http://www.sicklines.com/2007/01/04/review-brembo-dh-brakeset/
dont car if its a repost wanted to share...your (gulp) thoughts
dont car if its a repost wanted to share...your (gulp) thoughts
brembos....cool
- Thread starter psychobiker
- Start date
Those are so expensive... 400pounds. I'd hate to see what happens if you didn't have race support with Brembo's if that case ever arose.
i could imagine how much the pads are, if there anything like those on porsche's they would were out your wallett ..quick
i can never find anything when searching
Brembo sounds nice, but somehow I wonder how different they might be......
Yeah it's nice having the bling, but the fact that their car systems cost about the same just doesn't seem right.
I want them-
no you dont there too heavy for you.
That descent world review is a bit of a joke!
It pretty much gives negative point after negative point, writing them off as "they're brembo so it's okay". Hose expansion, heavy weight, horrible hardware... oh don't worry, they're brembo!
Bad reviews are pretty commonplace in mtb, but damn that takes the cake for anything i've read recently.
It pretty much gives negative point after negative point, writing them off as "they're brembo so it's okay". Hose expansion, heavy weight, horrible hardware... oh don't worry, they're brembo!
Bad reviews are pretty commonplace in mtb, but damn that takes the cake for anything i've read recently.
Hmm, I guess I better introduce myself as the writer of that D-W review. Thanks for that comment, sets the day off beautifully!
A review is not necessarily bad because you disagree with what it says. At what point did I say that the hardware was horrible? I would rather have that type of fixing as, in ****ty uk conditions, I would rather have an easy to clean out external hex head rather than an internal allen key hex. Not to mention the fact that the ext hex is better at transmitting loads without rounding out than our favourite internal hex.
The hose expansion is fine. It is better than most plastic hoses (so giving a little to help with modulation) and not much worse than the Goodridge kits. The difference is that the power provided by the lever gives far more pressure at the caliper than your average Avid etc..therefore the hoses do have more expansion when using hard. However, in no way does that mean that they are soggy as there is a very positive bite point followed by enough movement to still have great control over what is a very powerful brake.
Rebadged grimeca's. Very interesting point that as you laugh at the fact that it has a cast lever. As a mountain biker you no doubt want the most expensive machined aluminium part for that bling. However, casting is a fine way to produce a component. I know several people high up in the engineering side of the motorsport industry over here in the UK who were very impressed in the quality of the castings. What are Avid Code's levers and Saint's etc if they aren't cast? Nothing wrong with a high quality casting as I say...
Mountain bike brakes such as the saints, avids, hayes etc feel like cheap plastic toys when you compare them to actually riding. You can laugh all you like at that comment but until you actually ride them you have no grounds to say anything against that...
Also, with regards to their car and motorbike systems, you are looking at the price in the uk for the mtb kit and then converting that into your own currency where no doubt the car stuff is cheaper. Over here, a mass produced caliper kit for a common car is £1500...That is a kit that many many brakes will be produced of. Compare that to these which are low volume and you have the answer. Their facilities and time will be worth $X per hour. If they produce these instead of car or moto brakes then the cost will need to balance out with the same bottom line figure. I would like as much as anybody for these brakes to be cheaper but at the moment it aint going to happen. If you can afford them then there is no doubt in my mind (or anyone else who has ridden them on the test bike) that they are superb bits of kit. There is no way of photo's doing these justice, especially if you have the ill informed who have never even seen them making sweeping judgements about them on an internet forum.
Any questions, fire away, I am more than happy to answer them!
Another point, the Avid Code (just as an example) is 597g quoted which we all know is liable to a fair amount of innacuracy as with all mtb products quoted weight. The Brembo weighs 690g...actual weight that. When my Codes turn up to test in the next week or so I will give an actual weight of that...
Who is Brembo aiming these brakes at?
Why IS mount? Are they making different adapters for post mount forks?
Is Brembo developing these brakes further or is this it?
I've heard of some pro's actually doing things to make their brakes less powerful.
Is your weight for a front or rear? Is that including all the rotor bolts, caliper, hose, and the rotor?
When spacing out the caliper off the small mount it attaches to, is that meant to be a means for adjustment or are you using washers to space the caliper?
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How is the fit with shifters in/outboard? Shimano shifters?
Why IS mount? Are they making different adapters for post mount forks?
Is Brembo developing these brakes further or is this it?
I've heard of some pro's actually doing things to make their brakes less powerful.
Is your weight for a front or rear? Is that including all the rotor bolts, caliper, hose, and the rotor?
When spacing out the caliper off the small mount it attaches to, is that meant to be a means for adjustment or are you using washers to space the caliper?
