[Jm_]

I feel like this is bizarro world where people are trying to convince me that it's actually a good thing to run with a hyper-sensitive rear brake with the same lever and caliper as the front. For all that extra weight and braking capacity the rear has that I never engage, because it simply locks up way before...and I don't do trials, I feel like that extra weight and braking capacity should be utilized at the front caliper. Make it bigger, give it more power, more heat capacity, etc. The shimano example above was decent...I like how hard the servo-wave up front clamps down. I have many places where I ride where I want to bleed a bunch of speed RIGHT NOW, right on the verge of locking up the front, but that kind of power for the rear brake is just dumb...so most people end up running a smaller rotor so it's not all screwed up...but then they get into the burning through pads fast because the heat capacity is crap with the smaller rotor. People do this IMO because this is how the industry packages brakes. With XC it's more common IME to run different size rotors front and rear, at least I do. No ridiculous 140mm rear rotor, but there the braking is a lot more short-impulse and the same kind of heat-management just isn't as prevalent.

Seems most stuff is being made for e-bikes these days...at least that means actually strong brakes finally for DH...even if they are over-doing the rear.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

@Jm_
Have you considered formula cura brakes with their FCS lever blades? It allows to adjust the leverage. Seems to be what you are looking for.
Maybe you don't like to have mineral oil in the cold?

 

[Lelandjt]

I feel like this is bizarro world where people are trying to convince me that it's actually a good thing to run with a hyper-sensitive rear brake with the same lever and caliper as the front. For all that extra weight and braking capacity the rear has that I never engage, because it simply locks up way before...and I don't do trials, I feel like that extra weight and braking capacity should be utilized at the front caliper. Make it bigger, give it more power, more heat capacity, etc. The shimano example above was decent...I like how hard the servo-wave up front clamps down. I have many places where I ride where I want to bleed a bunch of speed RIGHT NOW, right on the verge of locking up the front, but that kind of power for the rear brake is just dumb...so most people end up running a smaller rotor so it's not all screwed up...but then they get into the burning through pads fast because the heat capacity is crap with the smaller rotor. People do this IMO because this is how the industry packages brakes. With XC it's more common IME to run different size rotors front and rear, at least I do. No ridiculous 140mm rear rotor, but there the braking is a lot more short-impulse and the same kind of heat-management just isn't as prevalent.

Seems most stuff is being made for e-bikes these days...at least that means actually strong brakes finally for DH...even if they are over-doing the rear.

Magura's systems that package a 4-piston front caliper with a 2-piston rear, or doing that yourself with Shimano 4 & 2 would suit your preference. I agree that for a person who does sustained descents and wants less rear brake power, downsizing the rear caliper works better than the rotor.

 

[two-one]

I remember I went down some tracks in La Thuile Italy with 200/180mm rotors with regular SLX 2-pot calipers.... and totally burning up the rear pads and rotor. Those tracks were so long and steep, without any spots to let the system cool down. And weighing 200+ lbs I decided I needed a lot more heat management on the back. I decided to double down by moving to a magura MT5 caliper for the added heatsink capacity and a 200mm rotor. It really made a huge difference for me, giving me back loads of control and comfort. Less arm pump, less stress.

But then a (lighter) buddy of mine wanted to change his worn down shimano 2-pot setup for an alpine vacation, and copied my setup for his bike. He was completely shocked by the amount of power on tap, and kept sliding out his rear tire on critical sections. So during his trip he ran into a bike store, and replaced the rear 200 with a 180, with cheaper brake pads to get back some 'modulation'.

It's different for everyone I guess, and changes to your braking setup needs a lot of retraining to make the most out of it. But I have never had the feeling that my brakes were TOO powerfull, even on the rear wheel. I can always squeeze a bit more subtle.

 

[canadmos]

Enduro & All-mountain bikes are XTR 2-pots on 180s.

Well theres your problem

 

[englertracing]

Sram makes brakes??

they are kind of like the plastic place holder pedals that used to come with bikes.

 

[jonKranked]

did anyone stop and think maybe this all just boils down to the fact that people are running a brake designed for DH on trail and enduro bikes? not a single review i've personally seen was testing them on a DH bike .

 

[4xBoy]

I don't believe anyone rides DH just talks about riding DH.

 

[jonKranked]

I don't believe anyone rides DH just talks about riding DH.

nostalgia for when they didn't suck.

 

[canadmos]

did anyone stop and think maybe this all just boils down to the fact that people are running a brake designed for DH on trail and enduro bikes? not a single review i've personally seen was testing them on a DH bike .

What's the difference in a brake designed for dh vs enduro/trail? They both have the same requirements, stop well when needed, manage heat, don't fade etc.

To me (and yeah some of this is going to be personal preference), it doesn't matter what bike I'm on. The bike and rider need to stop or slow down, thats its goal. Whether I'm riding the same trail on a dh bike or an enduro bike, it doesn't really matter, the stopping requirements are still the same.

 

[jonKranked]

What's the difference in a brake designed for dh vs enduro/trail? They both have the same requirements, stop well when needed, manage heat, don't fade etc.

