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Huh, you know what? Housing *isn't* a great investment...

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
So until recently, housing has definitely not been that great of an investment. From the 1950s through 2000, the average selling price for a house has only gone up by ~6%/year, which is barely the rate of inflation. Combine that with the fact that the average house is now far bigger/nicer than houses from that time period, and you'd probably never actually make that 6% since you'd be putting money into renovating, expanding, etc. So finally did the math on my parents house:

Purchased in 1977 for $38k
Mortgage rate was 6.75%, I think
$40k addition in 1993, refinanced the whole loan into a 15y @ 6%
Zillow.com thinks it's currently worth $339k.

Putting all of that together (including the $40k addition in 1993 but leaving out the rest of the improvements/upkeep), and their average annual increase in value is.... 6%. They're barely beating inflation, and that doesn't even take into account redoing the kitchen, bathrooms, flooring, siding, roof, etc over the past 32 years. The math really only works out in their favor when you figure in that they now own the house outright, are retired, and don't have to worry about paying rent (as well as the cost of renting over the past 32 years).

They had the optimal buying situation (buying once, living there till you paid off the mortgage) and they still barely beat inflation and barely beat what they were paying in mortgage interest once you figure in the tax aspects. Makes you wonder what the math is going to be for all of the people who bought in the last 10 years... (and what people were thinking that real estate is some amazing investment opportunity)
 

Prettym1k3

Turbo Monkey
Aug 21, 2006
2,864
0
In your pants
My parents bought their house in Silicon Valley in the early 80's for well under 100k. By the late 80's early 90's, right after they added a second floor and redid the kitchen, the house was valued at over 300k. It eventually jumped to $800k when the dot-com rise was in full effect. After the bust, dropped back down to around 600k, and now it's a little lower but doesn't seem to be losing a lot of ground as it's in an established neighborhood, close to schools, etc.

Eitherway, it's rough going. My wife and I got married last summer, and were constantly worried about how we would ever afford a house in the San Jose area. Now it's looking a little more plausible as long as we save. But until another huge growth spurt hits silicon valley, the housing market simply won't ever jump again like it did in the late 90's.
 
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CBJ

year old fart
Mar 19, 2002
12,893
4,272
Copenhagen, Denmark
The math really only works out in their favor when you figure in that they now own the house outright, are retired, and don't have to worry about paying rent (as well as the cost of renting over the past 32 years).
Well then the math works out then :confused:

To make it a good example you should at least compare it to renting. Also just because it does not look like a super investment for this couple you could some up with others who have made tons of money on houses. Like me friend who bought a town house in 1992 for 375.000 and its now worth 2.000.000. Plus she rents out half the house. She has then leveraged that investment and own several properties and made some smart purchaces and sales.
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
You also get a big writeoff on your taxes....and have the ability to do what you want to the place. There are a lot of benefits besides just the monetary. I am 28 and bought my first house here in So Cal about 9 months ago. I rent out the two other rooms and it doesn't cost me much more than it would to rent a 1br apartment by myself. Plus, I have a yard for my dog and a two car garage to keep all my toys in.

BTW, the market sucks right now and don't always believe Zillow....
 

nelsonjm

Monkey
Feb 16, 2007
708
1
Columbia, MD
I'm wondering how great an idea buying a small place at 23 would be when I don't have much money saved up (but a pretty steady job).

My rent is higher than most of my co-workers mortgages and some of them have big houses/property.
 

CrabJoe StretchPants

Reincarnated Crab Walking Head Spinning Bruce Dick
Nov 30, 2003
14,163
2,484
Groton, MA
I'm wondering how great an idea buying a small place at 23 would be when I don't have much money saved up (but a pretty steady job).

My rent is higher than most of my co-workers mortgages and some of them have big houses/property.
I'm in the same exact boat (23, renting, not too much saved but a steady job with good pay).

I think I'm going to buy in the next few months if I can find something good. I'm sick of renting.
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
I'm wondering how great an idea buying a small place at 23 would be when I don't have much money saved up (but a pretty steady job).

My rent is higher than most of my co-workers mortgages and some of them have big houses/property.
You need 3.5% down and good credit to qualify for an FHA loan. The more the better.

But....like mentioned above...enjoy what you have during your 20s. I am single and a lot of times wish I would have stayed with my buddies for a while at my old place. I did live with some good friends though and had cheap rent for So Cal. Never had the nightmare rental situation like I have heard from some people. I make a decent living and while I don't struggle to pay the mortgage, it was definitely nice being to buy and do whatever I felt like and still save a bunch of cash. In retrospect, I should have waited a couple years and continued to save/enjoy my money.
 