How is the fit with shifters in/outboard? Shimano shifters?
I found OSAMA I see his feet behind the rotor.Who is Brembo aiming these brakes at?
Why IS mount? Are they making different adapters for post mount forks?
Is Brembo developing these brakes further or is this it?
Is your weight for a front or rear? Is that including all the rotor bolts, caliper, hose, and the rotor?
When spacing out the caliper off the small mount it attaches to, is that meant to be a means for adjustment or are you using washers to space the caliper?
How is the fit with shifters in/outboard? Shimano shifters?
Do I get a prize?
My hopes look cooler.
Hehe,I found OSAMA I see his feet behind the rotor.
Do I get a prize?
maybe his cousinWho is Brembo aiming these brakes at?
Well, this is my opinion on the matter, and that is that they are aimed at high end racers who will be getting a deal or to those who can afford them. Personally I think that they are superb brakes. However, they are not going to be for everybody. They are expensive bits of kit that do a job incredibly well and also do a good job of making everything else feel significantly inferior in comparison, but if you do not want to be convinced of this then very little can be done to change that. I believe that there was going to be a cheaper, entry level brake, but it was decided not to persue it...probably because their time is most productive else where. But, hopefully, if there is enough badgering from the various parties dealing with Brembo then they may appear...however, don't hold your breath!
Why IS mount? Are they making different adapters for post mount forks?
Those IS mounts are adaptors which bolt onto a radially mounted caliper. There are various adaptor kits available.
Is Brembo developing these brakes further or is this it?
There is going to be an updated one along at some point with a mag casting, carbon blade etc.
I've heard of some pro's actually doing things to make their brakes less powerful.
That is generally to reduce the grabbiness of some brakes. Everyone will have a preferred set-up for brakes, powerful, grabby, not so grabby etc. Ie Minnar will drag his brakes a lot whereas if you look at some of the other top riders, their style is a lot more towards the 'grab a fistful' method.
Is your weight for a front or rear? Is that including all the rotor bolts, caliper, hose, and the rotor?
That is front, 6 rotor bolts (Steel) and the rotor itself, ie full assembly...as is the quoted (claimed) avid code weight.
When spacing out the caliper off the small mount it attaches to, is that meant to be a means for adjustment or are you using washers to space the caliper?
Yes, the adustment is elongated as with Hayes etc to provide horizontal adjustment.
How is the fit with shifters in/outboard? Shimano shifters? - Absolutely fine. I like my levers a long way in which is why I had it set up like that, they fit with old X9, X0, XTR etc absolutely fine...
Well, this is my opinion on the matter, and that is that they are aimed at high end racers who will be getting a deal or to those who can afford them. Personally I think that they are superb brakes. However, they are not going to be for everybody. They are expensive bits of kit that do a job incredibly well and also do a good job of making everything else feel significantly inferior in comparison, but if you do not want to be convinced of this then very little can be done to change that. I believe that there was going to be a cheaper, entry level brake, but it was decided not to persue it...probably because their time is most productive else where. But, hopefully, if there is enough badgering from the various parties dealing with Brembo then they may appear...however, don't hold your breath!
Why IS mount? Are they making different adapters for post mount forks?
Those IS mounts are adaptors which bolt onto a radially mounted caliper. There are various adaptor kits available.
Is Brembo developing these brakes further or is this it?
There is going to be an updated one along at some point with a mag casting, carbon blade etc.
I've heard of some pro's actually doing things to make their brakes less powerful.
That is generally to reduce the grabbiness of some brakes. Everyone will have a preferred set-up for brakes, powerful, grabby, not so grabby etc. Ie Minnar will drag his brakes a lot whereas if you look at some of the other top riders, their style is a lot more towards the 'grab a fistful' method.
Is your weight for a front or rear? Is that including all the rotor bolts, caliper, hose, and the rotor?
That is front, 6 rotor bolts (Steel) and the rotor itself, ie full assembly...as is the quoted (claimed) avid code weight.
When spacing out the caliper off the small mount it attaches to, is that meant to be a means for adjustment or are you using washers to space the caliper?
Yes, the adustment is elongated as with Hayes etc to provide horizontal adjustment.
How is the fit with shifters in/outboard? Shimano shifters? - Absolutely fine. I like my levers a long way in which is why I had it set up like that, they fit with old X9, X0, XTR etc absolutely fine...
So they're overweight and have poor modulation? Awesome. You do realize how much OEM stuff that brembo makes that is not anything special?
