major' revisions, except the 4 stroke revolution and fuel injection in the last couple years. It's not really a fair comparison, because you could also buy a reliable car for what most of us spend on bikes. It really is economies of scale. MTB, especially DH, in the grand scheme of things, is very niche.

There is no reason to spend 10K on a bike, unless you shart 100 dollar bills.

tabletop84 · Jul 12, 2012

Dogboy said:
Economy of scale. You can't compare DH bike/frame pricing to motorcycles.

In europe I know far more people that own a higher end mountainbike than a dirtbike. Mountainbiking is far bigger than the dirtbike scene over here will ever get.

dropmachine.com said:
They cost that much because the market supports it.

That's the truth. The clientele who buys mountainbikes is usually better educated and has a higher income. Therefore the steper pricing. This has even got so far that if a brand like yt offers reasonable priced bikes people get mad at them because they can't believe that they can get away with selling a bike with better parts for less than half the amount of money they paid.

I sold the deemax ultimate and in the end this did cost me ~ 3000$

Dogboy · Jul 12, 2012

tabletop84 said:
In europe I know far more people that own a higher end mountainbike than a dirtbike. Mountainbiking is far bigger than the dirtbike scene over here will ever get.

2 things: it's a worldwide market, I'm not just talking US or Europe. We are talking about DH bikes, not mountainbikes in general. DH is a much, much, much smaller market.

tabletop84 · Jul 12, 2012

I think the market for high end mountainbikes in europe is far bigger than for dirtbikes. Maybe normal Motorbikes play into that too but development costs must be way higher for a motorbike like tests and stuff, safety certificates etc.

But something must be wrong with the pricing. A dh tire costs more than an average car tire.

kazlx · Jul 12, 2012

There are lots of people that spend stupid amounts of money on dirt bikes too...and are still slow. Just like DH.

Dogboy · Jul 12, 2012

tabletop84 said:
But something must be wrong with the pricing. A dh tire costs more than an average car tire.

Economy of scale - do you understand the term?

tabletop84 · Jul 12, 2012

Dogboy said:
Economy of scale - do you understand the term?

Yes but I do think that some stuff is overpriced anyway. Just look at the rapid decline in prices for used stuff or when the off-season blow out starts and the relation to the retail-price.

In the mtb sector there are people who want to buy exclusive stuff and have to money for it. Just look at the S-works carbon demo.

Dogboy · Jul 12, 2012

ALEXIS_DH said:
its not just economies of scale per se.
its, actually, the aversion of mountain bikers to economies of scale.

there are a gazillion inefficient manufacturers, because we, as a market, support it.

people like to buy intangibles, have 10 million shades of colors for every bit of bike imaginable and questionable "performance gains"... even at the cost of a lot of money with little to no reliability or QC . (think rockshox, for instance).

I agree with your points - all of those things contribute to a lack of economies of scale. If there were 1 or 2 tire manufacturers and they made, say, 3 models of tire each, then DH tires would be cheaper than they are now. Would they be cheaper than a car tire that Bridgestone sells 3 million units of annually? Um, no.

tabletop84 · Jul 12, 2012

But they were cheaper in the past. I could get my tires 2 years ago for around 30€ now the same tire costs at least 50. Retail for conti rubber is somwhere at 75€

tabletop84 · Jul 12, 2012

sounds lovely

sethimus · Jul 12, 2012

why are the bikes then so expensive?

syadasti · Jul 12, 2012

If you look at actual sales, the US bicycle market is larger than the motorcycle market. The scale argument doesn't hold up given that about 20% of the units come from speciality(LBS) - the number of units is comparable. Bike parts certainly should be comparable or cheaper than motorcycle parts.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2/12055/Motorcycle-Article/Motorcycle-Sales-Hold-Steady-for-2011.aspx
The Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC) has released its preliminary 2011 motorcycle sales. The good news: motorcycle sales haven’t declined from 2010. The bad news: they haven’t gone up either. The MIC reports 440,899 total motorcycle sales for 2011, up 0.3% from 2010’s unit tally. ATV sales, on the other hand, continue the downward sales trend, dropping 13.5% in 2011.

