I am willing ot bet if the frame is made by anyone other then honda, it will be a manufacturer in taiwan or japan, not kinesis.
I think butch was just throwing a name out.
I think butch was just throwing a name out.
HONDA... A picture says a thousand words
- Thread starter humprabbit
- Start date
Do you honestly think this thread is anything other than e-speculation?Ian Collins said:
of course not! isnt it fun :dancing:WheelieMan said:
geez, people cant discuss their thoughts ideas and opnions? if this place was run like an encyclopedia it'd be pretty boring.thaflyinfatman said:hahaha don't we all
But seriously... 100 odd posts, 50 or so completely speculative theories on what Honda is planning to do with the bike, another 50 BS conspiracy theories, and somewhere in there a whole shïtload of pseudoeconomists who are coming up with inane dribble about whether Honda can manufacture a freakin pushbike at a reasonable cost.
Please people, shut the hell up until you're actually SURE of what you're saying, because this has been the most uninformative, overwanked, unreliable, speculative thread I've ever read.
Or maybe after 100 odd posts and you being the only complainer, maybe the minority should shut the hell up instead...
naw, thats not a big deal at all, plastic molds are pretty straight foward and simple to produce, especially for a clean and open design like a case (look at all the cheap injection molded parts on low end gear). Forgings and metal castings can be alot more complicated however, for example the lenghts the big S went for the Demo9 is a bit nutty.Ian Collins said:
If a picture is worth a thousand words how about some more pictures of the "production" Honda.
......nice looking bike, but.........................can you use it for freeriding? :devil:
old one right ?!
copy/paste:
"Greg Minaar's Honda DH bicycle, $70,000US, Team G-Cross Honda."
copy/paste:
"Greg Minaar's Honda DH bicycle, $70,000US, Team G-Cross Honda."
According to Honda (engineer i talked to Sept. 04 @ Masters in Bromont), Greg has 2 bikes in North America and 2 in Europe. He essentially races the same one all the time on each continent unless there is a problem with it.seismic said:
This may have changed for 05 since the bike did undergo some changes.
What you said, they would be cheap as a cheap thing if they only intend making small numbers, making a die last for a long prodution run gets expensive.zedro said:
And by cheap Im talking about under $20 000 US for both dies, which is small change compared to one to make 20 000+ front mudguards for a CR.
what a bunch of idiots you all are.
look, we know the bike is gonna be cheap because it'll be made by child slave labor. those same laborers also work the sex trade, and will buy the dh bike using stolen credit cards of their customers, so that'll boost sales a good bit.
and my god, 150 posts and no one has asked if it'll come in rootbeer?
look, we know the bike is gonna be cheap because it'll be made by child slave labor. those same laborers also work the sex trade, and will buy the dh bike using stolen credit cards of their customers, so that'll boost sales a good bit.
and my god, 150 posts and no one has asked if it'll come in rootbeer?
yeah, but with long production runs you make that back through volume. Anyways the point was its not even close to being beyond a bike makers (or outsourcers) capability, there are tons of molded plastics, casting, forgings, hydroformings, all sorts of processes in the bike industry. Hell, modern high end bikes seem to have more technologically advanced manufacturing than alot of modern airplanes. It doesnt take a massive company like Honda to release a product with a hunk of plastic on it, and lets not forget they probably chose that material because it is so much cheaper than any alternative.Percy said:
Besides, i'm guessing its a vacuum-mold part, and not injected, with is really cheap and easy.
whats wrong with the levers? i ride mine like that.Changleen said:The bike in the very first pic in this thread had not been set up to ride. Note the ghey saddle and angle of the brake levers.
less strain on my wrists. my fingers, hands and arms are all parallel.
i ride a pretty small seat to.
Oh for cripes sake-
If I had the opprotunity/finances to buy one of these, I would.
I get a leg up on the competition, the best bike on the market, blah, blah.
We had the chance (here in the Southeast) to see and ride the Specialized Demo before it was released. (Thanks Chris) When it came out, it was the 'do all end all' of DH bikes. Low CG, great suspension, blah blah.
Now everyone has one...