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CrabJoe StretchPants

Reincarnated Crab Walking Head Spinning Bruce Dick
Nov 30, 2003
14,163
2,484
Groton, MA
Don't do it. Live it up in your 20s. You'll have the REST of your life to be tied to a mortgage...
But if I'm looking at $1200-1400/mo for rent anyway, why not spend that (or maybe even less) on a house and actually OWN something 20-30 years from now?

If I can afford the down payment (which I can) and my credit is flawless (which it is), doesn't it make much more sense to own rather than rent?
 

stosh

Darth Bailer
Jul 20, 2001
22,238
393
NY
This is probably the most retarded thread ever.

Even if you did just keep up with inflation how in the world is renting an "investment"? The only way to consider that an investment is if you saved/invested your extra money while living there. Anybody who has that kind of control already owns a house though.
 

zdubyadubya

Turbo Monkey
Apr 13, 2008
1,273
96
Ellicott City, MD
Don't do it. Live it up in your 20s. You'll have the REST of your life to be tied to a mortgage...
agreed. while you may be sick of renting, renting affords flexibility. that and the landlord gets to pay for anything that breaks. :-) Im in the same situation, early twenties, wanted to buy, made good money, but chose to rent, and then the housing market crashed and the townhome i was looking at lost 50k in value. i will continue to rent until wife/kid dictate otherwise.
 

nelsonjm

Monkey
Feb 16, 2007
708
1
Columbia, MD
Don't do it. Live it up in your 20s. You'll have the REST of your life to be tied to a mortgage...
How much more tied in am I with a mortgage than with rent contracts (ok, perhaps a dumb question)? I can always sell the place... at least I would get money back. Since the house market is down right now, it seems it would be smart to buy too.

With a house, I would get money back, pay less each month, and have more freedoms inside the residence. I would also get tax incentives.

With this apartment, I'm never going to get money back, pay more per month, and have less freedoms.

The rent contracts are awful around here too.. year long, need to give them 2 months notice when you leave (even at the end of your contract!), and maintenance is easier to do yourself than get folks around here to budge. It's not just this complex either.
 
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SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,974
12,893
In a van.... down by the river
How much more tied in am I with a mortgage than with rent contracts (ok, perhaps a dumb question)? I can always sell the place... at least I would get money back.
There's no guarantee you're going to get your money back... do you know how much real estate agents charge? Also - you're responsible for ALL the maintenance... it may get done quicker than where you're renting, but it'll be a LOT more out of your pocket... unless you do it yourself. But then you can plan on spending a BUNCH of time f**king around with your "investment" that could be better spent riding.

Oh - and don't forget about very possibly NOT being able to see your house when you want to sell for anywhere from 6-24 months. You think two months notice is bad... :D

Home ownership is a PITA and I would SERIOUSLY recommend waiting. Seriously.

Then again - it could work for you if you're a stodgy stick-in-the-mud that wants nothing more than to tie himself down to a piece of land with a hut built on it for the next 20 years.

Oh - and just to be clear - those 20 years are gonna FLY by... so I'd still suggest living it up while you're young.

HTH.
 

KavuRider

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2006
2,565
4
CT
There's no guarantee you're going to get your money back... do you know how much real estate agents charge? Also - you're responsible for ALL the maintenance... it may get done quicker than where you're renting, but it'll be a LOT more out of your pocket... unless you do it yourself. But then you can plan on spending a BUNCH of time f**king around with your "investment" that could be better spent riding.

Oh - and don't forget about very possibly NOT being able to see your house when you want to sell for anywhere from 6-24 months. You think two months notice is bad... :D

Home ownership is a PITA and I would SERIOUSLY recommend waiting. Seriously.

Then again - it could work for you if you're a stodgy stick-in-the-mud that wants nothing more than to tie himself down to a piece of land with a hut built on it for the next 20 years.

Oh - and just to be clear - those 20 years are gonna FLY by... so I'd still suggest living it up while you're young.

HTH.

All true. Listen to this. Sound advice. And that's coming from someone who bought a place around your age.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
I think owning a place kicks ass.
Lots of work, and certainly costly, but overall I find it very rewarding. Don't care if it's a "great investment" or not, it's MINE.
 

