[manhattanprjkt83]

Here is a picture of the finish:

a 'matte' would be nice...im not that fancy.

Bottom line is some ppl need to buy these and ride them, i'd be willing to give it a shot at this price. I'd like to know if the ERD would lace up nicely to my i9 enduro's...

 

[Jm_]

It was only a matter of time, haha. How much does a carbon-fiber tennis racquet cost?

Anyways, it seems like there are 3 types of companies in this sport.

One type price-gouges the crap out of everyone, charging way in excess for what they provide, sometimes it really costs them that much to make, but comparative processes are far cheaper and give you the same product in the end, other companies of these types just believe that their view of things is the ONLY way, sometimes despite evidence to the contrary. And lastly, there are the ones that are out there charging as much as they can because they offer something that no one else does. It's sometimes far and above what someone would consider a fair price for the amount that it's better than it's next competitor. This is usually a niche manufacturer. These products usually go for around 400-500+% over the next comparable product.

Then there are the companies that do the research and try to offer quality stuff at decent prices. Sometimes they are large companies with lots of R&D, and sometimes they are small specialized companies. They try to price their stuff with the knowledge that there will be competitors and that it will take more than just their initial offering to keep selling products. When they come out with something totally new, it may be 150% of the original product, or in rare cases 200%, but usually it's resonable and not outrageous.

Then there are the companies that will undercut at all costs, they'll take out the "price gouging companies" and make their quick bucks. They likely won't be around forever in any steady state as far as the industry is concerned, but they will leave the "serious" competitors that are in it for the long term. These aren't always crap or under-engineered, in fact sometimes the "best" products are the biggest failures, due to how much is riding on them when a defect or issue is found. These companies balance it all out IMO. It's not all about slave labor, it's about manufacturing processes and materials that may be far more economical and suited to a purpose.

My point? If you are going to start up a company in MTB with a new technology, like carbon rims, you better know what the hell you are doing. The big manufacturers will CRUSH you once they spool up their manufacuring might, and a cheap manufacturer will simply rape you for lack of a better way to put it. Your idea has to be so unique and well executed as to protect you from the other manufacturers, and then you have to expand and change your business as the market dictates. If you don't, you won't be along. $1000 for carbon rims is ridiculous, no matter how good they are, and I'm sure they are good and I will own some soon. If you're not delivering decent value, someone is going to fill the void.

 

[Demomonkey]

27lb DH bike here i come!!!!!

phuc, I am SO last year. My AM bike weighs 32 pounds and change AND its a carbon frame.

 

[frango]

yeah im skeptical of that comment...

china is probably the best place to source carbon materials from right now, you have got to believe that someone is using molds to make cheap knockoffs that are worth a damn.

I have no source at all for my information but in my industry that is how it works (not carbon)

I wouldn't be so sure. Few years ago, Scott got some cheap CF frames from China. Majority of them failed. Taiwan is the place you get quality CF products from.

 

[?????]

It was only a matter of time, haha. How much does a carbon-fiber tennis racquet cost?

Anyways, it seems like there are 3 types of companies in this sport.

One type price-gouges the crap out of everyone, charging way in excess for what they provide, sometimes it really costs them that much to make, but comparative processes are far cheaper and give you the same product in the end, other companies of these types just believe that their view of things is the ONLY way, sometimes despite evidence to the contrary. And lastly, there are the ones that are out there charging as much as they can because they offer something that no one else does. It's sometimes far and above what someone would consider a fair price for the amount that it's better than it's next competitor. This is usually a niche manufacturer. These products usually go for around 400-500+% over the next comparable product.

Then there are the companies that do the research and try to offer quality stuff at decent prices. Sometimes they are large companies with lots of R&D, and sometimes they are small specialized companies. They try to price their stuff with the knowledge that there will be competitors and that it will take more than just their initial offering to keep selling products. When they come out with something totally new, it may be 150% of the original product, or in rare cases 200%, but usually it's resonable and not outrageous.

