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One of the most gorgeous tool cases ever..

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,020
9,679
AK
I hate to work on that thing. If you've ever opened the hood of your turbo-car after driving, you know what I mean. It's burn-central in there.

I'm kind of thinking of the: "here comes the car, lets do a quick tweak or change and get it going again"-senario, to which I say: "Hell no, I'm not touching that thing".


Anyways, cool case and car. They're limited to 300hp, but getting something like 500+lb/ft torque.
 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,884
450
That case is sick. Anyone here know specifically what material they use (for the foam) and how to cut it so nice? Anyone have experience making something like this?
 

LukeD

Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
751
2
Massachusetts
I hate to work on that thing. If you've ever opened the hood of your turbo-car after driving, you know what I mean. It's burn-central in there.

I'm kind of thinking of the: "here comes the car, lets do a quick tweak or change and get it going again"-senario, to which I say: "Hell no, I'm not touching that thing".


Anyways, cool case and car. They're limited to 300hp, but getting something like 500+lb/ft torque.
i know, i have a wrx which is being modified into a rally car... after doing the downpipe to straight pipe out back I started up the car to let everything warm up, shut it down to re-tighten and was lucky to come out of it with my hands still intact. Those VT cars are insane. JDM 2.0 motor with VF-something twinscroll turbo. full 3" exhaust to a high flow cat where the muffler would be. full motec800. the rear suspension is completely custom, A-arms and all. the rear gets more travel than a WRC car...almost as much as a trophy truck.

block's car...

suspensions shot for all the e-techs
 

Tracer Tong

Chimp
Mar 21, 2009
77
0
Could one of you knowledgeable types comment on how the cars are making what seems like more torque than horsepower? How does that work? (I'm being serious)
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Could one of you knowledgeable types comment on how the cars are making what seems like more torque than horsepower? How does that work? (I'm being serious)
HP is torque times engine speed, so if you tune your turbo to provide all it's boost low in the rev range you can crank out huge torque numbers without breaking the HP limit.

Maybe someone with more turbo knowledge than mine, can describe which one you'd choose and how you'd tune it to get all your boost down low?
 

Nagaredama

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2004
1,596
2
Manhattan Beach, CA USA
WRC cars have a 34mm turbo inlet size to restrict power. The entire intake system and turbo are designed around that parameter. Getting air through the restrictor gets increasingly difficult as engine speed increases. To deal with that restriction they optimized their torque output to be as low as possible. Turbo sizing, camshaft profiles, anti-lag systems all play a complex role in doing this. Rember these cars are doing high speeds relative to other racing cars. They need as much torque to accelerate out of corners as possible.

Considering 1.5 liter turbo F1 cars were making about 800hp unrestricted the WRC guys are held way back.

To see what unrestricted rally cars can do check out European Rallycross (think super moto on 4 wheels
 

LukeD

Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
751
2
Massachusetts
WRC cars have a 34mm turbo inlet size to restrict power. The entire intake system and turbo are designed around that parameter. Getting air through the restrictor gets increasingly difficult as engine speed increases. To deal with that restriction they optimized their torque output to be as low as possible. Turbo sizing, camshaft profiles, anti-lag systems all play a complex role in doing this. Rember these cars are doing high speeds relative to other racing cars. They need as much torque to accelerate out of corners as possible.

Considering 1.5 liter turbo F1 cars were making about 800hp unrestricted the WRC guys are held way back.

To see what unrestricted rally cars can do check out European Rallycross (think super moto on 4 wheels
yup. plus they are running anti-lag which gives them max boost as soon as possible. A few years back the prodrive wrc cars were producing 200+hp at 2k rpm (idle) and were making a full 4-5bar boost at 3k rpm all the way to 7500rpm. pretty nuts.

ok so the not as much travel as a trophy truck... more prerunner territory, but definitely respectable for a rally car.

I put it in this forum because I thought the tools and the suspension would draw some interest given that it is somewhat similar to DH.
 

Nagaredama

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2004
1,596
2
Manhattan Beach, CA USA
yup. plus they are running anti-lag which gives them max boost as soon as possible. A few years back the prodrive wrc cars were producing 200+hp at 2k rpm (idle) and were making a full 4-5bar boost at 3k rpm all the way to 7500rpm. pretty nuts.

ok so the not as much travel as a trophy truck... more prerunner territory, but definitely respectable for a rally car.

I put it in this forum because I thought the tools and the suspension would draw some interest given that it is somewhat similar to DH.
That would be 525 ft/lbs of torque at 2000 rpm, damn thats a lot.

Another secret to getting the turbo to spool quicker is a long stroke. Most manufacturers run an under square engine (bore:stroke ratio). The exception being Subaru because of the horizontally opposed cylinders limit how wide the engine can be and still fit in the chassis.
 

