Really, its as simple as tipping the bike side to side under you; no deep analysis or 'maths' needed that just obfuscate the obvious.Cause the VPFree and V10 are exactly the same bike other than shock placement. I don't think the shock placement is what you are feeling that's noticeable.
Nah I'm just not sure you quite understand what I was talking about earlier. You mentioned oscillation frequencies but then dismissed them based on the frequency of impacts on a trail. No I don't ride on the scale of a few Hz.....I know that. But that wasn't the type of 'calmness' I've felt in road bikes for years and in one of the dh bikes in particular that's out there. It really is a resonance from impacts, not the low frequency of trail hits. Not every carbon bike I've ridden feels like this......like a GT for instance. But the V10s? Yeah.....there's something going on there that was never present in any of their aluminum frames. It's the exact same feel I've felt on a bunch of different carbon road bikes. It's not flex, and it's not imaginary. So when DP says something similar about a new carbon spec demo 8, I believe him. There are lots of things that you're not supposed to be able to feel but plenty of riders do........in suspension, in tires, in cranks.....
I have a trail down here to test it out on. The official record is 1:41 it has been that since 2000.....
Thank you. I can't respond to the vocabulary lessons in this thread but I know the real world difference, and it's not a placebo or kool-aid/imaginary effect.
Sure, I'd rather have a good aluminum bike than a carbon bike with crappy geometry or suspension. But what about the same bike? For example, the carbon or aluminum version of a nomad? The difference is not superfluous in my opinion.
Whoever said faster?
Fair enough. There is an argument that at this point we are talking about marginal differences, so any slight improvement counts. In any case, it's true that I'm pretty much equally slow on carbon and aluminum bikes.
So you weight nothing? Are you the first weightless man? If no than it's around 1%. Again it's rider + bike, not the bike alone. That's why lower bb actually makes a difference.
Yes, BB height makes a difference, but isnt dependent on or exclusive of other design factors. Is bike weight irrelevant? Screw 1kg, why not 2? Is there no advantage to a lighter or balanced bike? Have you never noticed a heavy fork that's .5kg more than another? Moving 60g of rotational weight to the hub on a wheel is a big deal, but moving 1000g on the frame is inconsequential? Bike + Rider is NOT one mass. Physics are apparently subjective in your world, not mine.
This.
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Where did I say weight is irrelevant? I've said shock placement is irrelevant. It's centralized mass anyway so it hass little problem. As for the fork - I never went 1kg in fork weight differance on the same bike so I won't comment on that. If you want to base you assumptions on the same idea as your vp-free vs v10 feel free to do it.
You either need to go back to school for reading comprehension skills or phisics. I never said bike + rider is one mass in all cases but if you calculate the effective CoG than you have to take rider mass as well. I agree in many cases rider mass should not be taken into equation but if you think it's the same for CoG calculation you are delusional.
That's almost as irrelevant comparison as your vp-free vs v10 one.
You are the one assuming I am basing this on one comparison.
Can you at least try to respond to my post instead of repeating I avoid laws of phisics. Which ones? It's you who claims putting 1kg more on the top of your backpack matters yet the weight of an 80kg rider doesn't matter.
You are overanalyzing. I can feel the difference, if you cannot, woe unto you. I have addressed your points, they are extremely overstated and bloated with opinion; you dismissed my backpack example out of turn when it is perfectly valid example of weight distribution, and as a small percentage of a combined package (is the pack somehow independent in a way the bike is not?).
1. You can feel the differance on 2 completely different bikes. Of course the one with if I remember right close to 0.5'' lower bb will feel like it has lower CoG.
Yes independent of your weight. When do you ride can you please give me examples when your bike behaves independent in your weight? I will give you 2 examples:
So how is me not feeling the right worse than you feeling it? So if you feel it it's phisics and if I don't it's not? Not to mention I don't say I don't feel it, I say I'm not thinking about it because all the different bikes I rode had different geometry, bars, stem length etc., not only shock placement as you claimed with your vp-free and v10 comparison.
Yes, my entire argument is based on the comparison between my VPFree and V10. I have never ridden any other bikes. Ever. (Clue: it was AN example. And short shocked, pretty close Geo except the WB) Bicycles move around under you, left, right, up, down, forward, back - even when you're on the ground - separate masses acting on each other at ALL times; more noticeable when you leave the ground, of course.
Yuck !
The bike does move a ****ton more under you. the better a rider the more you move the bike around while your upper body is calm. cornering, coasting over rocks, flicking around rocks etc etc all examples where weight distribution of the bike plays a role.