Then there are the companies that will undercut at all costs, they'll take out the "price gouging companies" and make their quick bucks. They likely won't be around forever in any steady state as far as the industry is concerned, but they will leave the "serious" competitors that are in it for the long term. These aren't always crap or under-engineered, in fact sometimes the "best" products are the biggest failures, due to how much is riding on them when a defect or issue is found. These companies balance it all out IMO. It's not all about slave labor, it's about manufacturing processes and materials that may be far more economical and suited to a purpose.

My point? If you are going to start up a company in MTB with a new technology, like carbon rims, you better know what the hell you are doing. The big manufacturers will CRUSH you once they spool up their manufacuring might, and a cheap manufacturer will simply rape you for lack of a better way to put it. Your idea has to be so unique and well executed as to protect you from the other manufacturers, and then you have to expand and change your business as the market dictates. If you don't, you won't be along. $1000 for carbon rims is ridiculous, no matter how good they are, and I'm sure they are good and I will own some soon. If you're not delivering decent value, someone is going to fill the void.

Agreed. $1000 for an Enve DH rim is a joke. The difference in an aluminum and carbon frame is about $500; aluminum and carbon bars or seatpost, about $70; carbon cranks, $200; carbon dh rims, $1800 per pair... no thanks.

If you build these rims up with high quality hubs, you're looking at spending $7500 on a frame, fork, and wheelset for your downhill bike.

At $300 per rim, they would still be very expensive, but could still be justified. At $500 per rim, maaaaybe the price could be justified, but at $1000 per rim, they may as well not exist. My interest in dumping $2,000 into rims that are going to buildup a wheel three times more expensive, maybe 200 grams lighter, and probably not stronger than Deemax Ultimates is non-existant. Deemax were long considered premium priced wheels, yet the Enve rims make them seem like bargain basement flea market finds.

 

[norbar]

Agreed. $1000 for an Enve DH rim is a joke. The difference in an aluminum and carbon frame is about $500; aluminum and carbon bars or seatpost, about $70; carbon cranks, $200; carbon dh rims, $1800 per pair... no thanks.

If you build these rims up with high quality hubs, you're looking at spending $7500 on a frame, fork, and wheelset for your downhill bike.

At $300 per rim, they would still be very expensive, but could still be justified. At $500 per rim, maaaaybe the price could be justified, but at $1000 per rim, they may as well not exist. My interest in dumping $2,000 into rims that are going to buildup a wheel three times more expensive, maybe 200 grams lighter, and probably not stronger than Deemax Ultimates is non-existant. Deemax were long considered premium priced wheels, yet the Enve rims make them seem like bargain basement flea market finds.

e13 rims are to be 200$ so 300$ for carbon would be VERY reasonable. I doubt they will go under 400$ fast.

 

[?????]

e13 rims are to be 200$ so 300$ for carbon would be VERY reasonable. I doubt they will go under 400$ fast.

Reasonable, yet still much more expensive than anything else. The $1000 price point they're after is no different than if Shimano released a carbon XTR crankset for $5,000. The price is beyond stupid.

Have they actually sold any of these rims to anyone at full msrp yet?

 

[norbar]

Reasonable, yet still much more expensive than anything else. The $1000 price point they're after is no different than if Shimano released a carbon XTR crankset for $5,000. The price is beyond stupid.

Have they actually sold any of these rims to anyone at full msrp yet?

I've seen a few AM enves sold and used for DH so I'm sure some people will for dh.

 

[jonKranked]

Agreed. $1000 for an Enve DH rim is a joke. The difference in an aluminum and carbon frame is about $500; aluminum and carbon bars or seatpost, about $70; carbon cranks, $200; carbon dh rims, $1800 per pair... no thanks.

If you build these rims up with high quality hubs, you're looking at spending $7500 on a frame, fork, and wheelset for your downhill bike.