The motorcycle market shows gains and losses within the various segments. The largest sector, on-highway motorcycles, recorded a 1.8% increase over last year at 312,124 units. The boom and bust scooter market benefited with an 11.8% gain at 31,850 units. The biggest winner, however, was the dual segment which jumped 14.2% for the year, gaining 3337 units.

Off-Highway motorcycle sales mirrored the fate of their four-wheeled dirt friends. OHV bikes dropped 13.5% on the year, losing 10,905 units from the 2010 tally of 80,962. Combined with the ATV market, more than 45K OHV unit sales were lost on the year...

There were about 16 million bicycles sold in 2011 about 20% of those units from LBS with the following breakdown:

http://nbda.com/articles/industry-overview-2010-pg34.htm

kazlx · Jul 12, 2012

And the % of $$$ mountain bikes is almost a non-existent sliver of bikes sold.

tabletop84 · Jul 12, 2012

Ma niggah!

sethimus said:
why are the bikes then so expensive?

because of hipsters and gear queers (which we all are, at least to some extent)

No kidding. Part of the truth it that in western industry countries the status symbols are shifting from the car to the bycicle. Enthusiasts try to distinguish themselves from the masses and so on.

syadasti · Jul 12, 2012

kazlx said:
And the % of $$$ mountain bikes is almost a non-existent sliver of bikes sold.

US LBS sold 3 million bikes last year, 23% of them were mountain bikes - about 700K units. That's more than the entire US motorcycle market sold in the same year. Got anymore ideas?

kazlx · Jul 12, 2012

syadasti said:
LBS sold 3 million bikes last year, 23% of them were mountain bikes - about 700K units. Thats more than the entire motorcycle market sold in the same year.

You missed the point. Probably 690K units of those cost $500, not the bikes approaching dirt bike prices.

A very high percentage of people that buy bikes are either not bike snobs, don't have the money to spend on expensive bikes or don't care.

gnarbar · Jul 12, 2012

tabletop84 said:
But something must be wrong with the pricing. A dh tire costs more than an average car tire.

economies of scale/unit production costs

syadasti · Jul 12, 2012

kazlx said:
You missed the point. Probably 690K units of those cost $500, not the bikes approaching dirt bike prices.

I didn't miss any point, there is spread in both industries. Road bikes and XC bikes make up a good portion and yet the average price of top models from those segments easily surpass the dirt bikes.

And as I said the bike parts should be cheaper than motorcycle parts since those are more uniform across brands than frames - primarily Shimano and SRAM.

kazlx · Jul 12, 2012

syadasti said:
I didn't miss any point, there is spread in both industries. Road bikes and XC bikes make up a good portion and yet the average price of top models from those segments easily surpass the dirt bikes.

When you average out cost per unit...I really doubt it. There aren't many people on $10K road bikes either...

tabletop84 · Jul 12, 2012

kazlx said:
When you average out cost per unit...I really doubt it. There aren't many people on $10K road bikes either...

I believe the average roadbike price sits above that of the average mountainbike.

gnarbar said:
economies of scale/unit production costs

the **** is overpriced -deal with it

klunky · Jul 12, 2012

The top of the range Trek session 9.9 is more or less EXACTLY what Gwin rides.
The top of the range Santacruz V10 is more or less EXACTLY what Peat/Minaar rides.

How much do you think it would cost to buy a moto bike more or less EXACTLY the same as Bubba or Chad Reed?

