[$tinkle]

Aren't we then just keeping the people of mexico locked in??

qfe

yes we have a system, but it obviously can tolerate more b/c of the huge amout that come over every year.

this doesn't make any sense. are you suggesting b/c people choose to not do what is right, that the system is underused? that the potential hasn't been reached? apply this thinking the next time you contemplate whether to get a driver's license, or not be bothered with it. do you see any problem at all with a sudden flood of millions of people above & beyond those born here & those being naturalized already?

REagan made 12million or so of them legal and 20years or so before that (i forget the administration) they were made legal. Better to make them legal and get their share of revenue into the system instead of the under-the-table-economy that hurts working people.

so reward them for cheating? what a great way to welcome them. i'm sure they won't take advantage of anybody else ever again.

 

[Ciaran]

We should dig a tunnel from mexico to just inside the canadian border.

 

[SPINTECK]

qfe
this doesn't make any sense. are you suggesting b/c people choose to not do what is right, that the system is underused? that the potential hasn't been reached? apply this thinking the next time you contemplate whether to get a driver's license, or not be bothered with it. do you see any problem at all with a sudden flood of millions of people above & beyond those born here & those being naturalized already?
so reward them for cheating? what a great way to welcome them. i'm sure they won't take advantage of anybody else ever again.

I never liked rewarding them for cheating, but you're usually conservative and I wondered how you would react to that b/c it happened under Reagan.


I think there is a wealthy part of the population that really likes the immigrant issue, an issue dividing the republican party. THere's like an elite society that loves illegals, and although there are easy fixes (like the ones I mentioned and even the fence) , everyone in the top ranks knows nothing will be done. BUt it's a great emotional issue to distract from the coporate exploitation of the middle class.

Liberals don't like the policy either, the only real difference is what to do with illegals when they get here and have families, jobs and such, which is a different thread.


So why not a fence, because it's an insult to humanity and a joke of an answer. And because the entire topic is an emotional distration so religious people don't focus on other economic factors that are really backrupting the country and middle class, but blame it on the mexicans. They are definitely the real problem!

SO hire Halliburton to build your mote!

 

[kidwoo]

But that would cripple the US porn industry. THEN WHAT?

You know you can get porn in several "not on betamax" formats now right?



Seriously though.........If I could ban the mustache in my community, I just might get through the line at the grocery store on the same date at which I entered.

It's indirect but dammit..........I'm all for it.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I like the "oil for illegals" concept where Mexico gives the US a barrel of oil for each illegal that crosses the border heading north.

 

[MikeD]

For an obstacle of any kind to be a functional barrier, it needs to be covered by observation. The primary part is the observation. An obstacle is merely an aid to observation, by slowing the subjects' advance and/or channeling them into a more favorable location.

An unobserved obstacle is useless.

Someone undeterred by crossing vast stretches of desert in violation of the law isn't likely to be seriously concerned with getting over a 15' wall or fence. The very idea is political pablum for the masses.

So the answer is to 1) stem the tide of immigrants 2) gain more effective observation (through technical means, as well as manpower).

Stemming the tide requires, as I've said ad nauseum, reducing the appeal of illegal presence in the US. This means removing employment opportunities. This means making it unfeasable to hire illegals through massive financial risk. It also means providing a legal way to WORK (not become a permanent resident or citizen) in the US for a period of time. Couple this with a requirement to return to your country of origin for such authorization, and you've got a self-remedying problem. Meanwhile, deport ANYONE out-of-status coming into contact with authorities. No need to waste funds on witch hunting. Just get rid of 'em as they drift into view, no sob stories allowed. Most "honest" illegals will be going home anyhow to get their guest worker cards.

Also, remove birthright citizenship. Make citizenship in the US contingent upon both parents' legal, permanent(!) residence in the US at the time of birth.

Then, the border patrol can begin employing better technical means (sensors, UAVs, sattelites, etc.) as well as traditional patrols to find those who are still trying to get across. And hopefully, we could get their rules of engagement to be a little more serious. Invading a sovereign border should not be taken lightly.

 

[Westy]

People hate fences for the same reason they hate signs. Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind...

 

[$tinkle]

I never liked rewarding them for cheating, but you're usually conservative and I wondered how you would react to that b/c it happened under Reagan.

reagan also created 200,000 homeless overnight by evacuating the mental health system. this is the 10% of the reagan legacy that troubles me.

So why not a fence, because it's an insult to humanity and a joke of an answer.

israel is quite fond of theirs, as suicide bombing attacks are down significantly. not seeing the 'insult to humanity', especially when this fence/wall would be visible from far less than 1% of 1% the livable region in both u.s. & mexico. for them to be forced to wear a scarlet 'I' might be a bit insulting perhaps, and no one is seriously considering that.

 

[MikeD]

People hate fences for the same reason they hate signs. Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind...

I'm sure you're singing the Tesla version, too.