And in fact, brakes themselves aren't that complicated, two pistons of different size, mechanical advantage, etc. Pad compounds are far more responsible for how brakes feel and work IMO. How complicated is it to make a brake? It's just a scaled down version of a motorbike brake, and that is exactly what the "brembo" is as well.
Those bolts requiring a socket are the dumbest thing ever. They claim it's for strength, but again, use post mount if you're concerned about strength, and how many caliper bolts break off during braking anyway?
Of course they claim that they are plenty stiff and do not need a monoblock caliper, but a monoblock is a more efficiant structure (doesn't require big heavy bolts going through it). Probably why a mono M4 system weighs a POUND less.
What happens when you bend that non-flexible metal hydraulic fitting that is comming out of the lever?
And in fact, brakes themselves aren't that complicated, two pistons of different size, mechanical advantage, etc. Pad compounds are far more responsible for how brakes feel and work IMO. How complicated is it to make a brake? It's just a scaled down version of a motorbike brake, and that is exactly what the "brembo" is as well.
Those bolts requiring a socket are the dumbest thing ever. They claim it's for strength, but again, use post mount if you're concerned about strength, and how many caliper bolts break off during braking anyway?
Of course they claim that they are plenty stiff and do not need a monoblock caliper, but a monoblock is a more efficiant structure (doesn't require big heavy bolts going through it). Probably why a mono M4 system weighs a POUND less.
What happens when you bend that non-flexible metal hydraulic fitting that is comming out of the lever?
Have to say I am not convinced Ali, I really think you need to give me a set to convince me.
Ha, nice try doug!
I honestly couldn't answer regarding the Marzocchi link...i'll try and find out though.
I'll pass the photo comments to the aging and balding father then!
I honestly couldn't answer regarding the Marzocchi link...i'll try and find out though.
I just got my new Hope Moto's ordered today. I should have them in by Wednesday of next week.
I can't wait to see how they do. They look sick as hell.
I only HOPE they work as well as my mono 4's and 6Ti's I have had in the past.
I can't wait to see how they do. They look sick as hell.
I only HOPE they work as well as my mono 4's and 6Ti's I have had in the past.
There should be a test on the Hope Moto with the vented rotors in the next 2 or 3 weeks too. I have to admit to having never been too enamoured with hope as they seem to be an entirely hit and miss affair. Having run the the original C2's, DH4's when introduced at £250 an end and then the Enduro 4's, they always work well when working but 'go off' too often for my liking.
Avid codes should be going up too very shortly (ie when they land over here) and I am interested to compare how the three brakes work and feel.
Avid codes should be going up too very shortly (ie when they land over here) and I am interested to compare how the three brakes work and feel.
High tensile (and even stainless) allen heads of the sizes used in brake fittings (ie 5mm) are not easily rounded out. In fact I've never ever done it. And I don't usually ride with a multi-socket-tool in my pocket/camelback/whatever. I've also never seen a broken brake mount bolt.
Saints generate over 20% more fluid pressure than the Brembos do and they're one of the firmest-feeling brakes out there (2nd only to Hayes and possibly some of the Magura things which I've rarely even seen let alone ridden). That is not an excuse for a soft lever feel.
The lever feel is superb. Personally I find it far better than i do with shimano which always feel very sticky and plasticky. There is a very positive contact on the brembo initially followed by a lot of modulation. Once you have ridden a set extensively then come back and give a detailed analysis based on that rather than a lot of internet e-rumour spouted by people who have never seen the product in question, letalone (god forbid) ridden it. Having used top end systems at a reasonable level for many years I am genuine in my thoughts that this is the best feeling system I have used. That you cannot argue with. Some like Hayes, some hate; some love avid, some hate...it all comes down to the rider. As a reviewer I can only give the impressions of myself and those surrounding me - not the whole world. I liked them a lot, the guys I ride with liked them a lot (and thats a varied bunch of people). Most of the guys on here are commenting when they haven't even seen them in the flesh!
There are plenty of people who decided as soon as they saw the brake and heard the price that they would hate it. Nothing that I say or do will be able to sway them. However, of the people over here who had a ride on the brembos, the only complaint I heard was that they were too expensive. Most even went as far as commenting on how good the brakes felt in use - both with regards to power and and also controllability.
Thanks for talking down to me about stuff you assume I do or don't know, as well as stuff I never even mentioned. Relative fluid pressures are easily CALCULATED, and what I said stands. It is not speculation, it is easily verifiable FACT.