Look at the Honda really close. It's a high single pivot - super 8- linear drive shock. The only advantage it has is the gearbox. I want a gearbox bike. Takes out all the complication of the drivetrain. WOOOHOOO. Gt is on the right track as is Hayes. I don't think GT's gearbox will hold up. I think it will eventually fail.The Nexus hub is a POS. Hayes has a great idea, pretty much the same as Honda- and they will licsense it. At least that is the last I read.
B1 (Ithink) is using the Hayes system in their GB bike.
Also- hasn't Nicolai been doing this for years? I know the bikes are heavy, but isn't it the same thing?
If I had the opprotunity/finances to buy one of these, I would.
I get a leg up on the competition, the best bike on the market, blah, blah.
We had the chance (here in the Southeast) to see and ride the Specialized Demo before it was released. (Thanks Chris) When it came out, it was the 'do all end all' of DH bikes. Low CG, great suspension, blah blah.
Now everyone has one...
Look at the Honda really close. It's a high single pivot - super 8- linear drive shock. The only advantage it has is the gearbox. I want a gearbox bike. Takes out all the complication of the drivetrain. WOOOHOOO. Gt is on the right track as is Hayes. I don't think GT's gearbox will hold up. I think it will eventually fail.The Nexus hub is a POS. Hayes has a great idea, pretty much the same as Honda- and they will licsense it. At least that is the last I read.
B1 (Ithink) is using the Hayes system in their GB bike.
Also- hasn't Nicolai been doing this for years? I know the bikes are heavy, but isn't it the same thing?
what does that have to do with me being short or not??Changleen said:
you want to strain the muscles in your wrist and arms more than you have to, go ahead. just think of how far forward your hands are rotated on a steep descent and how much more you have to work your muscles to keep them in that position as opposed to a more natural parallel position.
Wow, touchy. I don't have any problem with people discussing their thoughts/ideas/opinions on the proviso that they don't make BS claims about what a company they have nothing to do with, is going to do. That's all.zedro said:geez, people cant discuss their thoughts ideas and opnions? if this place was run like an encyclopedia it'd be pretty boring.
Or maybe after 100 odd posts and you being the only complainer, maybe the minority should shut the hell up instead...
Just thought that I'd chime in since Knolly was mentioned by Gonzostrike earlier.zedro said:
In terms of manufacturing, there are many, many facilities in the bicycle industry that could manufacture a frame like that. Don't kid yourelf - there are some very sophisticated and EFFICIENT manufacturing facilities out there. While they may be smaller scale than an automobile assembly facility, no one is going to invest the many billions required to make a car assembly line in a bicycle manufacturing facility.
Secondly, as Zedro and others have mentioned, most automobile companies outsource MOST of their components to outside vendors. A car probably has most of its components built by subcontractors: the automobile manufacturer's efficiency is in engineering design, assembly and high volume pricing advantages. Why should they set up and manage a wire harness facility when they can get 10 different suppliers to compete to offer the lowest price instead?
As an interesting case, check out Sapa Inc. This is the Swedish based company that bought out Anodizing Inc in Portland a few years ago. The Portland facility makes a huge number of high end US made bicycles (many 10s of thousands). However, did you also know that about a quarter of Sapa's multi-billion dollar busines is in providing custom aluminum extrusions and formed (either stamped or hydroformed) parts to the automobile industry? Don't for a second think that the Portland facility isn't up to date on what those technics are. If they need a certain shaped part in high volume, they just near net extrude it, form it, or have it forged (their extrusion facility is 5 minutes down the road, complete with a 3.7 MILLION POUND press). Being an aluminum supplier, they can manufacture extrusion dies very cost effectively and have close ties to stamping and forging facilities.
While production run volume certainly can reduce costs, it's NOT the only factor. It's an asymptotic reduction in cost - eventually, it starts to plateau. Quality of materials, quality control, design, cost and quality of supplied parts (fasteners, bearings, materials, finishing etc...) all add up. Yes, with a company like ours, our tooling costs are spread over fewer frames and hence the costs are slightly more expensive. However, if we made 2000 V-tach frames at a time (compared to say 50 or 100), the cost wouldn't drop that much, certainly not by half - not even close to 25%. This is because we do things that are inherently more expensive in manufacturing to make a very high quality product.
