[Silver]

I'm really really getting tired of the Roman Catholic Church. I wished I believed in a hell so that I'd feel better when the Pope finally dies.

Vatican: Condoms don't stop AIDS

Let's see: Kowtow to the Nazis, cover up sexual abuse that the clergy partake in, and flat out lie to people when their lives are on the line.

Fvck the Catholic Church. I hope the Pope dies a painful and lingering death.

 

[LordOpie]

Well, that's not really surprising... the Church is simply pushing their agenda.

Originally posted by Silver
I hope the Pope dies a painful and lingering death.

That's not a very Christian attitude.

 

[Silver]

I disagree. If the Catholic church was merely saying that they don't agree with premarital sex, that is one thing. It's not a position I agree with or think is realistic, but I can accept that they hold it.

To blame the spread of AIDS in Africa on the availabilty of condoms is murder. And it is about as premeditated as it gets. If I was the president of Keyna, for example, I'd send every Catholic in my country dying of AIDS to the Vatican square.

 

[LoboDelFuego]

First off let me say I hate religion, mostly becuase of and uncluding the catholic church.

However I think they have found a interesting angle to work with. The Catholic church has two problems:

1. Penitents are dying of a disease no matter how much they pray and Jesus doesn't seem to be doing anything about it.

2. People are having sex for fun.

The solution? Tell people that their protection against the disease, whhc they thouht was impermeable, can fail. That way, people won't be havng sex at all becuase they'll be too afriad to do so. They acheive both their goals, and even if the Church is lying, I think it is certainly justified, since they arent' perpetuting harms.
I'd rather have companies working on cures for the disease than stamping out condoms so that it can be spread (even if it is only in cases of breakage/slippage).

 

[D_D]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
First off let me say I hate religion, mostly becuase of and uncluding the catholic church.

However I think they have found a interesting angle to work with. The Catholic church has two problems:

1. Penitents are dying of a disease no matter how much they pray and Jesus doesn't seem to be doing anything about it.

2. People are having sex for fun.

The solution? Tell people that their protection against the disease, whhc they thouht was impermeable, can fail. That way, people won't be havng sex at all becuase they'll be too afriad to do so. They acheive both their goals, and even if the Church is lying, I think it is certainly justified, since they arent' perpetuting harms.
I'd rather have companies working on cures for the disease than stamping out condoms so that it can be spread (even if it is only in cases of breakage/slippage).

How the hell can telling people condoms don't work effectivly while they are dying from aids ever be justified?

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
First off let me say I hate religion, mostly becuase of and uncluding the catholic church.

However I think they have found a interesting angle to work with. The Catholic church has two problems:

1. Penitents are dying of a disease no matter how much they pray and Jesus doesn't seem to be doing anything about it.

2. People are having sex for fun.

The solution? Tell people that their protection against the disease, whhc they thouht was impermeable, can fail. That way, people won't be havng sex at all becuase they'll be too afriad to do so. They acheive both their goals, and even if the Church is lying, I think it is certainly justified, since they arent' perpetuting harms.
I'd rather have companies working on cures for the disease than stamping out condoms so that it can be spread (even if it is only in cases of breakage/slippage).

Look at AIDS infection rates in Africa and then tell me if the scare tactics are working...

 

[ohio]

Lobo, I know you've been trained to debate even when you don't have any actual knowledge of a subject, but this was really awful.

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
I don't know if condoms are impenetrable, but I do know that we don't have a very good grasp on the ways viruses work, especially HIV. So I won't base any of my arguments on that.

My point is that condoms may or may not encourage increased sexual activity, but if there is any question as to their efficacy(which there is, from manufactuing defects, misuse, or any other problems), then we shouldnt be distributing them as "the cure." The only real way to prevent the spread of the disease is through abstinence and checking blood transfusions.

First there is no such thing as 100% prevention (shy of abstinence which I'll get to in a minute). An 90% effective barrier is FAR better than no barrier at all. I guarantee that's a better rate of prevention than scare tactics. What you're saying above is that you'd rather see a 9-fold increase in the spread rate of HIV, rather than tell a near-truth for the sake of simplicity and efficacy.

You will never stop people from having sex, especially in Africa. Some nations you might see a decrease, others nothing will happen at all. To think otherwise is not just naive, it's ridiculous self-delusion. Do you have any idea how hard it was to convince people top even wear condoms over there? Or even admit that AIDS existed? The entire continent is in denial. Did you note the part of the article where a priest was claiming condoms are laced with AIDS? Most people over there now think AIDS is a disease introduced by American condom companies as a way to make money. They have neither increased or decreased their sexual habits as a result of AIDS, and are FINALLY just barely adopting the use of condoms. My friend just returned from Benin, where it costs $1 to sleep with a prostitute with a condom, or $3 without a condom.