At $300 per rim, they would still be very expensive, but could still be justified. At $500 per rim, maaaaybe the price could be justified, but at $1000 per rim, they may as well not exist. My interest in dumping $2,000 into rims that are going to buildup a wheel three times more expensive, maybe 200 grams lighter, and probably not stronger than Deemax Ultimates is non-existant. Deemax were long considered premium priced wheels, yet the Enve rims make them seem like bargain basement flea market finds.

compare the price of the DH rims to the other rims ENVE offers. now compare them to the prices of carbon wheels/rims offered by Reynolds, Zipp, HED, and Easton. Enve's price points are right alongside the price points from these other companies. Enve isn't charging more than other companies; the product category itself is just expensive.

It's not that Enve is making carbon wheels that are crazy expensive compared to the competition, it's just that we're not used to seeing these prices for rims/wheels for a DH bike. Road wheels have cost this much for years, its nothing new. Fact is, carbon wheels are a top of the line, premium product. When you want premium product, expect to pay premium prices.

 

[Deano]

i think part of why we think these rims are so nutty priced is also that DH folks often view rims as very disposable- rims for the other categories, triathlon bikes, roadies etc, they expect a rim to last for a very long time.

Most DH folks on or above a certain level ride hard enough to break a few rims every season, or maybe even a rim or two in the summer months.

If the enve rims can last a pro a full season(if their claim that peat rode the same rims for a full season is true) they will most likely last me a lifetime.

 

[tabletop84]

compare the price of the DH rims to the other rims ENVE offers. now compare them to the prices of carbon wheels/rims offered by Reynolds, Zipp, HED, and Easton. Enve's price points are right alongside the price points from these other companies. Enve isn't charging more than other companies; the product category itself is just expensive.

It's not that Enve is making carbon wheels that are crazy expensive compared to the competition, it's just that we're not used to seeing these prices for rims/wheels for a DH bike. Road wheels have cost this much for years, its nothing new. Fact is, carbon wheels are a top of the line, premium product. When you want premium product, expect to pay premium prices.

nevertheless the prices are over the top. A Trek Session or a Santa Cruz V10 in europe costs between 7000-8000€. Next year there will be a yt tues 2.0 carbon for about half of the price. The same will happen or happens already with rims and wheels. I mean it's just a piece of plastic...

If the enve rims can last a pro a full season(if their claim that peat rode the same rims for a full season is true) they will most likely last me a lifetime.

That's a common misconception. Considering the amount of runs the equipment of pros gets much less punishment then from the average bikepark-guy. They ride more fluently have better line choices through knowledge of tracks, don't crash as often etc.

If you have a few big crashes, how do you know that your wheels wont explode after the next big jump? I have several crashes per season that bent my aluminium wheels or at least hard hits from stones on the sidewall. I can't imagine that a carbon rim will take that without developing external or internal cracks over time.

 

['size]

...If the enve rims can last a pro a full season(if their claim that peat rode the same rims for a full season is true) they will most likely last me a lifetime.

their claim is that peaty used the same set of race wheels all year. big difference between a rim that is used for 7 or 8 race runs over a rim that is used for all practice, quali and race runs for a season.

now, their definition of race wheels may very well be wheels used at races, but by using the term 'race wheels' i'm thinking race runs only.

 

[IH8Rice]

compare the price of the DH rims to the other rims ENVE offers. now compare them to the prices of carbon wheels/rims offered by Reynolds, Zipp, HED, and Easton. Enve's price points are right alongside the price points from these other companies. Enve isn't charging more than other companies; the product category itself is just expensive.

It's not that Enve is making carbon wheels that are crazy expensive compared to the competition, it's just that we're not used to seeing these prices for rims/wheels for a DH bike. Road wheels have cost this much for years, its nothing new. Fact is, carbon wheels are a top of the line, premium product. When you want premium product, expect to pay premium prices.