The thing is if you have a budget of around 6k then why are you looking at carbon stuff? Trek make a session out of alloy that will probably get you down the hill in the same time.

kazlx · Jul 12, 2012

ALEXIS_DH said:
i somehow doubt this. $500 is pretty much the starting price of bicycles sold at lbs.

even then.
syadasti data says about 80,000 off-road motos sold in a year.

if only 10% of those 700,000 mountain bikes are enthusiast-level bikes... then the number of units is similar.
and i think 10% is a rather reasonable guess.

The *majority* of bikes being sold are not DH bikes. A $3-5K bike is a very nice mountain bike. MSRP for a 450R is $8440. Even a 250 is 7400.

http://powersports.honda.com/2012/crf450r/build.aspx

tabletop84 · Jul 12, 2012

Why are you constantly talking about downhill bikes? 29ers, Enduros, All Mountains are all high-technology bikes costing the same or even more as a downhill bike. Everyone who takes the sport seriously will pay more than just a few huundred bucks for a hardtail.

klunky said:
The top of the range Trek session 9.9 is more or less EXACTLY what Gwin rides.
The top of the range Santacruz V10 is more or less EXACTLY what Peat/Minaar rides.

How much do you think it would cost to buy a moto bike more or less EXACTLY the same as Bubba or Chad Reed?

The thing is if you have a budget of around 6k then why are you looking at carbon stuff? Trek make a session out of alloy that will probably get you down the hill in the same time.

Lol, that's not an argument that you can ride the same plastic frame than Gwin does.

Especially the alloy Session is ridiculously overpriced.

5499€

2888€

I mean it can't just be the 'cutting out the middleman' thing. Something is wrong.

kazlx · Jul 12, 2012

klunky said:
The top of the range Trek session 9.9 is more or less EXACTLY what Gwin rides.
The top of the range Santacruz V10 is more or less EXACTLY what Peat/Minaar rides.

How much do you think it would cost to buy a moto bike more or less EXACTLY the same as Bubba or Chad Reed?

The thing is if you have a budget of around 6k then why are you looking at carbon stuff? Trek make a session out of alloy that will probably get you down the hill in the same time.

Exactly. A bling DH bike is just that. The cream of the crop. There is no comparison 'performance wise' to a dirt bike that rolls off the showroom floor.

syadasti · Jul 12, 2012

ALEXIS_DH said:
i somehow doubt this. $500 is pretty much the starting price of bicycles sold at lbs.

even then.
syadasti data says about 80,000 off-road motos sold in a year.

if only 10% of those 700,000 mountain bikes are enthusiast-level bikes... then the number of units is similar.
and i think 10% is a rather reasonable guess.

Exactly. At the very least the cycling industry is raping consumers on bike parts.

It notes that about 320K unit from 2011 from LBS averaged around $600 a unit. That means if about 20% of units at LBS were mid to high end bikes it would approximately equal the off-road motorcycle market units (70K) for 2011.

Outdoor specialty retailers sold approximately 2% of the bicycles in 2011, representing 5% of dollars and an average retail selling price of $590. This channel’s trend line is stable.

UncleHowie · Jul 12, 2012

Most of you compare usual Dirt Bikes with World Cup ready DH Bikes. My father rode for a few Super Moto factory teams so I know a bit about the Costs.
Aprilia Super Moto Racing Replica: around 30k
Session 9.9: around 12k

And on a racing weekend they paid around 2k just for the tires :think:

For that amount of money I'd buy a lot of Continental DH Tires

time for a new downhill bike??? went to the lbs and.....

Tirelessly Awesome

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

gets infinity MPG

Turbo Monkey

Chimp

back alley ripper

Patches O'Houlihan

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Patches O'Houlihan

Turbo Monkey

Tirelessly Awesome

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Tirelessly Awesome

Monkey

neu bizutch

i heart mac

Patches O'Houlihan

Monkey

i heart mac

Patches O'Houlihan

Monkey

i heart mac

Patches O'Houlihan

Tirelessly Awesome

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Patches O'Houlihan

Monkey

Patches O'Houlihan

i heart mac

Chimp