Silver is right. The church's declaration, which will only decrease numbers of condom users NOT sexual encounters, constitutes murder on a genocidal scale.

 

[MMike]

Where is JesusFreak when you need him?

I'll fill in for now...

"You evil fornicators! The lord shall smite thee down to the firey depth of hell! and um......uh..... And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that, with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu--

(Skip a bit, Brother.)

And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'

Amen.


So there. Just wait until JesusFreak gets a load of you guys. You're gonna git it!!

 

[Silver]

Lobo, let me illustrate how monstrous this is with some numbers.

(These are all taken from the CIA World Factbook)

United States:
Population 290,342,554 (July 2003 est.)
AIDS/HIV deaths 15,000 (2001 est.)

Kenya:
31,639,091 (July 2003 est.)
AIDS/HIV deaths 190,000 (2001 est.)

Those numbers are only going to get worse in Kenya. In 2001 15% of the population was estimated to have HIV or AIDS. To have the Catholic church spread lies about condom effectiveness and the realities of HIV just because it offends their sense of morality would be like having a fireman show up at your burning house and spray your family with gasoline instead of water because he didn't approve of your beliefs.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego


I don't know if condoms are impenetrable, but I do know that we don't have a very good grasp on the ways viruses work, especially HIV. So I won't base any of my arguments on that.

My point is that condoms may or may not encourage increased sexual activity, but if there is any question as to their efficacy(which there is, from manufactuing defects, misuse, or any other problems), then we shouldnt be distributing them as "the cure." The only real way to prevent the spread of the disease is through abstinence and checking blood transfusions.

Do you also subscribe to the theory that removing seatbelts from cars and adding a sharpened spike to the centre of the steering wheel will reduce road traffic accident casualties as death would be far more likely from any accident and therefore people will drive better?

Abstinence and checking blood transfusions...

..you haven't been to Africa have you?

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by fluff


Abstinence and checking blood transfusions...

..you haven't been to Africa have you?

LOL......Obviously not

 

[Tenchiro]

The Catholic church lie, to further their own agenda? No way!

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
What I do know is that if I lived in an Africa with the kind of statistics that Silver pointed out, I'd be scared out of my mind. And I think more people need to live like that if there is to be a morally reasonable, "social-quarantine cure" and not conentration-camp style medical quarantine.

Does to disappearing ozone layer scare you out of your mind? Probably not. You're probably worried about it, but you're not exactly soiling your pants terrified. In fact, a few more conservative news sources have claimed it's not even a problem. That is exactly the way most Africans feel about AIDS... except unlike the case of the ozone layer, WE Westerners know for a fact that AIDS will kill you and is spreading at an epidemic rate.

Someone with HIV does not look, act, or feel sick. They do not develop AIDS and die for possibly years after you had an encounter with them. Many Africans (depending on their nationality and socio-economic class) have no good reason to believe that AIDS even exists (or is sexually transmitted if it does exist), nor do they have the education to understand the statistics (even if the could comprehend the threat, the information rarely reaches the populace), nor the infrastructure necessary for ANY kind of policing or "quarantine." Even self-quarantine is out, because there is no testing so carriers don't know they're carriers.

Please. stop. trying. to justify. this.

 

[LordOpie]

oh, oh! I have an idea!

LoboDelFuego, since you "hate america" (your words) so much, you should move to Africa!

 

[BurlyShirley]

Do they have TVs and newspapers in Africa? The vast majority of them attend schools, yeah? I didnt learn how to protect myself from STDs via the catholic church...is that how Africans get their info? Via the catholic church std information network?

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
Then why the hell is it such a problem? It's not easily contagious, doesn't kill or years and allows the infected to live normal lifestyles. Maybe it is this kind of reasoning that makes it seem like an "ozone layer" instead of an ebola. Make it real to people and scare the **** out of them, if that is their current mentality.


Wait wait wait. If the african people aren;t scared of the virus, then telling them their protection is useless is pointless becuase it wont scare them further. ok. end of thread.

Dear lord.....

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Information, any kind of information is better than none....and maybe the few of them who get the information, be it wrong or right, will convince them to at least verify the facts and maybe they'll at least start using condoms...or practice abstinence.

We can always hope, and keep spreading information.

In college I was an RA - each RA had to specialize in one or two things and hold workshops around the campus. My focuses were STDs and Rape. We were responsible for educating the campus, and being first contact counselors when situations arose.

