[kidwoo]

Might as well do it yourself. Nothing came close to what Mondraker did back in the early Barel and Cesar Rojo days, when they adopted the Zero suspension system.

Just remember to convert from millimeters to libraries of Congress when comparing the US made bikes of yore to their yuropian siblings.

the bb height on a 2011 demo 8 is lower than the bike mondraker makes NOW

the longest turner was over an inch longer than the longest summum

would you like a list of all the 2011 bikes from other manufacturers that are longer than these given sizes?

https://mondraker.com/storage/resources/faq/path/katalog-2011-20170210132944-de.pdf

pg89

 

[kidwoo]

and @kidwoo weren't those first Mondraker forward geo frames just an inch longer in the top/down tubes per size? I remember riding someone's and hating it but can't remember exactly what it was about them I disliked so much. I still rode DJ and loved a shorter bike even for DH at the time. (kinda still do)

that does ring a bell

as in if you rode mediums just buy a large for 'forward geometry'

Given the taller end of the rider spectrum was never really served until fairly recently that does make a difference at the upper end of the size range. But that's it. I've owned small, medium, large and xl bikes because I buy them based on wheelbase, not some stupid ass road bike metric

 

[Gary]

as in if you rode mediums just buy a large for 'forward geometry'

Yeah. Back when any non DH/DJ mtb rider probably rode a 90mm stem

 

[kidwoo]

Yeah. Back when any non DH/DJ mtb rider probably rode a 90mm stem

this was 2011-ish not 1911-ish

 

[Gary]

Haha... Yeah. So it was.
Confusing anecdotal memories with Gary Fisher's version ten years earlier

you'll be this old some time

 

[kidwoo]

you'll be this old some time

if the mondraker discussion is about to go where I think is, you'll be impressed at my functional youthful memory as I swat at the marketing victims of the past

I've got about 5 different bikes open from 2011 to 2015 and what I said was correct.

there is a year when they started making an xl summum that does look longer than anything anyone else was doing, but it didn't come until much later, and their 'forward geometry' debut really was just making bikes that were finally similar to the sizing of some other manufacturers, just with a stupid stem

 

[Gary]

I don't doubt it

 

[Gary]

Current mtb marketing BS seems to be busy pushing "stack" obsession

 

[sethimus]

Current mtb marketing BS seems to be busy pushing "stack" obsession

are you above average inseem length for you size or not?

 

[kidwoo]

Current mtb marketing BS seems to be busy pushing "stack" obsession

well mondraker's stupid stem really was revolutionary in that regard because you had to put it on top of the steerer tube

 

[iRider]

Was 2001 the 5th element shocked wavy monocoque front end one?
And was it the 1999-2002 M1 that had the three rear shock mount positions? Wasn't the low mount pretty slack and low (BB)
I remember a coupla friends who had M1s around then saying they thought they were too low/slack in that position.

Until 1999 M1 was single pivot with tons of adjustability. You could run them pretty slack.

2000-2001 was the first generation FSR M1 with rocker link with 3 positions for the shock but a 222 mm shock and 200 mm of rear wheel travel. Lowest position was pretty slack but could not be used on small and I also think medium frames due to clearance issues.

The 2002-2003 M1 had the 240 mm 5th Element, same rear end AFAIK. Low position was pretty low already, but you could use the middle position with a 222 mm shock and lower and slacken it. As the frame was bumped to 230 mm of travel, short shocking ended up somewhere in the 195-200 mm travel range.

I have a 2003 M1 floating around somewhere and might also find a 222 mm shock. Maybe a resto mod project is in order when I have finished all my other projects? I wished that frame had a 1.5 head tube and clearance for modern reservoir shocks (maybe CCDB fits?), that would be my dream DH bike.

 

[iRider]

not since 2007

I'm talking about the dw link one anyway

OK, my bad. The DW DHR would not take every shock, or? Could you put a modern shock in it?

 

[Gary]

are you above average inseem length for you size or not?

Still kinda irrelevant unless you're planning to hold onto your bars with your genitalia

The "you *neeed* a taller headtube" ripple the mtb industry are trying to start is so obviously taken directly from how well it worked fleecing middle aged weekend roadie and gravel rider's a few years back.

Oh how they'll look back and laugh at antiquated 110mm head tubes and a few spacers in a few years.

 

[kidwoo]

OK, my bad. The DW DHR would not take every shock, or? Could you put a modern shock in it?

You're thinking of the square tube ones 2004-2007 that for some reason dave made for the remote piggy back fox dhx things. So it had to be either one of those or a monoshock like a romic.