To me (and yeah some of this is going to be personal preference), it doesn't matter what bike I'm on. The bike and rider need to stop or slow down, thats its goal. Whether I'm riding the same trail on a dh bike or an enduro bike, it doesn't really matter, the stopping requirements are still the same.

you're not wrong, but that's also a gross over-simplification.

 

[Lelandjt]

Well theres your problem

They're sufficient for use, and light. My new gen Ransom is getting the same brakes as my DH since its frame weight is bumping it out of the "lightish" category so I might as well add another 150g for DH brakes.

 

[Lelandjt]

did anyone stop and think maybe this all just boils down to the fact that people are running a brake designed for DH on trail and enduro bikes? not a single review i've personally seen was testing them on a DH bike .

That's a valid point, along with testing probably in wetter conditions. Due to the time of year testing happened they should have only given them to riders who could go to Queenstown or Nelson for some January dry, steep trails on DH bikes.

 

[Lelandjt]

What's the difference in a brake designed for dh vs enduro/trail? Whether I'm riding the same trail on a dh bike or an enduro bike, it doesn't really matter, the stopping requirements are still the same.

The implication is they weren't riding really steep sustained trails on bikes with maximum traction. Makes sense given the time of year testing took place.

 

[4xBoy]

Work better hot even makes mineral oil seem wrong.

 

[Gary]

"Work better hot" just refers to the pads friction against the rotor rather than fluid temperature. And is true of all disc brakes.
#marketing101
#sellthemexactsamedreamyetagain

 

[jonKranked]

That's a valid point, along with testing probably in wetter conditions. Due to the time of year testing happened they should have only given them to riders who could go to Queenstown or Nelson for some January dry, steep trails on DH bikes.

counterpoint to my own point is that reviewing them on non-DH bikes is probably more aligned to how *most* riders purchasing these brakes will use them (given how few people own DH bikes anymore vs enduro bikes).

The implication is they weren't riding really steep sustained trails on bikes with maximum traction. Makes sense given the time of year testing took place.

one thought i've had is that maybe this is finally the point at which someone developed a brake that has enough power you don't need to max out rotor size for optimal performance on non-dh bikes. correct me if i'm wrong, but IIRC all the spy shots of the brakes were from WC DH teams, no?

also, someone on NSMB referred to them as "van mavens" due to the red colors, and i haven't stopped thinking about that.

 

[Dogboy]

counterpoint to my own point is that reviewing them on non-DH bikes is probably more aligned to how *most* riders purchasing these brakes will use them (given how few people own DH bikes anymore vs enduro bikes).



one thought i've had is that maybe this is finally the point at which someone developed a brake that has enough power you don't need to max out rotor size for optimal performance on non-dh bikes. correct me if i'm wrong, but IIRC all the spy shots of the brakes were from WC DH teams, no?

also, someone on NSMB referred to them as "van mavens" due to the red colors, and i haven't stopped thinking about that.

There were EWS racers on them as well.

 

[OGRipper]

I'll take a weight penalty for more power/less effort, particularly on long sustained descents. So I ride 200mm front and rear on trail/enduro bikes (and 220/200 on my ebike). I don't remember ever thinking my brakes had too much power or not enough fade, but the opposite is definitely true.

one thought i've had is that maybe this is finally the point at which someone developed a brake that has enough power you don't need to max out rotor size for optimal performance on non-dh bikes.

Remember the Magura Gustav brake? The brake of choice for tandems BITD.

 

[jonKranked]

Remember the Magura Gustav brake? The brake of choice for tandems BITD.

oh yea! those things go for hot money in the vintage world these days.

 

[jonKranked]

I'll take a weight penalty for more power/less effort, particularly on long sustained descents. So I ride 200mm front and rear on trail/enduro bikes (and 220/200 on my ebike). I don't remember ever thinking my brakes had too much power or not enough fade, but the opposite is definitely true.

i ran 200/200 on my A4s the last 2 season. will see what I wind up needing with the van mavens, but i will be using 200/200 as my starting point. but yes, brakes is one place where i'll take the weight penalty for performance as well.

i might explode if i put a 220 rotor on a 2008 fox 40

 

[SuspectDevice]

Back when Gustav’s were free if ya finished on the Podium at Plattekill, i can confirm that there once were caliper/ master cylinder/burly rotor combinations that were overkill.

any brake math nerds have the numbers on the mc to piston ration on old gustavs with 4-finger levers?

Like the monster t, they felt like trials moto parts we were lucky enough to use.

 

[Westy]

did anyone stop and think maybe this all just boils down to the fact that people are running a brake designed for DH on trail and enduro bikes? not a single review i've personally seen was testing them on a DH bike .

DH bikes go faster so you don't need to brake as much

 

[jonKranked]

DH bikes go faster so you don't need to brake as much

van mavens are gonna make so many braking bumps on flow trails.

 

[Westy]

van mavens are gonna make so many braking bumps on flow trails.

As fatties on e-bike tend to do

 

[jonKranked]

Back when Gustav’s were free if ya finished on the Podium at Plattekill, i can confirm that there once were caliper/ master cylinder/burly rotor combinations that were overkill.

and you'd get a free orange stripe maxxis tire!