At one of my workshops a bunch of students from the neighboring Catholic University showed up and begged us to wander their campus in Easter and distribute condoms and packets of information to their students, because they, as Catholic students, could not. We don't know how effective our little easter campaign ended up being...but the spread of information has to help....it has to. And yeah...AIDS lies dormant for years as HIV - and yeah so long as you have only HIV you're okay...but the moment it changes and becomes full-blown AIDS there's no denying the change in life and the effect it has on you.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
Make it real to people and scare the **** out of them, if that is their current mentality.

Oh that's genius. I wonder why we didn't think of that before. Thanks. You've saved millions of lives. Congratulations.

Are you really that naive to think that none of the hundreds of WHO and other social workers over there are NOT attempting to do exactly that?

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
Wait wait wait. If the african people aren;t scared of the virus, then telling them their protection is useless is pointless becuase it wont scare them further. ok. end of thread.

Go back and read my ozone analogy. Then think to yourself if you're worried about sunburn (a much more immediate reaction). Do you wear sunscreen when you spend time outside in the summer? What if the supreme figure of authority in your life suddenly told you that sunblock didn't work. Would you stop going outside or just stop wearing sunblock?

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I didnt learn how to protect myself from STDs via the catholic church...is that how Africans get their info? Via the catholic church std information network?

Oh, you didn't get your info through the church? Clearly the experience of a middle-class kid from Chicago is the same as millions of Africans in various countries with even more various cultural backgrounds.

Yes, they got their info from the church. If they were lucky they ALSO got info from a health worker, but if you're uneducated and sceptical of westerners, who do you believe first: a white peace corps worker or the word of God?

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
To tell you guys the absolute honest truth, I feel no sympathy for people in africa or elsewhere with AIDS because i really have no idea what it's like and I would be lying if I told you that it makes me sad or upset or that I can;t sleep at night. In my deepest heart of evil hearts I really don't care, I don't have connections with these people and sadly, the most I will get out of them is probably some mass produced clothing or foodstuffs.

With an uneducated populace, I think large scale testing and quarantine would be in order.

I thought about the issue and realized that if you are viewing the church as trying to get a theological bonus out of the campaign, then its wrong to send that mixed message. But the way I read the article, I thought "hell yeah. tell those dumb idiots that their protection wont work, scare them out of their minds."

This would be like riding down a DH course when all of a sudden all your armor and padding and helmet dissappears, or, more realistically, the anouncer goes "dh armor is as protective as toilet paper." Were this to happen to me, I would be inclined to brake.

If you are considering a career as a politician it would seem that you have the right level of empathy. However you would at least need to seem as if you give a rat's arse about someone other than yourself.

So if your DH armor was not as protective as you thought it was would you quit riding your bike? Braking won't stop you falling off, it will just mean you do it slower. How would you relate that to the sexual urge?

 

[JRogers]

Originally posted by ohio
Oh, you didn't get your info through the church? Clearly the experience of a middle-class kid from Chicago is the same as millions of Africans in various countries with even more various cultural backgrounds.

Yes, they got their info from the church. If they were lucky they ALSO got info from a health worker, but if you're uneducated and sceptical of westerners, who do you believe first: a white peace corps worker or the word of God?

True. Also, the role of missionaries and NGOs with religious affiliation must be considered.

 

[JRogers]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
Disclaimer: This post is not meant to insult people of any nationality (continentality?) or race.

I understand that AIDS is a horrible blight on the African human population. What I also see is that the western world providing contradictory messages, not only baffles these suffering people, but infuses our stupid centuries old "religion vs. the church" argument onto their continent. So at the point where that may be detrimental to the problem, I might be against the "lies."

I don't know if condoms are impenetrable, but I do know that we don't have a very good grasp on the ways viruses work, especially HIV. So I won't base any of my arguments on that.

My point is that condoms may or may not encourage increased sexual activity, but if there is any question as to their efficacy(which there is, from manufactuing defects, misuse, or any other problems), then we shouldnt be distributing them as "the cure." The only real way to prevent the spread of the disease is through abstinence and checking blood transfusions.

A large part of the disease spreading may be due to lack of education, but one must realize that when you have a problem as large as this, in a society that doesnt favor quarantine and certainly not extermination, scare tactics are a last resort. If people are so uneducated, or jus so stupid that they can't understand that they shouldnt be having sex if they're not 100% absolutely certain they and their partner dont have the virus, then maybe fear is the only thing that will work.