I used an old fox dh with remote reservoir for mine that worked friggin awesome. I sold the bike but kept the shock.

starting in 2008 with the round tube single pivot you could use whatever

dw link one came out in 2011-2012



I wish I'd known you were looking for old, short shocks. I just threw some old vanilla RCs away last month

 

[kidwoo]

I respect a company that doesn't realize your joints can move, and must therefore do smart things like shorten stems to stupid lengths because no one can put their hands anywhere else

IE: I bought the next size up

this is almost as good as

 

[Gary]

Lowest position was pretty slack but could not be used on small and I also think medium frames due to clearance issues.

the M1s distinctive seat tube angle meant even on a M in mid position the tyre would buzz the saddle at anything even remotely close to a low saddle height unless you slammed it forwards. That noise of tyres eating saddle material was common place at early 2000s races.
IMO The M1 is the reason Sam Hill still rides such a high saddle height for such a short guy on flat pedals

 

[sethimus]

Still kinda irrelevant unless you're planning to hold onto your bars with your genitalia

The "you *neeed* a taller headtube" ripple the mtb industry are trying to start is so obviously taken directly from how well it worked fleecing middle aged weekend roadie and gravel rider's a few years back.

Oh how they'll look back and laugh at antiquated 110mm head tubes and a few spacers in a few years.

explain why someone with longer inseem length should bend over more than someone with less length?

 

[Gary]

explain why someone with longer inseem length should bend over more than someone with less length?

Let's first approach your question from another angle

.

 

[iRider]

You're thinking of the square tube ones 2004-2007 that for some reason dave made for the remote piggy back fox dhx things. So it had to be either one of those or a monoshock like a romic.

I used an old fox dh with remote reservoir for mine that worked friggin awesome. I sold the bike but kept the shock.

starting in 2008 with the round tube single pivot you could use whatever

dw link one came out in 2011-2012



I wish I'd known you were looking for old, short shocks. I just threw some old vanilla RCs away last month

Ah shit, missed opportunity. I am always looking for old stuff.

Yeah, I do know about the square tube/shock issues. But I seem to remember that the DW link DHR had issues with some coil shocks rubbing the link slightly and Turner machined the link more in later versions???
I don't think I ever saw one of those in real life, nearly none of those made it over here. Missed out on one some years ago. Was pretty cheap so I wanted to give it a try, but someone else was quicker.

 

[iRider]

the M1s distinctive seat tube angle meant even on a M in mid position the tyre would buzz the saddle at anything even remotely close to a low saddle height unless you slammed it forwards. That noise of tyres eating saddle material was common place at early 2000s races.
IMO The M1 is the reason Sam Hill still rides such a high saddle height for such a short guy on flat pedals

Or he prefers it? There is a "right" saddle height to control your bike, and it is not as low as many riders that you see in bike parks think it is.

 

[kidwoo]

Yeah, I do know about the square tube/shock issues. But I seem to remember that the DW link DHR had issues with some coil shocks rubbing the link slightly and Turner machined the link more in later versions???
I don't think I ever saw one of those in real life, nearly none of those made it over here. Missed out on one some years ago. Was pretty cheap so I wanted to give it a try, but someone else was quicker.

Not coils, vivid air cans for the first few runs

He made a revised link that would take them later

 

[Gary]

Or he prefers it? There is a "right" saddle height to control your bike, and it is not as low as many riders that you see in bike parks think it is.

Yes. Sorry. Obviously he prefers it. My point was I think the M1 is WHY he prefers it

 

[Gary]

you'll be impressed at my functional youthful memory as I swat at the marketing victims of the past

From what just popped into my Youtube recomendations it seems Mondraker recently employed one of their very own.

 

[kidwoo]

From what just popped into my Youtube recomendations it seems Mondraker recently employed one of their very own.

I made it 1 minute

 

[William42]

Just rode my wife's DW DHR for a run at the bike park yesterday, will anybody mind if I circle back to bitching about how big wheels suck and 26" are way more fun?

'bUt BiG wHeEls aRe fAsTeR' people should go stick a cactus up their butts at this time.

 

[norbar]

Just rode my wife's DW DHR for a run at the bike park yesterday, will anybody mind if I circle back to bitching about how big wheels suck and 26" are way more fun?

'bUt BiG wHeEls aRe fAsTeR' people should go stick a cactus up their butts at this time.

Maybe it's not the wheels but you current bike sucks?

 

[William42]

Maybe it's not the wheels but you current bike sucks?

My current DH bike is pretty good. It's just less good than it could be if it had a more appropriate wheel size (26"). Smaller wheels are demonstrably more fun in every situation.

Fuckin hate every 29 DH bike I've ridden.

I like 29 well enough on XC/trail/enduro bikes where pedaling matters and going uphill is a thing even if its not a priority, and bikes have less travel, but there is absolutely no fuckin reason for big wheels on DH bikes beyond some marketing douchebags discovering their professional raceteam goes .003% faster with big wheels and using it as a reason to force an industry shift to sell more shit.

 

[norbar]

My current DH bike is pretty good. It's just less good than it could be if it had a more appropriate wheel size (26"). Smaller wheels are demonstrably more fun in every situation.

Fuckin hate every 29 DH bike I've ridden.

