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yo nerd herd/brain trust! should I worry about this?

Beef Supreme

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2010
1,434
73
Hiding from the stupid
Whoever is responsible for all of that are the guilty parties. And guess what, unless you are under the age of 18 you are also at fault. Your vote (or non-vote) matter.
I'd like to think I have a solid track record of voting for the least bad candidate. I am seriously considering writing in Bernie Sanders next year.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Bay Are and NYC - Unless you want to commute 45min to work, you aren't buying a house anywhere near for under $750k.
Middle-class people commute. If you're making 250k in NYC you can either live very well outside the city or moderately well inside. I still consider that "rich", you just have a better quality of life instead of material possessions. My dad commuted into NYC his whole life and never came *close* to making anywhere near that, and my wife lived in NYC on $23k right out of college. $250k is rich, no matter where you live, including Manhattan
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Just read this and thought it was worth bringing up, even though it's from last December.

If the Bush tax cuts are renewed indefinitely, the Treasury will forego a projected $4 trillion in the coming decade, an amount that will be added to the national debt unless Congress cuts the budget. The fiscal commission’s goal, meanwhile, is to reduce deficit spending by roughly $4 trillion over the same period.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
40,375
16,855
Riding the baggage carousel.

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,209
585
Durham, NC
Maybe I am missing something, but if the killed the Bush tax cuts, would that be considered a "tax hike"? I mean, they wouldn't be raising taxes, just restoring them to where they SHOULD have been all along.
Earlier this year when they were set to expire, the conservative/Republicans/Tea Party screamed that they were indeed tax hikes and not just a reset to where they should be.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
41,277
13,391
Portland, OR
Earlier this year when they were set to expire, the conservative/Republicans/Tea Party screamed that they were indeed tax hikes and not just a reset to where they should be.
I figured as much. I haven't watched enough Faux Newz I guess.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Earlier this year when they were set to expire, the conservative/Republicans/Tea Party screamed that they were indeed tax hikes and not just a reset to where they should be.
<TeaTard>See, you keep assuming that where they *were* equates to where they *should be*. Taxes were artificially high before. GWB brought them back down closer to where they should be (zero) according to my worthless Laffer-curve that I drew in crayon. Any hikes now would just make them even further than where they *should* be (zero).</TeaTard>
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
You know, the original Laffer curve was reputedly sketched out on a napkin.

Now, I understand that good ideas can germinate that way. It's rare to see them reach their pinnacle on a napkin, however.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
You know, the original Laffer curve was reputedly sketched out on a napkin.

Now, I understand that good ideas can germinate that way. It's rare to see them reach their pinnacle on a napkin, however.
I agree with the basic, basic, BASIC fundamentals of the Laffer Curve. When taxes are 0%, the government collects $0. When taxes are 100%, the government collects $0. So we have two points on the graph that we know definitively.

EVERYTHING else is pure conjecture. We don't know where the optimal point of taxation is, we don't know if it's the same for all people/income brackets, hell, we don't even know if the shape of the graph fluctuates during boom and bust years. People usually draw it as an upside down U, but it could be a rising line right up to 99.999% before dropping back down to $0 when it hits 100%. The problem with applied economic theory is that you can't run an experiment over, and over, and over again to observe the outcome. We can drop an object 1,000,000 times and observe that it happens to fall at 9.81m/sec squared. Hence the gravitational theory and then the theory of relativity.

With economic theory (and political theory), you can't run an experiment multiple times, you can't account for variables in your tests, and the best you can do is try to cobble together some semblance of similarities between different events.

Clinton raised taxes in the 1990s, and revenue increased. Does that mean taxes should be there or higher? Maybe. Maybe the internet boom increased revenue beyond what it would have normally been. Maybe the "peace dividend" of cuts to the military increased revenues. Maybe China as an emerging trading power increased revenues.

Bush lowered taxes in the 2000s, and revenue decreased. Does that mean taxes should be higher? Maybe. Or maybe the crashing of the internet bubble took it's toll on tax revenues. Maybe increased competition from China and a lingering unemployment rate reduced tax revenues below what they would have been. Maybe the 9/11 attacks, or the financial collapse that followed in '02/03 (Enron, etc) reduced revenues.

We just don't know. And anyone who claims to "know" is lying.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
I agree with the basic, basic, BASIC fundamentals of the Laffer Curve. When taxes are 0%, the government collects $0. When taxes are 100%, the government collects $0. So we have two points on the graph that we know definitively.
And all the rest. Exactly correct.
 

goofy

Monkey
Mar 20, 2004
472
0
olney md.
tip: walter reed is brac-ing to crystal city (read: nougatty soft target), so take the blue line instead of the red line
Most of Walter Reed is moving to Bethesda Naval Med. I should know since I deal with the road work in front of Bethesda and see the work on the hospital grounds on a daily basis. It's not a soft target.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,399
7,785
I agree with the basic, basic, BASIC fundamentals of the Laffer Curve. When taxes are 0%, the government collects $0. When taxes are 100%, the government collects $0. So we have two points on the graph that we know definitively.

EVERYTHING else is pure conjecture.
Some people, namely economists who study the issue, have half of a clue… and I posted about some of that work before: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235292

Hell, you even posted in that very same linked thread…
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Some people, namely economists who study the issue, have half of a clue… and I posted about some of that work before: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235292

Hell, you even posted in that very same linked thread…
I'm sure Greg Mankiw disagrees. If not him, there's another one you can buy for your money. Maybe someone who used to consult with Enron?

It's not like Mankiw wrote the Econ 101 textbo...never mind.

Which again reinforces the idea that economics, no matter how much they desperately want to be, isn't a science.
 

Beef Supreme

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2010
1,434
73
Hiding from the stupid
Holy Shinto. It's like The Lord of the Flies with these people.

Politico said:
House Republicans 0n Wednesday morning were calling for the firing of Republican Study Committee staffers after they were caught sending e-mails to conservative groups urging them to pressure GOP lawmakers to vote against a debt proposal from Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio).

Infuriated by the e-mails from Paul Teller, the executive director of the RSC, and other staffers, members started chanting “Fire him, fire him!” while Teller stood silently at a closed-door meetings of House Republicans.

“It was an unbelievable moment,” said one GOP insider. “I’ve never seen anything like it.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60035.html
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
40,375
16,855
Riding the baggage carousel.
Circular firing squad.... Ready, aim, FIRE!
I think your getting ahead of yourself. The ONLY thing Obama has working in his favor right now is the fact that those ass clowns are trying to eat their own kids. We need them to fight it out for at least another 18 months, after that, Keep firing assholes!