The Catholic Church has taken a page from the Art of War:

"Make the enemy think their defenses have fallen, and they will surrender to your mandates"

You appear to have a complete lack of compassion and understanding for the people we are talking about. Scare tactics will probably not work any more than simply doing nothing. Plus, that's another moral dilemma we shouldn't involve ourselves in. Ditributing and educating the affected about birth control and family planning is the key and is widely recognized as the most and possibly only effective way to halt population growth and the spread of AIDS. Standardizing sound education is the key but there are too many barriers for that to be effective. Geographic boundaries, cultural differences and language are the obviuous ones. Areas of some countries are still essentially tribal areas with their own language and customs. Formalizing effective education with little money is probably next to impossible. You seem to have a disdain for the people you are talking about; as if they bring these problems on themselves knowingly or because of their own blatant stupidity. Also, you seem to suggest that because the problem is not being erradicated that the people do not favor its erradication. Both of these ideas are ridiculous and completely against the nature of human beings. I don't think you really understand what it means to lack education and not have an understanding of the world around you.

 

[Trond]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Do they have TVs and newspapers in Africa? The vast majority of them attend schools, yeah?

Does that mean they get the right information?

NY Times had polls showing that most Americans thought the 9/11 terrorists were Afghani during the Taliban invasion.

During the Iraq invasion they did the same poll again. Most Americans asked thought the terrorists were Iraqi. Truth was that most of the terrorists were of Saudi, Egyptian and Marocco origin.

Pretty far from the truth huh?

I know NYT is not the best source of information, but at least it gives an indication.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Originally posted by Silver
Look at AIDS infection rates in Africa and then tell me if the scare tactics are working...

The church preaches against the use of birth control and condoms in Malawi, Africa. And thats not just the catholic church but protistant too. And its not just religion either, their whole culture is against it.

Its frikkin crazy!

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by golgiaparatus
The church preaches against the use of birth control and condoms in Malawi, Africa. And thats not just the catholic church but protistant too. And its not just religion either, their whole culture is against it.

Its frikkin crazy!

it's worse than that: a more widely held view in their culture on how to cure AIDS is described here (reader discretion is advised)

 

[golgiaparatus]

Originally posted by $tinkle
it's worse than that: a more widely held view in their culture on how to cure AIDS is described here (reader discretion is advised)

Wait... before I even read it... is it to sleep with a virgin? My GF told me about that as well. She is actually in Milawi right now.

The whole idea of that is absolutely sickening.

 

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by golgiaparatus
Wait... before I even read it... is it to sleep with a virgin? My GF told me about that as well. She is actually in Milawi right now.

The whole idea of that is absolutely sickening.

Anyone who would rape a child...much less a 2-year old...much less a 9-month old...should be cooked with a propane torch and peeled like an onion. :angry:

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
Anyone who would rape a child...much less a 2-year old...much less a 9-month old...should be cooked with a propane torch and peeled like an onion. :angry:

I know there are lots of wonderful human beings, but I sometimes think our species needs to be wiped out.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I know there are lots of wonderful human beings, but I sometimes think our species needs to be wiped out.

I'd certainly find it hard to argue against the death penalty for the perpertrators..

 

[golgiaparatus]

Originally posted by fluff
I'd certainly find it hard to argue against the death penalty for the perpertrators..

LOL! I love the fluffhead avatar!

 

[nydave]

No, I don't approve of everything the Catholic church does and says. But after reading some of the posts here, I think I better start going to church more often to pray for you people. Some of you posters want the Pope to die a horrible death, and in the same breath almost, say we should let those murderous terrorists alone? You truely do have your head in the sand. I pity you.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by nydave
No, I don't approve of everything the Catholic church does and says. But after reading some of the posts here, I think I better start going to church more often to pray for you people. Some of you posters want the Pope to die a horrible death, and in the same breath almost, say we should let those murderous terrorists alone? You truely do have your head in the sand. I pity you.

You've got the praying thing covered? That's so great! If you need me, I'll be over there doing some blow and fvcking that girl.

Call me if you need me.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by nydave
Some of you posters want the Pope to die a horrible death, and in the same breath almost, say we should let those murderous terrorists alone? You truely do have your head in the sand. I pity you.

By "some of you posters" I assume you mean Silver? Since he's the only one that wished the Pope's death, that would make sense. Why not just say "Silver has his head in the sand"... why group in all of us?

Just man up and say it. I can't stand passive-aggressive pansies.

 

[Silver]

He also reads a bunch of stuff that I never said.

If we are going to go after terrorists, I'd rather do it with some sort of plan that has a chance of success, instead of just going after "evildoers", whether they had a hand in things or not.

