Decent DH frame that doesn't weigh a TON?!?!?

Dogboy · Jan 4, 2011

It's not the frame. A 2008 Sunday WC should weigh in around 41-42lbs with a reasonable build and can go sub-40 with some light parts. Not saying that a new frame won't be cool, just that the Sunday isn't the culprit if your bike is really 46lbs.

Pepper Brooks · Jan 4, 2011

I'm taking a shot in the dark here, but I'd be willing to bet the weight is from your wheels and tires.

Are you running intense 4 plys on Sun Doublewides by chance? :rofl:

The Sunday without a lot of work can easily build up under 38 lbs. It's still a light frame by "Todays" standards.

RUFUS · Jan 4, 2011

I had an '08 Sunday WC with fairly light parts that came out to 38.7lbs. It is not the frame.

fro biker · Jan 4, 2011

46lbs...seriously? holy ****. before you spend more money on a bike (b/c for what it's worth, the Sunday is pretty damn on par with anything else around), look to change components.

my suggestions:

New Cranks/BB - a lot of weight to shave there depending on what you run
New Pedals - there are some seriously light/awesome buys out right now
New Wheels - always a good area to lighten up
New Headset - get the cane creek angle set for weight and to get you "current geo" if you are after that sort of thing
New Stoppers - cheap and light now come in several packages out there.

I know that you can get this all for a fair share less than a new bike.
Just an idea.
Good luck.

Pepper Brooks · Jan 4, 2011

freshwire said:
Thanks for the reply...

The heaviest stuff on it is:

'07 Fox 40
Gravity Crankset 165mm
RS Vivid with 450lb spring
Azonic Outlaw Wheelset 2010
Hayes Stroker Ace Brakes with 203mm rotors

Can I really shave 5lbs off the bike by changing out any of this stuff??

Those are heavy wheels, what tires and tubes do you have with them? If your running a thick cased DH tire with a DH tube, you can shave a ton of weight right there.

The gravity crankset (assuming it's the 4 bearing gap) is a heavy crankset. a gravity lite/RF atlas, or similar will drop some weight for sure.

yd35 · Jan 4, 2011

You could save about a pound if you swap out your Fox 40 for a 2010 or 2011 Boxxer WC. It's definitely an expensive upgrade if you buy new, but I've seen some decent deals on used '10 WC's.

demo 9 · Jan 4, 2011

Wheels/tires, if you go tubeless (i like it) you will save the weight of whatever tubes you run, also no need for 2.7 DH super tires either. 2.5/2.3 is fine.

WBC · Jan 4, 2011

It's gotta be your tires. Those cranks aren't THAT much heavier than Saints.

Also, look at your saddle, seatpost, bars, stem. Some seats weigh a ton, same with the posts, and it's all weight that's high up and needs to move back and forth every time your bike changes directions.

With the parts you listed, you should still be able to get that Sunday to around 40-42.

I ran a 2006 Taiwan Sunday (pound heavier than yours) with RF Diabolous cranks (same weight as the Gravitys), a 2006 888 (pound heavier than the 40), old-style saint brakes, Maxxis 2.5 Minion DHF's w/ XC tubes, Mavic rims on DT hubs, Funn cockpit, thomson post, DHX 5.0 w/ steel spring, Fit slim-style saddle and other similar parts, and my bike weighed 42lbs and was bulletproof.

Same parts with a 40 and the newer frame and it would've been 40.

WBC · Jan 4, 2011

Seriously, just ditch the DH tubes for a start and ride it. You'll save a ton of weight and it'll make the suspension work better by not having so much unsprung.

2.5 minions or highrollers would also help. The Ardents are huge and while they may not weigh that much more, large volume tires make your bike feel like a pig.

Your seat should also go. If you want to go cheap, find a ti-railed road bike seat on closeout with minimal cutouts. Ebay is good for that, too.

The fact is, even if you were to go to a carbon V10, which is one of the very lightest frames out there, you'd only save 2-2.5lbs, and very little of that weight would even matter since only the swingarm is unsprung weight.

If you just changed the tubes and seat out, you would feel a huge difference and probably only spend like $30.

WBC · Jan 4, 2011

freshwire said:
Thanks...go ghetto tubless? or just xc tubes?? I've got a set of Schwalbe Muddy Mary's dual Carcass 2.35's that are like new...would they be better???

Just regular tubes. 1.75-2.25 or something close to that. With proper pressure, reasonably clean lines, and good quality tires (I run minion 2.5's or wetscream 2.5's), I can get by on only a few flats all season, and that's riding a ton of very rocky trails.