 

[jonKranked]

nevertheless the prices are over the top.

bear in mind we're talking about two completely differently processes. Alloy rim production is largely automated. Carbon fiber rim production is nowhere near as automated.

 

[jonKranked]

here's a video of alloy rims in production.

Production on Vimeo

 

[tabletop84]

bear in mind we're talking about two completely differently processes. Alloy rim production is largely automated. Carbon fiber rim production is nowhere near as automated.

sure but it will get cheaper.

 

[jonKranked]

sure but it will get cheaper.

absolutely agree. but we're not gonna see drastic price drops for a long time. prices for carbon road wheels haven't changed much over the last few years.

 

[dropmachine]

Pricing for road stuff doesn't change because roadies happily pay through the nose for imaginary benefits and parking lot status. Can't have a doctor on $5000 wheels when a measly dentist is riding $6000 ones.

Also just because ENVE is right in line with the others doesn't mean that the price is reasonable. I can't justify 1000 for a rim. For anything. Just can't. Not when I know that an alloy one will last me so long on a DH bike, and that extrapolated over the course of say 10 years the costs of alloy rims will still be much less than a single ENVE.

If they were 500, yeah, I can see it. But at 1000...hard sell.

 

[OGRipper]

You guys make it sound like the Enve guys sit around raking in the dough, trying to figure out ways to alienate potential customers. Do you think they are intentionally pricing their products outside the reach of most DH riders? It should go without saying, but these products are incredibly labor intensive, and they have a huge amount of time and money invested in R&D. They've been working on the DH rims for years and are only now just offering them for sale. I may be wrong but I would guess they have a long way to go before they make ANY money on the DH rims, even at $1K per rim.

 

[?????]

Pricing for road stuff doesn't change because roadies happily pay through the nose for imaginary benefits and parking lot status. Can't have a doctor on $5000 wheels when a measly dentist is riding $6000 ones.

Also just because ENVE is right in line with the others doesn't mean that the price is reasonable. I can't justify 1000 for a rim. For anything. Just can't. Not when I know that an alloy one will last me so long on a DH bike, and that extrapolated over the course of say 10 years the costs of alloy rims will still be much less than a single ENVE.

I would also like to add, that just because the ENVE rim might theoretically last 10 years, doesn't mean that you will want to be riding some old, beat-to-hell dinosaur rim in 10 years. Feel free to bring this thread back up if a 10 year old set of these rims are still $1,000 cool in 2022.

 

[jonKranked]

Pricing for road stuff doesn't change because

It's more likely that pricing hasn't changed because there haven't been any major advances in the automation of carbon fiber rim production.

 

[Sghost]

Pricing for road stuff doesn't change because roadies happily pay through the nose for imaginary benefits and parking lot status. Can't have a doctor on $5000 wheels when a measly dentist is riding $6000 ones.

Also just because ENVE is right in line with the others doesn't mean that the price is reasonable. I can't justify 1000 for a rim. For anything. Just can't. Not when I know that an alloy one will last me so long on a DH bike, and that extrapolated over the course of say 10 years the costs of alloy rims will still be much less than a single ENVE.

If they were 500, yeah, I can see it. But at 1000...hard sell.

 

[p-spec]

Lol,funny to see a bunch of you having no idea about the true properties of carbon fibre.

p.s I have a set of zipp 808 firecrests infront of me,they are 2800 canadian the set.

p.s.s

HED sucks,bontrager dropped them for wheel technology.
this year bontrager has stepped it up big time,the only wheels that can compare to the new aeolus's are zipps.

Eastons dont even compare.

p.s 50 year old men with money buy expensive bikes for the name and the status,but they drop serious money on wheels and other components for comfort.

ALU wheel vs carbon wheel.

1 weights less
1 is cheaper then the other
1 is more comfortable


pick 2

 

[dhr-racer]

I'm not going to read all though the thread, just put in my 2 cents.

