[Freddy Salgado]

Any photos of dh bikes that compress from top at the rocker and lower linkage. I think the Tomac, Lawill, Bradbury bike did this, any feedback on this bike greatly appreciated. Looks like c-dale has something like this as well?
Thru in a photo of one I rigged up. Worked pretty sweet but had to lay her to rest, looks kinda like the opposite of what Treks rig has going on certainly not as pretty.

 

[Freddy Salgado]

this one was hard to track down. by far the coolest bike in its time!

 

[dropmachine]

 

[ire]

The original Chumba DH rig did as well (can't remember the name off hand)

<edit> found the name, Zulu DH

 

[gruczniak]

http://versuscycles.com/weaponx_detail.html

 

[goodgrief]

finally, a reason to post a pic of my bike!

 

[zahgurim]

Nice Tomac 204 above ^.

Mine was the first one setup with an Avy rear, nice to see another!
Still have the frame around, am getting itchy to build her back up for fun...

 

[LMC]

 

[jonKranked]

The original Chumba DH rig did as well (can't remember the name off hand)

<edit> found the name, Zulu DH

A good friend of mine had one when I was living in Rochester. It rode like a dream, but it went through hardware like none other! He was replacing bolts and bearings at least once every 2 months.

 

[Freddy Salgado]

looks like dc rigs are on the comeback. these guys have a nice clean looking bike. pretty sick to see barrel riding that short travel version like a stuck pig at the worlds.

 

[syadasti]

Trek has a floating shock mount on their current bikes.

The guy behind that also did the Suzuki Full Floater. Here is the 1982 RM465 frame:

 

[Freddy Salgado]

Trek has a floating shock mount on their current bikes.

The guy behind that also did the Suzuki Full Floater. Here is the 1982 frame:

Wonder if that guy came up with split link as well? The trek rigs lower shock mount moves the wrong way. Probably some merit to that Trek system, but makes more sense on a bicycle that the shock mounts compress towards each other. Trek is the ultimate place to dumpster dive if you live in midwest as the vrx up top was hand picked!

 

[blackohio]

evil revolt. nuff said

 

[TWeerts]

evil revolt. nuff said

we need a picture:

 

[Honus]

MRC (McMahon Racing) built a bike in the late 90's (the B.U.F.F.) that had the exact same system that Trek now has- minus the split pivot. I remember when Steve McMahon showed me one of the first ones he built. I kind of laughed when I saw the new Trek models.

 

[syadasti]

MRC (McMahon Racing) built a bike in the late 90's (the B.U.F.F.) that had the exact same system that Trek now has- minus the split pivot. I remember when Steve McMahon showed me one of the first ones he built. I kind of laughed when I saw the new Trek models.

No need to laugh, the guy that designed the Trek bikes made a floating shock mount Suzuki motorcycle which was available in the early 80s so he can laugh at Steve McMahon.

 

[Hesh To Steel]

Didn't the Sinister bikes "passion" project have a linkage that compressed from both ends? Hasn't been released or anything, but photos of the prototype were floating around, no pun intended.

 

[Honus]

No need to laugh, the guy that designed the Trek bikes made a floating shock mount Suzuki motorcycle which was available in the early 80s so he can laugh at Steve McMahon.

By any chance did he work on the square four Heron Suzukis that Nigel Leaper designed? Those were pretty interesting GP bikes (composite chassis) that had the Full Floater system- at least on the '84 bike as they later switched to a more traditional rising rate linkage on the '85 and '86 carbon chassis bikes. There are several other motorcycle chassis that used a floating shock (Ducati and the Honda Unit Pro-Link design used on the MotoGP RC211V and CBR600RR- the principle being that it would isolate the chassis from forces acting on the rear shock.

I just thought it was funny since the Suzuki Full Floater compressed the shock from both ends while the MRC and Trek bikes compressed the shock only from the top linkage and when Steve first showed it to me he thought it was pretty revolutionary and I was telling him- "so it's similar to a Suzuki Full Floater."

Everything old is new again....

