[?????]

A little over a year ago I started taking photos at a local club to promote their dubstep/electro dance party that happens once a month.

The guy who runs the thing was a mutual friend and I noticed him fumbling over a borrowed DSLR around September '09. I offered to explain what some of the settings were since it was also a Canon similar to mine. He basically said that he didn't have the time to mess with it since he also DJ's for part of the party. He then asked if I could just come take photos for the next event. He started paying me $30 for the photos from the evening (without ever actualy seeing any photos of mine). I got my DSLR in January of '09 so I was (and still am) learning a lot. I was stoked about getting any money for taking some pictures so I started doing it every month. Eventually it got up to $50 for the night and that's where it has basically stayed with the exception of a few times that I have gotten $60 and $80 for the Halloween event. Last month however he only paid $40 because they had a lower turnout than expected. In relation to what I am getting paid for each night, that's fine, however my problem with it is the amount of work and expensive personal equipment that I am providing for the pay that I am receiving. It was fine at first because, like I said, I had never been paid for photos before and it would be a cool way to get some exposure.

Typically I'm there each night for about 3 hours and give him about 200 photos from the night that he puts up on their facebook fan page for people to view, comment, and tag each other. In this regard it works great. There are typically around 50 different people tagged in each album and they really enjoy seeing the pics and making comments. At the same time I would say that there are a handful of people that make my photos their profile pictures after each event.

Taking the photos is the fun and easy part though. Filtering through them on the computer and running them all through photoshop takes a full day of work. (I use actions to batch process, but it still ties up my computer).

Here are some samples of the pictures that I give them. What do you think is fair pay for photographing an event like this while providing around 200 images?

Photo critiques are welcome too.

 

[Damo]

These are sick.

No idea how much you should charge, just wanted you to know they are good.

 

[stevew]

considering the sh!t you have to listen to while taking them....he should be blowing you while you take them.

 

[insanitylevel9]

wow those are sick photos..... all i can say is they should probably give you more

 

[worship_mud]

i think that 50 - 80 USD + free drinks and free entry to all of their events would be OK.
you're no pro, you do the pics for their FB page, it's great that you get paid at all.

reduce the flash a bit (-2/3 to -1 AV), the white regions have no texture at all. otherwise nice pics...

 

[stevew]

pbr in cans.

fire should rain from the sky on that place.

 

[binary visions]

A full day of processing for $80?

Process that as an hourly wage. 3 hours to take them, a "full day" - so maybe another 6 hours or so, that's 9 hours for $80, or less than nine bucks an hour.

It wouldn't be worth the hassle for me - that's a lot of work for minimum wage. If you want to use it to build a portfolio or make connections or whatever, that's fine - but if you're looking for how much it's worth, it's at LEAST double what you're charging and it's probably a fifth as much as a working pro would demand.

I'd look at it one of two ways. If it's a learning experience for you that you enjoy and it's adding value to your experience and skills as a photographer, or you're just having a great time at events you like to attend, then maybe the few bucks and free drinks are just a nice bonus to something you'd do for free. You're basically doing it free, though, so if it's not adding value to your skills or portfolio, or you aren't having a fantastic time at the events, demand more money.

Nice pictures, though. I'd dial down the flash a little but they've all got great life and movement.

 

[valve bouncer]

Can you get paid in mdma? Quality spamming too btw, that's the correct way to do it people.

 

[was?]

Can you get paid in mdma? Quality spamming too btw, that's the correct way to do it people.

^this, and less flash or remote flash. photos are fine, maybe they are to similar, but that shouldn´t deter you from taking them. how many shots do you take per evening if 200 are the average outcome?

 

[cyclenski23]

Another thing to consider is that he is just using them on FB rather than selling them or using them for publications etc. Once that happens so too will your pay increase!(or should!)

 

[?????]

First, thanks for the compliments.

You're basically doing it free.

That's how it's beginning to feel for me. At first it was cool to get anything, now it's a bit of a hassle as they really want the processed photos the day after the event and I am nearing the end of my thesis year of architecture and am about to graduate, so it's difficult for me to dedicate so much time to editing the photos. If I can work on them for an hour here or there when it's convenient for me, then I don't mind the low pay so much. Overall, I enjoy the experience since it has given me some exposure and I've met a lot of people this way. I would like to sustain this expensive hobby, and they are basically getting free use of all of the expensive camera equipment that I buy to illustrate my abilities and to get people excited about their events.

you're no pro, you do the pics for their FB page, it's great that you get paid at all.