Lots of "modulation"? I get so friggin sick of hearing that word. A lot of people just mean "soft" (hence why Hayes got a reputation as having "no modulation" due to their firm feel), and as I said in another thread, the true meaning of modulation (to be able to vary and control the power) is largely irrelevant unless the brakes are either way too bitey (like trials brakes tend to be) or require far too much lever throw once they're engaged (which tends to coincide with a lack of power and/or squishy lever feel).
So answer clearly and specifically: is the lever feel soft (like Avids usually are) or firm (like Hayes usually are)? Because you say and I quote:
"The lever has a very positive bite point but plenty of squidge beyond that which seems to come surprisingly from the hoses used."
...which would tend to indicate that they have a soft feel. But then you go on to justify that by saying you like it anyway (ok, personal preference), and that it's because:
"...the power provided by the lever gives far more pressure at the caliper than your average Avid etc..therefore the hoses do have more expansion when using hard"
Unless the lever blade is ~20% longer than normal brakes, this is not true - fact. Then when people criticise your review and your justifications for things that seem crappy on an expensive brake system, you just leap in with "What would you know, YOU'VE NEVER RIDDEN THEM OMG" etc. Faaaantastic.
You're wrong on two counts there. One, the lever does not give "far more pressure at the caliper than your average brake". Therefore the hose expansion would be likely due to poor quality hoses, rather than the leverage the system has (and therefore the pressure generated at the caliper for a given input). As a sidenote, distinguishing between an imperfect bleed and hose expansion is a tough one - but you seem to have managed this somehow. Anyway, as fatty pointed out, some simple math explains it:
Saint = 9mm diameter master cylinder piston, 2x 22mm diameter slave pistons
Saint = 63.617mm2 master cylinder piston, 2x 380.132mm2 slave pistons (760.264mm2)
Hydraulic leverage ratio = 1:11.951
Brembo = 10mm diameter master cylinder piston, 2x 24mm diameter slave pistons
Brembo = 78.540mm2 master cylinder piston, 2x 452.389mm2 slave pistons (904.779mm2)
Hydraulic leverage ratio = 1:11.520
So the Saint brake is actually more powerful and has more hydraulic advantage over the caliper pistons for a given lever input than the brembo does. That is without taking into account mechanical advantage - like lever length, cam location, etc, which will change the overall leverage and are going to be hard to get accurate measurements for. But in general, that proves that your claim of the brembo "generating more pressure at the caliper" pretty well wrong, unless you have the aforementioned data for all the brakes you are going to compare against.
Count two, is the "giving a little to help with modulation" part. Fatty touched on it but it's going to be a painful discussion as the word gets used here regularly while referring to brakes that aren't bled properly, hoses that expand, and pads that don't bite. Sounds like you are too.
That's hilarious. You dismiss one manufacturers weight, and tell us that the brembo weight is correct without any pictorial/factual evidence to back it up. From what i've seen avid's weights are reasonably accurate, and the avid code is their heaviest brake! That, assuming your weight is correct, makes the brembo one pig of a brake. For the record, juicies and saints are both lighter than codes, and both pack plenty of punch once setup right. You can blabber on about motorsport all you want, but the fact is, mountain bikes are quite different in that they lack... you guessed it... MOTORS. Weight is a big part of mountain-biking, and for the money you spend on the brembo's, I certainly don't see it going anywhere too useful.
Except that given how much water your other argument/s hold, I think we'd definitely want to try a pair for ourselves before we took your word for it. Calling everything else on the market "cheap plastic toys" doesn't really add much credibility either. Writing a crappy review is one thing, but if you're going to jump on what is IMO a fairly knowledgeable forum and flick off opposing opinions, you damn sure better have your facts straight.
why does dhspeedster want to sell us these brakes so badly?
The only brake bolts I've rounded out are reservoir cap bolts. Tiny bolts with threads full or brake fluid instead of lubricant probably cause the problems. I've cut slots into plenty of rounded out hope cap bolts. The one place an external hex head would have been an improvement and they use what looks like a philips head.
I don't (though I'm sure you could find out easily enough), but the only really important part in determining the fluid pressure (and thus result on squishiness) is the master cylinder diameter - the smaller the diameter, the higher the pressure. Obviously higher pressure = more squish. This is of course, assuming the lever blades are the same length - which for Hayes/Shimano/Avid/Hope they appear to be very close to. The Brembos might be longer or shorter, I can't tell exactly how long they are, but they don't *look* significantly different. If you want to compare mechanical advantage ratios, just do what Udi did with a minor modification - calculate the area of ONE caliper piston, then divide that by the area of the master piston. Obviously you need to know the diameters of each, but that's easy enough to find out if you're keen.
Either way - they might be a freakin fantastic brake... but that review WAS pretty poor IMO. I'd still love to try them.