 

[syadasti]

By any chance did he work on the square four Heron Suzukis that Nigel Leaper designed? Those were pretty interesting GP bikes (composite chassis) that had the Full Floater system- at least on the '84 bike as they later switched to a more traditional rising rate linkage on the '85 and '86 carbon chassis bikes. There are several other motorcycle chassis that used a floating shock (Ducati and the Honda Unit Pro-Link design used on the MotoGP RC211V and CBR600RR- the principle being that it would isolate the chassis from forces acting on the rear shock.

I just thought it was funny since the Suzuki Full Floater compressed the shock from both ends while the MRC and Trek bikes compressed the shock only from the top linkage and when Steve first showed it to me he thought it was pretty revolutionary and I was telling him- "so it's similar to a Suzuki Full Floater."

Everything old is new again....

I guess what I thought I remembered/heard was wrong, he worked for Kawasaki in the 80s:

One of the first building blocks laid by Trek was the hiring in July 2006 of suspension guru Jose Gonzalez, a seven-year veteran of Answer-Manitou. Gonzalez came from a motocross background at Kawasaki, and had worked closely with Trek in the past.

 

[trib]

sinister passion,

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166474

 

[leitzee]

Trek Session 88 only compress at one end, and decompress at the other end, not really a double compression design.

The company really makes full use of double compress design is Fusion Bikes.

http://www.fusionbikes.de/bikes/

 

[Steve M]

Whether a bike compresses the shock from one end, the other end, or both ends is factually irrelevant. What counts is wheel rate. Everything else is ultimately irrelevant.

 

[syadasti]

Whether a bike compresses the shock from one end, the other end, or both ends is factually irrelevant. What counts is wheel rate. Everything else is ultimately irrelevant.

That's what I assumed. Also it seems you could achieve comparable wheel rates with non-floating shock mount which is why so few companies have adopted them. As far as the Trek the lower mount moves down at a different rate than the top which is probably considered in its design but different geometry linkage setup with fixed lower mount could achieve a similar result so its probably more for marketing than anything else.

 

[MarkDH]

Fusion Terminator

 

[Steve M]

That's what I assumed. Also it seems you could achieve comparable wheel rates with non-floating shock mount which is why so few companies have adopted them. As far as the Trek the lower mount moves down at a different rate than the top which is probably considered in its design but different geometry linkage setup with fixed lower mount could achieve a similar result so its probably more for marketing than anything else.

Exactly. In some cases you could use such a system to great advantage, particularly if the degree of rotation of the links is quite large, ie short links, good example would be the IF Tungsten Electrode which uses the lower shock mount to reduce the level of progression later on in the travel. In Trek's case, the simple fact that they use the same general layout across their entire range of ABP bikes would indicate that they haven't gone for the floating shock layout for a specific rate-tuning reason that was unachievable with a normal fixed mount. There is a lot of bull**** in the bike industry, and even stuff that Specialized, Trek etc - companies who claim to do all this R&D and have the most highly tuned suspension etc etc - tend to claim are often just "innovations" for the sake of change rather than because there is a legitimate performance advantage associated with it.

 

[leitzee]

Another one which is quite different from the rest, Antidote Lifeline.

 

[TWeerts]

The trek isnt exactly double compression. its more fraction compression.

 

[Spahman]

I only see one shock on some of these bikes... what do you guys mean double compression?

 

[Jason4]

They are referring to the idea that the shock is compressed simultaneously from both ends or in the case of the Trek that neither end is fixed to the frame.

I'm interested in knowing how much influence the inertia of the shock has on the wheel movement.

 

[syadasti]

The floating shock mount - either compression from both ends or variable compression on current Trek products merely offers a novel way/packaging to tune a design for its intended application if utilized properly. Its different but not really important other than for marketing a new mousetrap (common industry trend). You can use a fixed mount and/or more tunable premium shock and get comparable results.

 

[Freddy Salgado]

Exactly. In some cases you could use such a system to great advantage, particularly if the degree of rotation of the links is quite large, ie short links, good example would be the IF Tungsten Electrode which uses the lower shock mount to reduce the level of progression later on in the travel. In Trek's case, the simple fact that they use the same general layout across their entire range of ABP bikes would indicate that they haven't gone for the floating shock layout for a specific rate-tuning reason that was unachievable with a normal fixed mount. There is a lot of bull**** in the bike industry, and even stuff that Specialized, Trek etc - companies who claim to do all this R&D and have the most highly tuned suspension etc etc - tend to claim are often just "innovations" for the sake of change rather than because there is a legitimate performance advantage associated with it.