Pepper Brooks · Jan 4, 2011

WBC said:
Just regular tubes. 1.75-2.25 or something close to that. With proper pressure, reasonably clean lines, and good quality tires (I run minion 2.5's or wetscream 2.5's), I can get by on only a few flats all season, and that's riding a ton of very rocky trails.

exactly, there is no reason to run DH tubes unless you live in AZ and shuttle pure rock everyday.

WBC · Jan 4, 2011

freshwire said:
Thanks for all your help bro...tbh...I'm weighing this thing with me holding it on a digital bathroom scale which prolly isn't that accurate...and btw...i just weighed it and it is 44 lbs actually (only!) so shaving 2 or 3 more may not be that hard...but you're right...it mainly just feels really big and sluggish on the flatter sections...and that's prolly the tubes and the tires...I do use massive DH tubes...but NEVER get a flat...of course...I have trouble getting out of my own way...so the trade off is prolly worth it with reg. tubes...really appreciate all your help...

Would you mind explainging the term "unsprung" a bit???

Cheers!

No worries. TV's broken and I'm too braindead from another 12hr workday to be productive.

I'd think that a couple flats here and there is worth the improvement in handling and feel that lighter wheels (via lighter tubes) give.

I have no idea about the Schwalbes, but more and more people are running them so they're probably good enough.

Unsprung weight is weight that is not "sprung" or held up by the suspension. This includes your swingarm, wheels, derailleur, cassette, etc. If it's not held up by the suspension, then that component needs to move up and down every time the suspension compresses or rebounds. The more weight in that component, the more intertia, and therefor the more resistance to change in direction. This equates into sluggish and harsh suspension action as the component will tend to get hung up on compressions and not rebound fast enough on the other end. I hope that's explaining it easy enough.??

For example, I run heavy cranks, a heavier frame, heavy pedals. But I run light wheels, derailleur, cassette, tubes.

4130biker · Jan 4, 2011

Unsprung is anything that isn't supported by suspension. It affects how quickly your suspension can change directions. Good advice from these guys. The order Ive learned for reducing weight on a bike from most, to least effective: 1 rotating weight 2 unsprung weight 3 sprung weight.
I think getting rid of the heavy tubes will be a great bang for your buck. 2.5 minions while your at it would be sweet too!

climbingbubba · Jan 5, 2011

yeah switching to the muddy mary's and XC tubes you will probably drop a couple pounds. The 2.35 MM's are pretty close to the same size as minion 2.5's. great tire for max traction and they corner really well.

You could spend 400 or so and really drop some weight. look into some lighter dh cranks like Race face atlas FR or truvativ descents. Get a wtb devo carbon ti saddle off ebay, you may be able to save a significant amount off your cassette to depending on which one you have now. A ti coil could drop 1/2-3/4 a pound as well

If you have more money to spend then building a custom wheelset would drop even more. Maybe mavic 721's laced to hope hubs with dt competition spokes. probably drop another pound or so. Also the new boxxer wc would drop a pound or so.

do all of these and you may be able to get sub 40lbs even.

Maybe another good investment for the frame would be an angleset. It may make your sunday feel more like the modern DH bikes.

demo 9 · Jan 5, 2011

Just a tad more to add to unsprung weight, if you put a cinder-block on your axles, your suspension would have to "lift" the cinder-block before it could compress (its moving UP from the rock you just hit) Now if you put both cinder-blocks in a backpack and rode the bike, it probably wouldnt feel any different, potentially better since the ratio is improved for sprung/unsprung. I *THINK* if you had ZERO unsprung weight (impossible) and your suspension had ZERO friction, you wouldnt feel any bumps at all-your suspension would just blow through the travel with no bar feedback. As dumb as it sounds, a cassette/der/disc weight gain is huge, may only be a few hundred grams, but its improving your bikes reaction time, so your suspension goes in 4 inches as it hits the rock, and not 4 inches when its on top/already over the rock. unsprung is paramount, rotational as well (wheels/tires/rims) Rotational dictates how quickly you can accelerate/decelerate. Also plays into changing direction a tad.

jules · Jan 5, 2011

I'm currently building on a Sunday frame and on paper, its 37lbs. and that's not with the most lightest parts... but ofcorse, let's see what's it at on a real scale.

demo 9 · Jan 5, 2011

jules said:
I'm currently building on a Sunday frame and on paper, its 37lbs. and that's not with the most lightest parts... but ofcorse, let's see what's it at on a real scale.

heavier, its always better on paper :rant:

miuan · Jan 5, 2011

Yeah keep that frame. Maybe you could save about 150-200 grams running it raw. Here are a couple more ways to get it lighter without breaking the bank.