I will also go on the record again stating that I do want the Pope to die a horribly painful death. I don't believe that there is a hell for him to go to, so it's one of those small things that helps me get to sleep at night.

If you're willing to debate, nydave, instead of just throwing out worthless ad hominems, I'll welcome that. You know where to find me.

Ohio is exactly correct, by the way. I was the one who wished the Pope off in a not so nice way, I don't think anyone else echoed my thoughts on that. Why not call me on it, instead of just lumping all us libruls into one big pile?

 

[nydave]

Hello there Silver, I guess because we like mountain biking we do have something in common. I don't believe I share the hatred that I feel you have, and I could be wrong about that judgement too. I do believe that terrorism was stamped out with Nazi Germany. But I believe it was rekindled by Yassir Arafat and his ilk. I like you would like to see terrorism against all peoples of the world eliminated...that I believe we both agree on. Yes, the USA's "War on Terrorism" isn't going too smoothly, hopefully, after last week's UN vote, the world can try and put their collective heads together and do a better job. At least our present leaders in DC are trying to do something about it proactively. According to Al Quaida prisoners, the World Trade Center attacks started being planned in 1996. I'm not trying to point the finger too much at anybody. But don't get the idea that because we got another Bush running the country they decided to get even. Yes I am a Catholic, so I am offended by your comments about the Pope, and for what it's worth, I'm a Democrat too. I am open to your suggestions about how you would like the USA and the rest of the world to stomp out terroism. Do you have any ideas?

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by nydave
I am open to your suggestions about how you would like the USA and the rest of the world to stomp out terroism. Do you have any ideas?

I cut out the bit's that didn't apply to me personally...

With regard to 'stomping out terrorism' I would suggest that it will prove a very difficult thing to 'stomp out'. Many reports suggest that the latest US efforts in the war against terrorism have swelled the ranks of the Al-Qaeda's of the middle east. It also seems that despite US toppling two regimes the terrorist chief responsible for the 9/11 attack is still at large.

Attacking Iraq just gives 'em more reasons to hate you.

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by ohio
By "some of you posters" I assume you mean Silver? Since he's the only one that wished the Pope's death, that would make sense. Why not just say "Silver has his head in the sand"... why group in all of us?

Just man up and say it. I can't stand passive-aggressive pansies.

Talk about whipping someone with a shoe.....

Absolutely fanstatic post.

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Information, any kind of information is better than none....and maybe the few of them who get the information, be it wrong or right, will convince them to at least verify the facts and maybe they'll at least start using condoms...or practice abstinence.

We can always hope, and keep spreading information.
.....

What? I can't be reading this right. Are you saying that it is better to lie to these folks then tell them nothing because they may verify the facts of what they are being told?

So for those telling them that having sex with virgins can cure their HIV infection or even protect them from it is a responsible thing?

These folks are not being helped by misinformation. I dare say misinformation is going to cost a huge number of Africans their lives.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by DRB
What? I can't be reading this right. Are you saying that it is better to lie to these folks then tell them nothing because they may verify the facts of what they are being told?

So for those telling them that having sex with virgins can cure their HIV infection or even protect them from it is a responsible thing?

These folks are not being helped by misinformation. I dare say misinformation is going to cost a huge number of Africans their lives.

It the very part you qouted she said providing information will hopefully get them using condoms or practice abstinence......

None of wich remotely ties in with the angle you were going for.

Plus, she typed that well before the post about the having sex with children post. So what was your problem with her post exactly? I think you took her post in a vastly different way then intended.

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
It the very part you qouted she said providing information will hopefully get them using condoms or practice abstinence......

None of wich remotely ties in with the angle you were going for.

Plus, she typed that well before the post about the having sex with children post. So what was your problem with her post exactly? I think you took her post in a vastly different way then intended.

She said and I quote "Information, any kind of information is better than none....and maybe the few of them who get the information, be it wrong or right will convince them to at least verify the facts and maybe they'll at least start using condoms...or practice abstinence."

My problem with the post is that it relies on someone to verify that what they are hearing is true or not. What if they take the wrong information and just accept it as truth and act on it? Let me quote the actual article

"The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.
The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV."

My problem with the post is that spreading false information is actually much much worse than saying nothing especially when folks act on the misinformation.

As for when she typed it, doesn't make a sam hill's bit of difference. The fact of the matter is that little gem of HIV cure information" is being spread around and being accepted by folks as truth and horribly being put into practice.

There is more on the line in Africa, then telling someone "No those jeans don't make you look fat."