 

[jonKranked]

As fatties on e-bike tend to do

me last summer when i saw someone loading their ebike on the chairlift:

 

[jonKranked]

in all fairness, plenty of mid travel trail bikes contributing to the brake bumps too.

 

[Westy]

me last summer when i saw someone loading their ebike on the chairlift:

Resorts are going to need to install lifts to load ebikes on lifts to meet OSHA standards.

 

[jonKranked]

Resorts are going to need to install lifts to load ebikes on lifts to meet OSHA standards.

at least my local mountain the lifties only unload. rider is responsible for loading their own bike.

 

[JustMtnB44]

It makes no sense to me at all to run the same high-power caliper in the rear as the front. You are basically given two non-optimal situations: Run the caliper with a big rotor for ultra-sensitive lock-up, way more sensitive than the front/different modulation, or, run a smaller rotor and suffer the consequences of less heat capacity and faster pad wear. The only thing that makes sense to me is a smaller caliper with a big rotor, unless you are only doing short interval braking, where you never heat up much, then you might be able to get away with the small rear rotor...but that's not my riding by far.

I somewhat agree with you here, which is why I have the Magura MT Trail brakes on my old trail bike. 4 piston front, 2 piston rear (slightly larger pistons than the front), 180mm rotors for both. Ample amounts of braking power for any trail bike situation around here. That said, running 4 piston calipers with 200mm rotors front and rear on my DH bike has never been an issue either, and I think having more stopping power and fade resistance available never hurts for that application.

 

[mykel]

I've been more than happy with the standard 203 / 180 on my trailbike (29) with Dominion A4's.
Needed to bump up the DH bike (276) with T3V4's to 223 / 203 as they felt a bit weak in comparison.
Then again every year they have a bit more of me to slow down.

Many moons ago, I tried same sized rotors on a couple of bikes, and always ended up with a smaller one out back. I realize the bigger rotor does better with heat due to joey-dragging, but I always found the smaller rotor felt better. If I lived where there are real hills, or got out to large rock piles more than a couple times a year, I may feel different. That being said, I would like to try something like the Magura setup or a Hope V4/E4 and play with rotor sizes to satisfy curiosity. Not sure I would want to add levers into that mix and match box though.

Meh, whatever floats yer boat down the hill.

 

[Andeh]

I hated the MT Trails. I'd rather use my brain & finger control to modulate the rear brake than just putting a crappy little caliper on the back.

I think there's a ton of tuning in brake feel to be had between various different brands/thicknesses/diameters of rotors, as well as different brands/compounds of pads. Pick a brake system that you don't hate, then try out different rotor/pad combos to find what works for your riding style & trails.

 

[Westy]

Everyone is a little different but despite the front brake having the most power, people tend to use their rear brakes more, so overall they need to absorb more energy and therefore should be sized similarly to the fronts. I know I wear out rear pads faster than the front. Unless you are using one lever for both brakes having a smaller rear caliper is kind of pointless.

 

[buckoW]

I don't believe anyone rides DH just talks about riding DH.

Who talks about riding DH?

 

[Westy]

Who talks about riding DH?

LAFTER

Lift Assisted Flow Trail Expert Rider

 

[buckoW]

LAFTER

Lift Assisted Flow Trail Expert Rider

« We » taking lifts now? I thought that was for the weak?

 

[Westy]

« We » taking lifts now? I thought that was for the weak?

Loading the e-bike on the lift is hard work

 

[Jm_]

Everyone is a little different but despite the front brake having the most power, people tend to use their rear brakes more, so overall they need to absorb more energy and therefore should be sized similarly to the fronts. I know I wear out rear pads faster than the front. Unless you are using one lever for both brakes having a smaller rear caliper is kind of pointless.

But they don't. They only need to absorb more energy in terms of time, not in terms of peak, so having them built for "peak" is totally inappropriate IMO. It's the kind of usage that causes you to go through pads quicker, but you are only ever operating at a fraction of the forces of the front. That's mainly rotor size for heat dissipation and absorption, IE: the only thing that's going to save your pads, not lever/caliper leverage.

 

[englertracing]

did anyone stop and think maybe this all just boils down to the fact that people are running a brake designed for DH on trail and enduro bikes? not a single review i've personally seen was testing them on a DH bike .

Not

But they don't. They only need to absorb more energy in terms of time, not in terms of peak, so having them built for "peak" is totally inappropriate IMO. It's the kind of usage that causes you to go through pads quicker, but you are only ever operating at a fraction of the forces of the front. That's mainly rotor size for heat dissipation and absorption, IE: the only thing that's going to save your pads, not lever/caliper leverage.

Sm and sports bikes have gigantic 3xxmm diameter front rotors. Moar pistonz up front.
Dual discs in the case of the sports bikes.

They have engine braking...

Mtb doesnt.
So same size discs, rear thicker or vented, or freeza makes sense
Im not sure i love having two different lever feels....
The amount of weight youd save is.....
Maybe having slightly smaller rear pistons would be "optimal"? On brakes with spongey hoses the rear is softer.... that would stiffen/quicken it a bit.....