They only go on a facebook page for now, but they have been working on a website for future event promotion. I would say that FB is the most valuable marketing tool for event promotion. No one would give a **** if they had to go look at them on some website. On Facebook they can tag their friends and make a bunch of comments and see them everyday.

Can you get paid in mdma?

You'll have to excuse me for not knowing what mdma stands for.

 

[binary visions]

That's how it's beginning to feel for me. At first it was cool to get anything, now it's a bit of a hassle as they really want the processed photos the day after the event and I am nearing the end of my thesis year of architecture and am about to graduate, so it's difficult for me to dedicate so much time to editing the photos.

I would tell them this. You did it inexpensively to start out so that they could see and judge the quality of your work, now that they're satisfied with it, they need to either pay you a living wage or accept that it was a good deal for both of you and it's time to call it quits.

Nothing wrong with the latter. You got some portfolio work and some experience, they got tons of photos for their facebook page and upcoming website. Just be nice about it and make sure they know you're not trying to stick it to them, and if you both walk away, maybe you have a good reference as well.

 

[?????]

I also took some pictures for my school's Beaux Arts Ball a few weeks ago that I did for free... it's sponsored by the Architecture, Graphic, and Industrial Design schools so I was really just volunteering like some of the other students that organized it.

A few weeks before that, I had contacted a local clothing shop that specializes in vintage clothing. They rent outfits for events and also make one-off modern spin-offs of the vintage material that they get it. The girls that work there are or were in the universities fashion design school. The owner was having a Spring fashion show to display their new garments. I asked her if she needed a photographer, but she said she already had one. Because the Beaux Arts Ball always has some theme to it we had her company logo on the posters. Anyways, that's probably all a little wordy but I wanted to provide some background.

Yesterday she sent me a message which read;

"I see you have posted some great pictures of the Beaux Ball of the Prom through the Decades. Great photography! With your permission of course, could I use some of these for the vintage clothing, and I can include you on the ********** blog under the photographer's page. (if you would like to submit a bio). Let me know your thoughts and if you would permit that. here is a link to the blog:

www.*********.com"

Does this sound like she wants a freebie?
Sure it's just a blog, but it's a blog that she keeps to generate income and promote her company.

 

[IH8Rice]

A full day of processing for $80?

Process that as an hourly wage. 3 hours to take them, a "full day" - so maybe another 6 hours or so, that's 9 hours for $80, or less than nine bucks an hour.
It wouldn't be worth the hassle for me - that's a lot of work for minimum wage.
If you want to use it to build a portfolio or make connections or whatever, that's fine - but if you're looking for how much it's worth, it's at LEAST double what you're charging and it's probably a fifth as much as a working pro would demand.

broken down like this, $80 is a steal for him

You'll have to excuse me for not knowing what mdma stands for.

all you need to know is that itll make you not care that youre only making $80 for all the work you do. though the next day youll be cursing

 

[binary visions]

Does this sound like she wants a freebie?
Sure it's just a blog, but it's a blog that she keeps to generate income and promote her company.

Sounds like she thinks that putting your name out there is what she wants to "pay" you.

Like many people who want media like websites, photos, or graphic design, she believes that "exposure" pays your bills and magically transforms itself into massive revenue streams that put you on the gravy train for life.

 

[narlus]

welcome to the world of photography, where it's a race to the bottom.

 

[dante]

You might need more money to do it. He might not be able (willing) to pay you more. Basically decide what price you need to keep doing it, figure out what price he's willing to pay, and hopefully work out a deal.

 

[dan-o]

Use BV's post as a template to restructure the pricing.
total hours x hourly rate + expenses (wear and tear on gear, travel expenses, ear plugs etc). Mark up your expenses as well as it takes time to manage them.

Give club new quote.
They will reject it thinking they can find another sucker (like you currently).
Walk away and let them be disappointed by another competitor.
When they call you back asking you to 'sharpen your pencil', counter with an even higher quote due to your recalculations illustrating a mathematical error.
If they balk, use this formula to seek out profitable photography work.

As a self-employed business owner in the trades, my main advice is to never allow others to determine the worth of your services. Slow night at the club doesn't make your time less valuable, it means they need to learn how to market.

 

[Silver]

Typically I'm there each night for about 3 hours and give him about 200 photos
.