Look at the engine in a Porsche: it has double the bearings in it than most car engines: one between each cylinder instead of one between every second cylinder. Additionally, they are INA and FAG brand bearings, from Germany (now the same company since INA bought out FAG - unfortunate English accronym!) not some mid or low quality bearing from the cheapest manufacturer (INA is the same brand of bearings that we use in our frames for the exact same reasons). That is why a Porsche engine can go sit at 6500 RMP for hours: high quality parts and more of them. No matter how efficient and large scale your manufacturing is, it's simply going to cost more than fewer, cheaper parts.
One last thing: big comanies have to manufacture for the mass markets, because they typically can't compete in the high end market place. They have such huge overheads and generally slower turn around times (lots of middle management) that small production runs are simply not cost effective. Another great example is the audio industry (or in other niche markets, like the watch or clothing industry): you'd think that Sony, JVC, Toshiba, etc... would be able to make the best equipment in the world simply because of their resources. On the outside, there are lots of dials, buttons and funky blinking lights, but on the inside, the wires are pinner, the transformers are cheap not torroidal, and the power circuits typically aren't very well isolated from the amplifaction circuits.
The real high end in that industry is run by a bunch of companies that most of us have never heard of: Krell, Mark Levinson, Classe, Dynaudio, Martin Logan, Focal etc... Even the "entry level" high end audio is fairly unknown to most people (Marantz, Adcom, NAD, NHT, Paradigm...). There are many hundreds of companies that exist successfully that are WAY ABOVE the quality and performance of the big multi-nationals. They are the niche market brands, but if you have the interest and the money, then these products have value for you. A friend has a set of B&W 801 speakers connected through Classe Monoblocks driven by a ridiculously expensive Krell pre-amp CD player system. Yes, the sound is mind blowingly good. However, not everyone can afford the probably $50K retail price of such an audio system (I certainly can't!).
Just another opinion from someone with a pretty solid manufacturing back ground
Noel Buckley
Good to hear info from someone who is in the mix.
What do Alec Baldwin and the Film Actors Guild have to do with bearings?knollybikes.com said:
I learn something every time I read your posts... Thanks for some of the interesting info, both bike related and non-bike related.knollybikes.com said:Just another opinion from someone with a pretty solid manufacturing back ground
Noel Buckley
thanks Noel, a solid reponse.
Yeah....I hate I had to slog through ten pages to get to that post, but it explained a lot.atrokz said:
Not really, the costs for injection molds and forging tools are very similar, the only difference ussually is that you need an extra tool for some forgings to produce a blank that is the correct shape for the process. Also there are some forging processes that are 2-step processes, like a brake lever for example. This requires 2 forging tools.zedro said:
Volume is what makes injected parts cost effective or cost prohibitive. You see lots of lower cost items using injected parts because costs drop dramatically when you start talking milions of parts. Same with forging. In some cases though, the processes are used to get a specific mechanical property, even though the volumes are really too low to make a cost improvement. Such is the case with the e.thirteen bashguards, and the forged uprights on an Iron Horse Sunday. I'd guess the same is true with the Demo 9 uprights also.
dw
I'm going to add one more thing to this, something that I've said (and Im sure lots of others have) in the past.
Because of the human power requirement in bikes, you will NEVER see a lightweight and strong bike that is super affordable.
A stock, off the shelf motocross bike uses manufacturing tecnonolgy that is on the scale of your typical WAL MART bike. It does uses better bearings, and some better materials, but don't kid yourselves. Cast components, and MIG welded mild steel frames are the norm. They can do this because there is an engine to push around the bike, and regulations in racing. If you think RC or Bubba is riding a stock bike, I'll fill you in. They're not, wehreas Sam Hill rides a bone stock Iron Horse Sunday. The one that he raced at the World Championships in 04 was a bike from the Taiwan factory, not a USA made factory frame, but a World Cup frame. True. That will most likely never happen in moto.