Your wheels are bulletproof. You can save up to 300 grams per wheel just running stan's tubeless strips and some sort of liquid latex inside. They're pretty reliable with Maxxis 2-ply tires. You may also consider purchasing a lighter rim like ZTR Flow for your front wheel if your current rim shows no significant damage, and keep the old rim as backup for the rear wheel. As you rebuild your wheel, you can use alloy nipples. They're light, strong, come in plenty of colorways and can be re-used.

Inspect your cranks / bashring for wear from rocks. It they show little damage, you can get away with lighter chain device and Shimano trekking cranks (Deore/SLX/XT), saving 300-400g on cranks alone (google Nathan Riddle for details). Other legitimate options for 83mm are becoming similarly light these days, so the choice is yours.

Remove 3-4 big cogs from your cassette, this saves you 50% cassette weight. I never need mine unless I'm climbing a hill.

Your stoppers are heavy, but they're strong. Try to run the smallest rotors you can get away with comfortably. Good bleed goes a long way.

Finally, if you just get upset trying to achieve the impossible, sell the bike and check out the new top-end Mondraker Summum Pro Team. It's almost as light as you can go.

jules · Jan 5, 2011

the lightest is 35, but that's also with a crazy $$$.

I'm sure it will be heavier, but i'm happy when it stays under 39.

Hougham · Jan 5, 2011

Sunn Radical

Orange 244

norbar · Jan 5, 2011

37-38lbs with heavy components is easily doable on your bike. No dh tubes is the first and the best idea. Ghetto tubeless isn't bad either. You can also spend some money and go 823s + hopes + real ust but that's a bit of a pita. I'm light so I managed to build my wheels on revos and they are 2050g. Front rim stans ztr flow is also a great idea.
What axle you have on the rear? Steel or alu? If steel get alu. (around 100g)
Get a lighter chainguide, a used lg1 (regular) will drop you a lot(close to 200g I think) anyway and you can get them for very cheap.
For cheap and light seat that can take abuse - Tioga D Spyder (D version is the sturdy one) - 174g on cro-mo rails for ~40$
Either take some cogs of the casette or get a road one (unless you ride up)
You can loose ~100g on chain if you use some strange 300g shimano crapper when you go kmc x9l sl (30-40$ on ebay).

Udi · Jan 5, 2011

The 07+ Sunday is not a heavy frame, I think mine is 9.9lbs with BOS shock and Ti spring.

I have two of the frames built up, one with saint cranks and saint brakes comes in at 16.5kg or 36.4lbs.

The weight will definitely be in your build, which means that getting a new frame won't change anything unless you work on that. Personally I'd skip tubeless, and simply swap your DH tubes for maxxis freeride tubes (280g).

Looks like you already have a lot of suggestions to mull over but from quickly looking at your bike, things that would save a lot of weight:

- Chainguide, LG1+
- Saddle, maybe an ibeam/ifly combo
- New saint cranks will save a lot of weight and are cheap from CRC
- Cluster is an area many overlook, dura-ace is very light
- Bars and stem can carry a lot of weight, not sure what yours are
- Ti spring, DSP are good and cheap(ish)

jules · Jan 5, 2011

- kona pedals are good and i like them, but also 480g, so - 100g would come from there
- 40 to boxxer wc: - around 500 g

Sandwich · Jan 5, 2011

Udi said:
- Chainguide, LG1+
- Saddle, maybe an ibeam/ifly combo
- New saint cranks will save a lot of weight and are cheap from CRC
- Cluster is an area many overlook, dura-ace is very light
- Bars and stem can carry a lot of weight, not sure what yours are
- Ti spring, DSP are good and cheap(ish)

this. Chainguide/bashguard could save some weight, DH tubes gotta go, just grab some standard/non-XC race tubes, you'll probably be fine. I'd bet that with that setup you'd be two pounds lighter. My sunday bathroom-scaled came in at 42 lbs with a Boxxer WC and a similar parts build. I have heavy ass pedals and bars and stem and wheels and tires...so realistically it comes in similarly.

I would also recommend considering stripping and/or repainting your bike...I just stripped my sunday and found a bikeload of bondo on it...I'll probably wind up several grams lighter simply by removing the frame filler from the headtube area...it was a few mm thick. Throw in the solid powdercoat they used, and I've probably got a half a pound off the frame alone...who knows.