Da Peach

Outwitted by a rodent
Jul 2, 2002
13,688
4,926
North Van
I think owning a place kicks ass.
Lots of work, and certainly costly, but overall I find it very rewarding. Don't care if it's a "great investment" or not, it's MINE.
Sitting on the porch in a rocking chair guarding your apartment with a shotgun just isn't the same...
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
I think owning a place kicks ass.
Lots of work, and certainly costly, but overall I find it very rewarding. Don't care if it's a "great investment" or not, it's MINE.
Yup, same here. Bought in late '07, and since then we've ripped holes in walls (ok, had a contractor do that one), redid the bathroom, put in a vegetable garden, put in a front patio, etc, none of which would have been possible with renting. However, I mainly look at it as someplace to call home, and to not have to rent. I'm not looking to sell it for a million dollars in another 2 years so I can buy a bigger McMansion. :)
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Sitting on the porch in a rocking chair guarding your apartment with a shotgun just isn't the same...
And finger-painting the walls with a mixture your own feces and congealed squirrel blood tends to get you in trouble as a renter too. F*** that noise.
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
Don't do it. Live it up in your 20s. You'll have the REST of your life to be tied to a mortgage...
Whats the difference between rent & mortgage? You still need a roof over your head, or in Blues place a car roof with a manual sun roof.

If you have the means do it, now is the time. I see the market starting to slowly climb back. I believe a lot of it is media driven. Once the media says things are going well, they will be out in droves and prices will again go up. Maybe not nearly as aggressive as a few years back, but they will go up. It's the perfect time to buy for first time buyers.
 

buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
I did just fine on my house. My mortage is less than the rent would be and I have compete control so I can do things like get a nice gas stove and a huge bathtube and a veggie garden. Things that are hard/impossible for renter.
But you're right, if I bought now, it woulsd be too much money.

Still, the major arguement for buying a house is for when you retire. Having to pay rent out of a $1400 SS check and a dwindling 401k isn't attractive.
 

ridiculous

Turbo Monkey
Jan 18, 2005
2,907
1
MD / NoVA
Forbes did an article on this a couple of months back which explains the best times/area to rent/own. The verbage is a bit technical but they did a thorough job.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
40,453
16,991
Riding the baggage carousel.
If you love what your doing and love the town your in, I see no reason not to but right now. Interest rates are about as low as there ever going to get and there are lots of places available. Keep in mind though what everyone is saying about owning a place, it is an anchor, if I could make it make sense I'd go back to Oregon but when I'm rational about it were better off staying. A home is also a ton of work. Excpet for the prospect of paying off a place and not having to sweat rent/payment when your old, i'm not entirely conviced buying is a smart move, especially when your young. That said, the wife and I are on track to have ours paid off in 16 years, just in time for our daughter to hopefully, go to college.
 

Crashby

Monkey
Jan 26, 2003
947
1
Rochester, NY
There is an amazing difference of 'is it worth it' depending on where you are living (how much properties cost... property taxes... vs. rents, etc...)

Good place to start if you are talking strictly financial is here:
linky

Once you factor in all your variables, find out your break-even point. I dont have a mortgage, yet my 'break even' is still about $750/month in rent vs. owning my current home because my property taxes are somewhat high.

Again, depending on where you live, you might be amazed at how similar financially renting is to owning. So... if its a 'tie', you have to move on to the intangible benefits of home ownership and/or renting, depending on what is important to you.

I just turned 40 and I'm on my 7th house. Granted, I'm a small time flipper, but its been one of the best decisions of my life to dabble in real estate.
 

KavuRider

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2006
2,565
4
CT
I'm definitely not a hippie...

But being tied down to a mortgage right now kinda sucks. I have no interest in putting any more money than necessary into my current house, its just not worth it. If it was in a nicer area or something, sure.

Honestly, I wish I had sold it when the market was at its peak, I would have made some good dough. But, I was told by many to "just hang in there" and so I did. I regret that now...

A house is a house to me, just like a car is a car. I feel no different about my house than I did about my apartment. Its all meh to me. It serves a purpose and that's it.

I should probably add that I'm 25 and I only lived in one apartment on my own before I bought this place (I think I was 19).
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Would you rather have your own car or rely on public transportation?
Don't you mean... "wouldn't you rather buy your own car than lease one?"

Debatable.

I think he'd rather have his own house than live in public housing though. For sure.
 

Da Peach

Outwitted by a rodent
Jul 2, 2002
13,688
4,926
North Van
I'm struggling with the concept of home ownership myself... My rent is retarded, but man, my place is awesome.

Of course, a yard would be nice... and a garage... and screens on the windows (to keep the vermin out...)

Of course it's 5 mins from work, 20 mins or so from the Shore, and walking distance to anything my yuppie heart desires...

My rent, however, is probably about $300 a month less than a mortgage would be on my place. Wrap your head around that one!
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
Seriously - you're not this dumb. Right?
Well, you have people saying a mortgage most likely will be less than their current rent. I guess I am dumb if I'd rather buy a house for the same amount as it is to rent and have something to show for it. That's just me though.

I rather be giving my money to the bank instead of the landlord giving it to the bank.