And they are getting pissy about getting them the next day? In my experience, the guys getting a good deal turn into the most demanding, because they don't value you as a photographer, they value you as a pack mule.

You raise your rates to something reasonable (I wouldn't do it for less than $1000 a night) and you lose the gig. This is ok. Chalk it up to a valuable lesson: When you underbid a job for experience, you set a ceiling on what you'll make from that client.

 

[?????]

And they are getting pissy about getting them the next day? In my experience, the guys getting a good deal turn into the most demanding, because they don't value you as a photographer, they value you as a pack mule.

You raise your rates to something reasonable (I wouldn't do it for less than $1000 a night) and you lose the gig. This is ok. Chalk it up to a valuable lesson: When you underbid a job for experience, you set a ceiling on what you'll make from that client.

What kind of night club would pay $1000 a night for photos? Or even $500 realistically. I'm definitely providing them with a few hundred dollars worth of work when you factor in using my own equipment. Is it worth a few hundred dollars to them? Probably not, I don't know how much money they are making after they pay the DJ's, the bar, and themselves. More than $40 though. Of the 3 DJ's that perform each night, one of them is usually a special guest from out of town. I don't think that DJ is running a charity either, so lets assume that he is at least making enough to pay for gas and a hotel. That's 5 times more than I'm making already.

I sent them the files today and decided to narrow it down to a little under 150. Still a lot, but I'd rate them all 8/10 or better so it's not filler crap and they want the quantity for the facebook tags.

I think if I were to look at it as what kind of pay I am getting from them, free entry ($10 value assuming that I would be going there otherwise), not free drinks, and lets say $50 on average... it's worth it to go shoot pics for 3 hours that night and deliver them with an hours worth of time spent on uploading, photo selection, digital enhancement, post processing, editing and cropping.

That might be 25 photos. That would set me at just around $10 an hour... still bullsh|t and they would be annoyed that they only have 25 pictures and only 15-20 people with photo tags that link back to their event page on Facebook.

 

[jdcamb]

They shorted you man! They owe you 2 orders of chicken wings and some of those little bread squares with tomatoes and olives on them. Here is what I would do. Go to the bathroom, into each stall and pee on the toilet paper roll/dispenser. Drape a used condom over the faucet of the sink. Put honey or maple syrup on the toilet seat and the handle of everything. At the start of the night put a sharpie on a string with the cap off in a stall. Make sure the string is wet though...

 

[RUFUS]

You are getting a decent deal for not being a photographer and for doing facebook fan photos.

I don't charge clubs when I shoot bands as I get more than enough from the bands, plus free drinks and free admission.

Do not disclose you fees to the next place that you work at if you want to continue this routs, and get everything in writing.

Other than that, you are getting a good deal, learning photography, making friends and getting free drinks!!!

 

[Silver]

What kind of night club would pay $1000 a night for photos? Or even $500 realistically. I'm definitely providing them with a few hundred dollars worth of work when you factor in using my own equipment. Is it worth a few hundred dollars to them? Probably not, I don't know how much money they are making after they pay the DJ's, the bar, and themselves. More than $40 though. Of the 3 DJ's that perform each night, one of them is usually a special guest from out of town. I don't think that DJ is running a charity either, so lets assume that he is at least making enough to pay for gas and a hotel. That's 5 times more than I'm making already.

I sent them the files today and decided to narrow it down to a little under 150. Still a lot, but I'd rate them all 8/10 or better so it's not filler crap and they want the quantity for the facebook tags.

I think if I were to look at it as what kind of pay I am getting from them, free entry ($10 value assuming that I would be going there otherwise), not free drinks, and lets say $50 on average... it's worth it to go shoot pics for 3 hours that night and deliver them with an hours worth of time spent on uploading, photo selection, digital enhancement, post processing, editing and cropping.

That might be 25 photos. That would set me at just around $10 an hour... still bullsh|t and they would be annoyed that they only have 25 pictures and only 15-20 people with photo tags that link back to their event page on Facebook.

Don't worry-the DJ and everyone else is getting paid. Unless they are trustafarians working for exposure as well, fronting their own equipment and travel costs. I'm not familiar with the DJ thing-do they get sucked into doing that as well?

I'm just saying, you gotta make a choice at some point. If it's just a hobby, that's cool-your stuff is good, but if I'm in your shoes making enough per shoot for a shiny new CF card, I'm sure as hell not busting my ass to get a demanding client his shots next day...your time is worth money.