Moral of the story is that the Sunday still lives on, and other "modern" frames are even heavier...nobody has really gotten it "right-er"...especially if it's a late-gen Sunday. You may also get a little more liveliness from a shock tune...I think that's going to be my big gift to myself, a tune and an angleset...

sundaydoug · Jan 5, 2011

Sandwich said:
I just stripped my sunday and found a bikeload of bondo on it...

Got any pics of your raw Sunday? Just want to see what mine will look like.

Also, anyone have any real world reviews of the angleset?

IH8Rice · Jan 5, 2011

Pepper Brooks said:
exactly, there is no reason to run DH tubes unless you live in AZ and shuttle pure rock everyday.

theres no way id run anything but DH tubes for where i ride here in the east.

ianjenn · Jan 5, 2011

IH8Rice said:
theres no way id run anything but DH tubes for where i ride here in the east.

Save about 3/4 a pound and hike down the trails no thanks. I will stick with DH tubes as well. The bikes we have tested have had DH tubes and tires and all weighed about 40LBS even!

Sandwich · Jan 5, 2011

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238127&highlight=raw

It actually doesn't look bad at all, but there is some discoloration at the CNC section and I had some nasty nasty bondo around the headtube gusset. One side is gone (yay) but the other is still there...it's at least 1mm thick, but the one on the downtube was easier to get off.

norbar · Jan 5, 2011

Guys - stans + tubes or tubeless. Less weight and still works. Tested in some scary places with no problems. Well that or use cheap soft rims that will dent instead of pinching your tire.

sundaydoug · Jan 5, 2011

Sandwich said:
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238127&highlight=raw

Looks good. I'm just assuming you used a chemical stripper. Which one? I'm thinking of just having mine media blasted.

IH8Rice · Jan 5, 2011

ianjenn said:
Save about 3/4 a pound and hike down the trails no thanks. I will stick with DH tubes as well. The bikes we have tested have had DH tubes and tires and all weighed about 40LBS even!

ive tried light tubes before and had to hike down the trail too. it sucks. really bad. its always a debate whether to hike up or hike down.

id really only save a 1/2lb if i went with freeride tubes over my IRC DH tubes (390grams.)

Sandwich · Jan 5, 2011

sundaydoug said:
Looks good. I'm just assuming you used a chemical stripper. Which one? I'm thinking of just having mine media blasted.

http://www.truevalue.com/product/18-oz-Paint-Stripper/29733.uts?keyword=paint stripper

I used this. It sprays on and then you wipe/scrub it off if you're impatient like me. I bought one can and it wasn't enough, so maybe the tub stuff is a better value. The spray stuff was so easy to use...just make sure to buy RUBBER gloves and not nitrile/vinyl, as it'll eat right through.

My plan was to have it painted, but I was bored and figured what the heck...now I think I'll end up leaving it raw since it's not a bad looking frame and painting it will sink money into it that would be better used for a shock tune and angleset...I don't love the bike enough to pretty it up, only to get it dirty again.

Tomasis · Jan 5, 2011

norbar said:
For cheap and light seat that can take abuse - Tioga D Spyder (D version is the sturdy one) - 174g on cro-mo rails for ~40$
.

my ride is on diet now .. made some research for seat on CRC site

it seems that DMR Squid 160gram plus any pivotal seatpost (alienation 333mm 30.0mm 232g)

all for dirty 40€

this gonna replace my seat which weighs more that double :weee:

bmx stuffs can be used on DH, lol

If i ever find a long carbon pivotal seatpost, i would go mad!

Kanye West · Jan 5, 2011

I've been running the Specialized 2.3 tubes with Maxxis 3C's lately and have had zero problems flatting or tagging the rims except when I really mess up bad. I also run right around 30psi (I weigh 170#).

If I had to choose between running lower pressures with thicker tubes or higher pressures with thinner tubes, I'd go with the second one. Higher pressure tires roll faster, don't squirm in corners, and let you slam through small chop twice as fast. They also knife through loose stuff way better.

bobsten · Jan 5, 2011

http://www.albes.com/premiumcarbonfiberpivotalseatpost.aspx

who knew bmxers were weight weenies....

you'd have to use a shim though, I'm guessing.

http://thecomeupbmx.net/new-products/carbon-fiber-pivotal-stuff/

there's another

I just noticed the word "long" though... so my suggestions are moot. sorry.

Tomasis said:
my ride is on diet now .. made some research for seat on CRC site

it seems that DMR Squid 160gram plus any pivotal seatpost (alienation 333mm 30.0mm 232g)

all for dirty 40€ this gonna replace my seat which weighs more that double

bmx stuffs can be used on DH, lol

If i ever find a long carbon pivotal seatpost, i would go mad!

Decent DH frame that doesn't weigh a TON?!?!?

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