My boss ordered these to test them to see if our shop was going to bring them in. He put them on his Anthem Advanced and went to work. Mid season they were starting to show some cracks. Off they came, That was in August. We have yet to get them back from warrenty. I'll give that he rides that carbon Anthem a touch harder then its designed for (cracked his first one) but the rims only lasted 2 months of XC riding

 

[iRider]

ALU wheel vs carbon wheel.

1 weights less
1 is cheaper then the other
1 is more comfortable


pick 2

You are right. Carbon road wheels weigh less and are more aerodynamic while maintain a higher comfort level than alu. But the Enve DH rim isn't lighter than an alu rim. I can't comment on comfort and ride quality as I never had the pleasure to ride one. But imagine, if they were 350 g and fairly durable for DH use. Then all weight weenies would drool over them.
If they really ride that different (and better) from alu rims then the best marketing that Enve could do would be giving out demo wheels at bigger events so people can try them on their own bikes. If you feel an advantage you might be able to justify the money....although the divorce rate would rise significantly.

 

[jonKranked]

I'm not going to read all though the thread, just put in my 2 cents.

My boss ordered these to test them to see if our shop was going to bring them in. He put them on his Anthem Advanced and went to work. Mid season they were starting to show some cracks. Off they came, That was in August. We have yet to get them back from warrenty. I'll give that he rides that carbon Anthem a touch harder then its designed for (cracked his first one) but the rims only lasted 2 months of XC riding

were they built and tensioned properly?

 

[Sghost]

I'm not going to read all though the thread, just put in my 2 cents.

My boss ordered these to test them to see if our shop was going to bring them in. He put them on his Anthem Advanced and went to work. Mid season they were starting to show some cracks. Off they came, That was in August. We have yet to get them back from warrenty. I'll give that he rides that carbon Anthem a touch harder then its designed for (cracked his first one) but the rims only lasted 2 months of XC riding

Wow, I haven't heard of a shop looking to stock these chinese carbon rims before.

 

[IH8Rice]

Wow, I haven't heard of a shop looking to stock these chinese carbon rims before.

i.e.: that would be totally stupid

 

[NoUseForAName]

A couple of years ago, Ritchey was looking for a new factory to build their WCS carbon road forks. All carbon fork from tip to toe. Picked some 'reputable' names from the book.

One of the factories that didn't get the contract, for QC and strength reasons, kept the molds for the fork and began producing them and throwing Ritchey WCS stickers on, selling them on EBAY.

No one noticed until a rider with a fork that sheared at the head tube tried to warranty it through Ritchey.

I'll wait a couple of years on this one thanks.

 

[jonKranked]

A couple of years ago, Ritchey was looking for a new factory to build their WCS carbon road forks. All carbon fork from tip to toe. Picked some 'reputable' names from the book.

One of the factories that didn't get the contract, for QC and strength reasons, kept the molds for the fork and began producing them and throwing Ritchey WCS stickers on, selling them on EBAY.

No one noticed until a rider with a fork that sheared at the head tube tried to warranty it through Ritchey.

I'll wait a couple of years on this one thanks.

counterfeiting like this from the chinese isn't isolated to the bike industry.

 

[p-spec]

considering,most carbon stuff comes out of 3 main factories over-seas

 

[tabletop84]

But the Enve DH rim isn't lighter than an alu rim. I can't comment on comfort and ride quality as I never had the pleasure to ride one. [...]
If they really ride that different (and better) from alu rims [...] If you feel an advantage you might be able to justify the money....

hey guise I herd that this improves your ride too:

 

[Jm_]

compare the price of the DH rims to the other rims ENVE offers. now compare them to the prices of carbon wheels/rims offered by Reynolds, Zipp, HED, and Easton. Enve's price points are right alongside the price points from these other companies. Enve isn't charging more than other companies; the product category itself is just expensive.

It's not that Enve is making carbon wheels that are crazy expensive compared to the competition, it's just that we're not used to seeing these prices for rims/wheels for a DH bike. Road wheels have cost this much for years, its nothing new. Fact is, carbon wheels are a top of the line, premium product. When you want premium product, expect to pay premium prices.