Also Noel is right on about factories and their capablities, and dont think for a second that the USA is the only place that can do it right. The nicest factory that I have ever been to is in Mainland China. Surprising but true.
I've written volumes on this in the past, the search function can find it I bet.
dw
Because of the human power requirement in bikes, you will NEVER see a lightweight and strong bike that is super affordable.
A stock, off the shelf motocross bike uses manufacturing tecnonolgy that is on the scale of your typical WAL MART bike. It does uses better bearings, and some better materials, but don't kid yourselves. Cast components, and MIG welded mild steel frames are the norm. They can do this because there is an engine to push around the bike, and regulations in racing. If you think RC or Bubba is riding a stock bike, I'll fill you in. They're not, wehreas Sam Hill rides a bone stock Iron Horse Sunday. The one that he raced at the World Championships in 04 was a bike from the Taiwan factory, not a USA made factory frame, but a World Cup frame. True. That will most likely never happen in moto.
Also Noel is right on about factories and their capablities, and dont think for a second that the USA is the only place that can do it right. The nicest factory that I have ever been to is in Mainland China. Surprising but true.
I've written volumes on this in the past, the search function can find it I bet.
dw
Tarpon said:What do Alec Baldwin and the Film Actors Guild have to do with bearings?
America, F__K YEAH !!
Be One developped the system and Hayes bought it.
Nico Vink's still testing a DH proto with the Gearbox system, its called PETESPEED.
Sure the Honda looks tits and its got a lot of exotic components but non of us have a clue about what it rides like. Im not a big fan of single pivot bikes and I dont see why this one should be different.
Im not saying its a crappy bike cause obviously its capable of great things but I think its getting a lot of its attention as a result of marketing and fancy comonents.
Its a great looking bike for sure but if I rather have a nice multi pivot bike like the Be One or my v10 with a gear box.
Slam some SHOWA suspension and Akebono brakes on this baby and the WOW factor would be bigger then the Honda's.
I find it funny how most riders & racers say they hate a single pivot, they don't work well etc...meanwhile some of the fastest guys ont he WC are on them.
Makes ya wonder...marketing departments sure are at work hard trying to convince us that single pivots don't work.
Gracia, Peat, Minnaar, Leikhonen, vasquez, pascal, all 3 athertons.
edit: i speal gud
Makes ya wonder...marketing departments sure are at work hard trying to convince us that single pivots don't work.
Gracia, Peat, Minnaar, Leikhonen, vasquez, pascal, all 3 athertons.
edit: i speal gud
Im not saying I hate them. I just like the feeling of most multi pivot's better.
I dont give a rats ass about how SC is raving about VPP being super stable and how it has no pedal bob cause it does have pedal bob.
I just like that it tracks like its on rails and how it sucks everything up like your on a magic carpet. People sometimes tell me they can actually see my rear wheel sticking to the ground like its a fukkin magnet or something.
You cant compare the worlds fastest racers with mortals like ourselves cause they could ride just about any bike probably (till a certain degree offcourse) and still do good.
O and a Giant isnt a true single pivot and Pascal did better on a Be One :eviltongu
I dont give a rats ass about how SC is raving about VPP being super stable and how it has no pedal bob cause it does have pedal bob.
I just like that it tracks like its on rails and how it sucks everything up like your on a magic carpet. People sometimes tell me they can actually see my rear wheel sticking to the ground like its a fukkin magnet or something.
You cant compare the worlds fastest racers with mortals like ourselves cause they could ride just about any bike probably (till a certain degree offcourse) and still do good.
O and a Giant isnt a true single pivot and Pascal did better on a Be One :eviltongu
Not to mention all theTranscend said:
's who ride DHR's.It's also a single pivot, I got one and I love it :love:
Kev, if we're hopefully gonna ride in september at Namur, let's do a bike trade for a run and compare
just think about that knowledge informing a bike's design.binary visions said:
that almost lets you imagine how well the V-Tach performs.
no offense to dw, I feel the same about his knowledge.
why did they replace everything carbon fiber with plastic????????????!!!!!