Couldnt of said it better mysefff Cant belive some of the crap that these corprate idiots put out for the sake of $. There is definetly something special with DC floating shock rigs thats worth exploring. The one I monster garaged with concentric bb pivot was exceptionally smooth thru rock gardens, but the rear wheel path was not ideal. The fusion with a split pivot rear dropout would be cool, but that mondraker with dual linkage floater seem to be on to something, very clean bike.

 

[spornographer]

here's POV video of the trek session 88 suspension in action with the floating stuff...fyi.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/2009-Trek-Session-88-FR-Suspension-POV,134/2009-Trek-Session-88-FR-Suspension-POV,442/sspomer,2

 

[Freddy Salgado]

here's POV video of the trek session 88 suspension in action with the floating stuff...fyi.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/2009-Trek-Session-88-FR-Suspension-POV,134/2009-Trek-Session-88-FR-Suspension-POV,442/sspomer,2

thanx for the vid spornographer, the trek does not double compress. if you have a close look at the video the bottom shock mount floats in same direction as top shock mount. close, but what i mean by double compression is that the shock mounts compress both ends of shock towards each other, comprende amigo?
Cool to see so many dc floater dh bikes from diffrent era's, great minds think alike but some have better follow through than others. I'm sure there are a few more lurking about.

 

[time-bomb]

Propain bikes make a few nice frames w/floating shocks. Definitely compressed at both ends.

http://www.propain-bikes.com/

 

[Steve M]

thanx for the vid spornographer, the trek does not double compress. if you have a close look at the video the bottom shock mount floats in same direction as top shock mount. close, but what i mean by double compression is that the shock mounts compress both ends of shock towards each other, comprende amigo?
Cool to see so many dc floater dh bikes from diffrent era's, great minds think alike but some have better follow through than others. I'm sure there are a few more lurking about.

It really doesn't matter whether the bike compresses the shock from one end, or both, or one end moves away from the other. All that matters in terms of leverage rate is the effective spring and damping rates you're getting when measured at the rear wheel. All the other stuff is just means to an end - there is nothing inherently better or worse about a bike that compresses the shock from both ends, all it does is give you some more tuning options, but there is nothing to say that it gives you any BETTER tuning options.

The devil is in the details - always. The general style of linkage layout has surprisingly little to do with how any bike rides. You can make two bikes look very similar and perform very differently, or look very different and perform almost identically.

 

[syadasti]

Floating shock mount mini-link bikes, not double compression (Endurance DH and super D models):

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/member/One-Ghosts-album,79/Genken-Endurance-DH-frame,1756/One-Ghost,122

 

[davec113]

The Trek floating shock enables the evo rocker link to have a lower ratio (distance from shock bolt to center pivot vs distance from seatstay bolt to center pivot). This lower ratio allows the evo link to be relatively small compared to normal rockers you'd find on Turners and Konas, for example. Further, the evo link is forged and welded together, making for a much stiffer rear triangle vs individual rocker plates like you'd find on Turners and Konas. The bike also looks a lot better.

Marketing BS or no, Trek's new single pivot suspension works really, really well. I prefer it to all the floating pivot bikes I've rode so far. The bikes are light, stiff, fast, and fun to ride.

 

[Jm_]

Further, the evo link is forged and welded together, making for a much stiffer rear triangle vs individual rocker plates like you'd find on Turners and Konas. The bike also looks a lot better.

Really? The link on my turner is welded. Pretty sure that Trek doesn't use needle bearings on all the pivots or journal bearings on all the pivots either.

I just recommended my buddy get a new ABP Trek (the Remedy), but there's a lot more to making a stiff/rigid rear end than just a one-peice linkage (like on my Turner).

 

[davec113]

Really? The link on my turner is welded. Pretty sure that Trek doesn't use needle bearings on all the pivots or journal bearings on all the pivots either.

I just recommended my buddy get a new ABP Trek (the Remedy), but there's a lot more to making a stiff/rigid rear end than just a one-peice linkage (like on my Turner).

Yeah, the asymmetrical chainstays they copied from Turner help too.

Anyhow, Turner RFXs dream they are Remedys at night...