And that's fine, but are all these companies hitting this pricepoint as a "me too!" offering, or are they really trying to control their costs and maximize the value of the product to the consumer? If they are not doing so, they shouldn't be surprised when they get undercut by someone that does!

 

[Jm_]

You guys make it sound like the Enve guys sit around raking in the dough, trying to figure out ways to alienate potential customers. Do you think they are intentionally pricing their products outside the reach of most DH riders? It should go without saying, but these products are incredibly labor intensive, and they have a huge amount of time and money invested in R&D. They've been working on the DH rims for years and are only now just offering them for sale. I may be wrong but I would guess they have a long way to go before they make ANY money on the DH rims, even at $1K per rim.

Maybe not, but there are lots of things I *could* make that would be far more expensive than in an automated process. I guess my point is that a company that makes a very limited product that is very expensive for them to produce is a very precarious position to be in, and many times results in failure. It's a fragile business model IMO and setting yourself up for failure once someone figures out how to do it better.

 

[frango]

In case you wondered how it's made ;> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Vjyjdj-5S5E

 

[jonKranked]

And that's fine, but are all these companies hitting this pricepoint as a "me too!" offering, or are they really trying to control their costs and maximize the value of the product to the consumer? If they are not doing so, they shouldn't be surprised when they get undercut by someone that does!

are you trying to hint at collusion & price fixing?

Maybe not, but there are lots of things I *could* make that would be far more expensive than in an automated process. I guess my point is that a company that makes a very limited product that is very expensive for them to produce is a very precarious position to be in, and many times results in failure. It's a fragile business model IMO and setting yourself up for failure once someone figures out how to do it better.

don't think for a second that the far east is going to figure out how to do it better on their own. cheaper? absolutely. but it sacrifices on quality, as i've previously indicated. when it comes to a US or Euro based company dealing with production in these regions, i can tell you first hand what a huge PITA it is ensuring that they meet quality standards. you almost literally have to beat it into their heads with a hammer.

 

[OGRipper]

Maybe not, but there are lots of things I *could* make that would be far more expensive than in an automated process. I guess my point is that a company that makes a very limited product that is very expensive for them to produce is a very precarious position to be in, and many times results in failure. It's a fragile business model IMO and setting yourself up for failure once someone figures out how to do it better.

Why do you care about the relative fragility of their business? Not really your problem, is it?

But anyway, you're right. The ENVE guys are crazy to pursue the cf DH rim project. Sometimes that's what it takes to push boundaries and be a pioneer. And hey, the bike industry is full of whack jobs with bad business models.

Bottom line is that the products are rad. Try 'em and you will see. Whether the difference is important enough to you to justify the cost is a separate question.

 

[Sghost]

Id like to see how some of you would itemize the price tag of some rims.

Don't forget things like; facility, labor hours, labor rate, legal fees, promotion, developmental costs, molds, and testing equipment.

Remember, non-blackmailed engineers don't work cheap.

 

[ronnyg801]

Id like to see how some of you would itemize the price tag of some rims.

Don't forget things like; facility, labor hours, labor rate, legal fees, promotion, developmental costs, molds, and testing equipment.

Remember, non-blackmailed engineers don't work cheap.

Hey bud, were just DHer's I just wanna drink, smoke weed and ride DH on FREE parts!

Really though, I feel like everyone who is bad mouthing costs is jealous/upset that they can't afford it, and or up in the night on these costs...

If it is too spendy for your wallet so be it, its too spendy for mine too! But I might get a wild hair and SAVE up for some, dunno. Either way I am stoked companies are pushing the envelope of parts. It all trickles down and WE benefit.

 

[jackalope]

Just like to say I actually learned quite a bit reading this thread. That said, I plan on buying a set of these new Chinese rims and heat treating them with a propane torch to make sure they don't crack.

Suck it Enve.