I like 29 well enough on XC/trail/enduro bikes where pedaling matters and going uphill is a thing even if its not a priority, and bikes have less travel, but there is absolutely no fuckin reason for big wheels on DH bikes beyond some marketing douchebags discovering their professional raceteam goes .003% faster with big wheels and using it as a reason to force an industry shift to sell more shit.

I'm being facetious. Haven't ridden enough full on DH 29'' bikes to really have an opinion here. I still think the most fun bike for me would be simply a longer 26'' Legend but I needed something that can go up since I like to take my bike to stupid places.

Still full on dh bikes are race bikes so I get why they have 29'' wheels if they are faster. Just get something like the Devinci Chainsaw or one of the 170mm+ enduro bikes on mullet wheels. My Capra is really enjoyable even if armchair engineers will complain it's too small. The only thing I'd change is maybe lower the BB since my idea of an enduro bike is not that weird german enduro where you ride over awkward rocks that are not really a trail because no matter what you do you have to cross them at 3kph.

 

[SylentK]

Just rode my wife's DW DHR for a run at the bike park yesterday, will anybody mind if I circle back to bitching about how big wheels suck and 26" are way more fun?

'bUt BiG wHeEls aRe fAsTeR' people should go stick a cactus up their butts at this time.

I asked if anyone with 29 has gone back to smaller. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[canadmos]

My current DH bike is pretty good. It's just less good than it could be if it had a more appropriate wheel size (26"). Smaller wheels are demonstrably more fun in every situation.

Fuckin hate every 29 DH bike I've ridden.

I like 29 well enough on XC/trail/enduro bikes where pedaling matters and going uphill is a thing even if its not a priority, and bikes have less travel, but there is absolutely no fuckin reason for big wheels on DH bikes beyond some marketing douchebags discovering their professional raceteam goes .003% faster with big wheels and using it as a reason to force an industry shift to sell more shit.

Why are you riding a something other than a 26" wheeled DH bike, if it's what you enjoy more?

 

[iRider]

Why are you riding a something other than a 26" wheeled DH bike, if it's what you enjoy more?

The industry forced him to buy a new bike! This is what is wrong with it.

 

[iRider]

Fuckin hate every 29 DH bike I've ridden.

That sounds like a self-inflicted problem to me.

 

[Jm_]

Why are you riding a something other than a 26" wheeled DH bike, if it's what you enjoy more?

 

[kidwoo]

Still full on dh bikes are race bikes

you don't think dedicated dh bikes are just a better option for rowdy lift served or shuttle trails?

I raced very little but often going way faster than some dwid in his race run on the same trails

It's a little different now with every dumbass who's never ridden a dh bike thinking their endurpo bike is the same thing, but dh bikes are a product to be sold to consumers. Most of those consumers aren't racing them. So are they all building bikes for the 3 people on their team or for the 300 that are funding it by buying the bikes.

Super lightweight and track specific tuning is race shit, dh bikes by themselves are not inherently race specific tools. They just work better going fast over nutty terrrain. You don't have to be racing to benefit from that.

the whole 'it's a race component' is just as dumb now as it was when the trumpores were shouting loud and clear that boxxers were allowed to suck, fall apart, and have legitimate design flaws because they were 'race forks'

 

[Gary]

Whassat I hear? Is Freeride finally BACK in the RM Downhill and FREERIDE Forum?

 

[6thElement]

I've never raced, nor desired to race DH as I'm not fast enough

But my mullet Commencal Supreme DH is better than my 27.5" GT Fury and my 26" DHR as it's actually a big enough bike for me

 

[sethimus]

Whassat I hear? Is Freeride finally BACK in the RM Downhill and FREERIDE Forum?

kidwoo, longhaired freedum rider, originally from florida, now living hist last days in tahoe, free of every little pedalstroke, fighting everything and everyone

 

[slyfink]

kidwoo, longhaired freedum rider, originally from florida, now living hist last days in tahoe, free of every little pedalstroke, fighting everything and everyone

 

[mykel]

I have a DH bike currently and the last time I raced it was on 20" wheels.
I got into DH bikes late, as I was doing the one bike thing for years.
I was considered nuts to be riding a 160-170mm bike as a trail bike, but I had two wheelsets and two forks, so it did both trail and park duty. The one bike was fine, but it was a bit too much in one instance and not enough in the other. My buddies were all on trail and DH bikes and I always had to really work to keep up.

Now they are all on "Enduro" bikes for everything, and I'm on a trailbike and dh bike. But that don't matter cause now I'm broken and slow and still have to really work to keep up.

Currently, if I could I would keep the 26 mullet DH bike wheelsize but just lengthen the damn reach. Hta is about 62.5 atm, so I'm good there. Just bloody short compared to the trailbike. It is 45mm by spec, 432 vs 477, but being a mullet closer to 427. That 50mm is a bit gnarly to jump between.

Fuck it all, I'm just happy that I can still ride foot cycles in the woods.

 

[toodles]

Smaller wheels are demonstrably more fun in every situation.

Unless you get your fun from podium champagne I'd agree.

The less invested I get in racing the less fussed I am about my wheel size.