If you have a camera, everyone wants a freebie. Mine don't come out of the bag unless the check has already cleared...

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Damn, they still don't teach basic survival skills in art school these days, huh ?

Bottom line, if you ain't getting laid then you need to be getting paid.






p.s. Thanks for reminding me of the Beaux Arts Ball, it's been a loooong time.

 

[narlus]

in addition to fight for the decreasing amount of $ available, us concert photographers also have to contend w/ greedy bands who throw copyright-grabbing photo releases in our faces...this is an excellent essay. I will say that I've not signed any total rights-grabs*, and have turned down shows instead of signing them.

http://www.notaphoto.com/throughout-the-universe-in-perpetuity-why-i-dont-sign-copyright-grabbing-photo-contracts





* i did sign Tom Petty's, but he did award some compensation if any of the photos were to be used. And I lucked out in that the will call person who gave me the pass for Morrissey forgot to include the waiver.

 

[?????]

Yesterday she sent me a message which read;

"I see you have posted some great pictures of the Beaux Ball of the Prom through the Decades. Great photography! With your permission of course, could I use some of these for the vintage clothing, and I can include you on the ********** blog under the photographer's page. (if you would like to submit a bio). Let me know your thoughts and if you would permit that. here is a link to the blog:

www.*********.com"

Does this sound like she wants a freebie?
Sure it's just a blog, but it's a blog that she keeps to generate income and promote her company.

Haha... so I got a response from her today.

This is the message that I sent her in return to use my pictures. It seemed fair, her business does some sewing.

"Hey *******,

That will be fine. Perhaps we can do a small exchange of services. I looked around your blog and saw that part of your store is dedicated to altering vintage clothing. I don't need any fancy design work done, but I have recently ripped a few of my Jeans from riding my bike. Let me know if you would repair the torn jeans and we can meet up this week and I can give you the high resolution images if you prefer those over the facebook versions."


And her response.

"Sorry for the delay in responding, as for trading services I would love to but the designers only do re-design not alterations. And I do not sew myself, sorry! Thanks for asking though. But I would like to meet you so come by the store if you get a chance!"

Lovely.

 

[Silver]

Haha... so I got a response from her today.

This is the message that I sent her in return to use my pictures. It seemed fair, her business does some sewing.

"Hey *******,

That will be fine. Perhaps we can do a small exchange of services. I looked around your blog and saw that part of your store is dedicated to altering vintage clothing. I don't need any fancy design work done, but I have recently ripped a few of my Jeans from riding my bike. Let me know if you would repair the torn jeans and we can meet up this week and I can give you the high resolution images if you prefer those over the facebook versions."


And her response.

"Sorry for the delay in responding, as for trading services I would love to but the designers only do re-design not alterations. And I do not sew myself, sorry! Thanks for asking though. But I would like to meet you so come by the store if you get a chance!"

Lovely.

Nicely done!

 

[IH8Rice]

And her response.
....And I do not sew myself, sorry!....

they dont teach sewing at fashion design school huh?

 

[?????]

I responded to her last message just now,

"Okay, not being in the clothing business myself, I wasn't sure what all was involved. In that case, just let me know what photos you want and we can discuss pricing."

I'll be surprised if I ever hear back from her now. Why pay or exchange services when you can just rip off poor college students?

 

[binary visions]

Bwahaha... The low value people attach to media is amazing to me. They have no problem paying a mechanic $60+/hour to do work on their Toyota, but someone with expensive camera equipment, experience and education using it, an artistic eye and time spent taking/processing the photos is somehow worth less than poverty wages.

Funny that she wouldn't trade incredibly simple/cheap services. Even if it's not "what they do" - they could easily have profited tremendously just fixing up your pants.

 

[?????]

Bwahaha... The low value people attach to media is amazing to me. They have no problem paying a mechanic $60+/hour to do work on their Toyota, but someone with expensive camera equipment, experience and education using it, an artistic eye and time spent taking/processing the photos is somehow worth less than poverty wages.

Funny that she wouldn't trade incredibly simple/cheap services. Even if it's not "what they do" - they could easily have profited tremendously just fixing up your pants.

No kidding. Even if she "doesn't" sew, someone working for her does. If you have a sewing machine and are all set up to sew, how long does it take to fix the leg of some pants?

 

[binary visions]

No kidding. Even if she "doesn't" sew, someone working for her does. If you have a sewing machine and are all set up to sew, how long does it take to fix the leg of some pants?