Tracer Tong

Chimp
Mar 21, 2009
77
0
So how does the anti-lag work? Is it like stored boost from when the boost was high that got diverted and stored for when the turbo isn't spooled up yet? Something else? I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that question.
 

LukeD

Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
751
2
Massachusetts
So how does the anti-lag work? Is it like stored boost from when the boost was high that got diverted and stored for when the turbo isn't spooled up yet? Something else? I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that question.
yaaa.......there are 2 types of anti-lag. Most rally cars in the US produce it through the ECU. It depends on how it's set up... it can either be setup through the motor speed sensor (rpms) or throttle position or both. Basically when the rpm's drop below a certain set level and/or the driver gets off the throttle... the throttle plate stays open as well as the valves. The injectors fire pulses of fuel into the cylinder and out the valves. from here the gas explodes in the hot exhaust and then spin the turbo. From here I know that VTcar add a charge pipe to the throttle intake. that charge pipe charges with air so there is instant pressure when the driver gets back on the throttle. this is all tuned into the ECU and can only be done with an aftermarket standalone ECU. Hydra ECU, Motec etc. as for the wrc car... here's a good explanation from subaruwrcspares.com

The item you refer to is known as a "rocket". This device is fitted to the header just in front of the turbo and works as a sophisticated anti-lag system.
Air and fuel are fed into a combustion chamber and ignited by a spark on over-run, it can be used in three stages (depending on how long you want the engine to last) and is the cause of the load banging noise that can be heard as these cars pass by and the flames coming out of the tail pipe. This system is used in conjunction with the boost pack which stores excess pressure in it's own reservoir to be fed back into the engine inlet side of the inter cooler when the throttle is depressed after shut off.
All this is coupled to the "flat change" gear shift and launch control system which is of course controlled the the ECU.
Just to give you some idea of prices:
WRC Header £2,200
WRC Turbo £10,000
Boost Pack £3,000
ECU £5,000
Engine Wiring Harness £3,000
The "rocket" system was removed from customer cars by Prodrive, and only cars still under contract (S11 onwards) left the factor with this spec.



haha way off topic from bikes now.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,020
9,679
AK
Could one of you knowledgeable types comment on how the cars are making what seems like more torque than horsepower? How does that work? (I'm being serious)
And one other thing that may not be obvious to non-turbo guys: Turbo-cars are forcing fuel and air in there at very high pressure. You make insane amounts of torque with turbos, and there are ways to bring the torque down to lower RPMs, but the bottom line is that when you're forcing air and fuel in there under pressure, there's going to be a LOT of torque when that mixture combusts. Far different than a normally aspirated engine, or you have to move HUGE cylinders with other engines to get these same kind of torque values.

Think of the incredible force behind that piston when that high psi air and fuel mixture combust.
 

buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
HP is torque times engine speed, so if you tune your turbo to provide all it's boost low in the rev range you can crank out huge torque numbers without breaking the HP limit.

Maybe someone with more turbo knowledge than mine, can describe which one you'd choose and how you'd tune it to get all your boost down low?

Not really. I'm not sure why they would limit HP, as torque is what matters.
Diesels as a rule make way more torque than HP, especially turbos. My 7.3 had ~250 HP and close to 500 ft/#s and it hit that at 2900 RPM.

I am seriously considering a 2.0T conversion for my van.
 

LukeD

Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
751
2
Massachusetts
HP is torque times engine speed, so if you tune your turbo to provide all it's boost low in the rev range you can crank out huge torque numbers without breaking the HP limit.

Maybe someone with more turbo knowledge than mine, can describe which one you'd choose and how you'd tune it to get all your boost down low?
it has a lot to do with the transmission they use as well as their diff setup.
http://twoguysrally.com/2008/04/08/engine-performance-torque-and-horsepower/
you have to remember that they use pretty low gearing in these things and they don't rev high.... they rarely see over 110mph. comparing them to my friend's turbo diesel truck, they are very similar. when you are running 50-60psi at the turbo with anti-lag turned on and a big fat charge pipe on the intake manifold and very low gears things are going to spin up pretty quick. the motor however is under so much stress that it's on the verge of blowing up. think of the pressure at the throttle body... it must be insane with a turbo spinning around or in excess of 150,000rpm.
 

Jason4

Monkey
Aug 27, 2008
338
0
Bellingham
Horsepower=(torque*rpm)/5252 Horsepower and torque curves always cross at 5252 rpm. The way the rally cars make so much torque relative to horsepower is by making it low in the rev range. A Cummins ISX makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 500hp/1800lbs-ft of torque but it redlines at ~2500rpm!

It's comical when you talk to car guys that can't seem to connect HP and torque.