Heck, if it were me, I would have said "sure" and brought your pants to my local tailor. If it cost $20-30 to get fixed, it would have been worth it over and over again.

 

[?????]

I threw the rest of those images up on flickr if anyone is interested in looking at them.

TKO Auburn May 2011 - a set on Flickr

 

[eaterofdog]

welcome to the world of photography, where it's a race to the bottom.

Just like graphic design! Which is why I'm a sysadmin now. Nobody wants the cheapest administrator they can get.

 

[stevew]

in addition to fight for the decreasing amount of $ available, us concert photographers also have to contend w/ greedy bands who throw copyright-grabbing photo releases in our faces...

i'm finding most of the places i go to see shows don't give a sh!t.

 

[narlus]

for sure, it's not bands who are doing the club circuit (though Queens/Stone Age do fall into this category).

 

[?????]

Updates...

I took my pants (along with 4 other pants that had battled my chainring and lost) to a nice Asian lady that fixed them up the same day that i dropped them off for $25.

I have the possibility to photograph a much bigger event next weekend. The events manager at the new place is familiar with my photos and wants me to come and take some photos.

Skrillex, a top-trendy dubstep DJ is headlining and the general admission tickets are sold out. I don't know how many tickets that is though. GA tickets are $20, VIP tickets are MUCH more.

http://www.ticketbiscuit.com/sammytsplace/sammytsplace.htm?Page=http://www.ticketbiscuit.com/SammyTsPlace/EventPage.aspx?EID=93218

$300-700 more, but I don't know how many people buy those.

Let's say I will deliver 200 photos. I'll be at the club taking pics for at least 4 hours and will spend at least 12 hours on the computer selecting the best photos, cropping, and editing, plus time that my computer is automating some batch processes.

From photography sites and some friends I am hearing suggestions of $500-700... in the case of my German friends, that same number in Euros.

Does this sound reasonable or do you expect the events manager to freak out and not message me back?

 

[watchthis]

In todays photo market , no matter how little you get paid , there are 100 people that will do it for less .... 95% of the time the person who is paying knows not if it is worse or better , just cheaper ...

You can not throw a rock in any major city without hitting at least 2 photographers.


Going rate in new york city for 5-7 hours of club photos is about $100 - $250 , usually you get free drinks , chicks used to think it was cool , now not so much

 

[binary visions]

Does this sound reasonable or do you expect the events manager to freak out and not message me back?

I think you have to make the same decision you made last time this thread came around. Is it an experience you're willing to sacrifice for and will benefit you substantially, or are you looking to make a living out of this?

It's all about an exchange of value. If the experience is particularly valuable, factor that into your request for dollars. If it's just a gig, though, you need to value your time and charge them accordingly. If they're not willing to pay, you move on to the next paying customer. Getting screwed on your time repeatedly isn't going to make you a valuable commodity.

Going rate in new york city for 5-7 hours of club photos is about $100 - $250 , usually you get free drinks , chicks used to think it was cool , now not so much

Taking the low end of that range, $100 for 5 hours of photos + processing time?! That's someone just selling themselves for slave wages. 5 hours of photos has to have a MINIMUM of 2 hours of processing if you cut corners, probably more like 3-5 hours of processing. ~$10-15/hour for freelance is insane. I'm not saying you're wrong about the "going rate" (I have no idea what the prices look like) - I'm just observing that it's freakin' nuts. You get no benefits, have to pay for your own equipment (camera + software + computer), no guarantee of your next job, plus the large "fudge factor" in any freelance job where you have time sunk into communication, setting up the gig, travel to and from, etc. Jesus. May as well not charge them anything at all.

 

[?????]

Well... I quoted them 200 photos for $600 with the option of more or less depending on budget. We'll see where it goes, but I'm over doing it for dirt. I get constant love for my club pics. If they just want point and shoot looking photos then that's fine, plenty of people will be there with their iphones taking pics, and they'll go unnoticed just like every other bland photo.

I based my price on several photography forums and photographer's websites and most affordable photographers are going at the $150/hr rate. That covers my 4 hours spent at the club and includes the 12 hours of post processing which works out to $37.50/hr for me. Pretty reasonable considering the cost of camera equipment, software, and computer.

Looks like it will be a great concert and selling another 30 tickets to cover my cost shouldn't be a huge burden.

Skrillex