 

[N8 v2.0]

israel is quite fond of theirs, as suicide bombing attacks are down significantly. not seeing the 'insult to humanity', especially when this fence/wall would be visible from far less than 1% of 1% the livable region in both u.s. & mexico. for them to be forced to wear a scarlet 'I' might be a bit insulting perhaps, and no one is seriously considering that.

not to mention that the East Germans were pretty successful with theirs for 40 some odd years.. and those crazy chinamen.. their Wall worked great for centuries..

 

[$tinkle]

I'm sure you're singing the Tesla version, too.

i'm guessing he likes the idea of the electric fence, then?

 

[MikeD]

Why have the fence when you can simply have the electricity?

A series of coils I could get behind--wow--

 

[Westy]

Wouldn't land mines be easier?

 

[MikeD]

Aesthetics, man.

 

[LordOpie]

Just an FYI FWIW... I don't have any feelings towards illegals, one way or another.

I'm just sayin' that the current system just has to be more expensive than any other. Wouldn't it be cheaper to not spend any money on illegal immigration? Wouldn't it be cheaper to build the wall with the necessary observation that Mike pointed out?

 

[LordOpie]

oh, and again, this all started cuz a coyote (is that term) was arrested yesterday for smuggling.

He's already been deported 22 TIMES!

 

[$tinkle]

Just an FYI FWIW... I don't have any feelings towards illegals, one way or another.

why are you selective in your morality? that is to say, i assume you have feelings toward people who take advantage of the elderly, people who commit dui's, gangbangers, drug dealers, identity thieves, and yet people who at least unlawfully enter our country get a pass???

i don't know how the loopie works.

 

[Westy]

oh, and again, this all started cuz a coyote (is that term) was arrested yesterday for smuggling.

He's already been deported 22 TIMES!

If he got tazed each time I bet he would stop.

 

[LordOpie]

why are you selective in your morality? that is to say, i assume you have feelings toward people who take advantage of the elderly, people who commit dui's, gangbangers, drug dealers, identity thieves, and yet people who at least unlawfully enter our country get a pass???

i don't know how the loopie works.

The dividing line is victimless crimes. Like prostitution should be legal, taxed and inspected. And don't get me started on weed.

Yes, immigration as a whole, to me, it is a victimless crime. Yes, you absolutely have a small percentage of them who are scumbags that need a beating. Oooh, how about this... if you're illegal and you commit a crime, you get a limb amputated, then deported.

If he got tazed each time I bet he would stop.

Unless he likes it.

 

[$tinkle]

The dividing line is victimless crimes. Like prostitution should be legal, taxed and inspected. And don't get me started on weed.

Yes, immigration as a whole, to me, it is a victimless crime. Yes, you absolutely have a small percentage of them who are scumbags that need a beating.

i agree victimless crimes should be treated far more leniently. however, i do not agree that illegal immigration is victimless. in fact, do some quick research into property values in border towns due to illegal immigration....or hospitals...schools...other public services maxed out.

for this crime to be considered victimless would also categorize other crimes as such, like corporate fraud, embezzlement, tax evasion. i mean after all, it too just gets absorbed by a few investors & more broadly by the tax payers, right? see where i'm coming from?

Oooh, how about this... if you're illegal and you commit a crime, you get a limb amputated, then deported.

since you're committing a crime when you are immigrating illegally, why not just make a fence out of woodchippers?

 

[jimmydean]

i agree victimless crimes should be treated far more leniently. however, i do not agree that illegal immigration is victimless. in fact, do some quick research into property values in border towns due to illegal immigration....or hospitals...schools...other public services maxed out.

Boarder towns suck due to location anyway. I know in places like Woodburn, OR where there is a larger amount of low-wage labor needed, nothing would get done without illegals.

As L'Opie said, some need a beating. But the fact is many of the legal citizens in Woodburn could also use said beating.

I say make it into a reality show. Create a huge obstacle course like on Ninja Warrior. Film it, make some coin, and who ever makes it gets a 1 year worker visa.

 

[LordOpie]

i agree victimless crimes should be treated far more leniently. however, i do not agree that illegal immigration is victimless. in fact, do some quick research into property values in border towns due to illegal immigration....or hospitals...schools...other public services maxed out.

My view is more along the lines of SPINTECK's... these people are humans and I think we should move sooner to being a world partner instead of a world taker rather than later.

Majority of these people are no different than our ancestors who came to America looking for an opportunity to improve their lives.

In the end, I care not either way. I've got mine.

 

[$tinkle]

I know in places like Woodburn, OR where there is a larger amount of low-wage labor needed, nothing would get done without illegals.

and 20 yrs ago, it was teenagers who were doing yardwork, basic construction, and busing tables. wtf happened? did we get all high & mighty that 'work' is beneath us? the day of reckoning is long overdue.

I say make it into a reality show. Create a huge obstacle course like on Ninja Warrior. Film it, make some coin, and who ever makes it gets a 1 year worker visa.

awesome show; kinda like what MXC wants to be when it grows up

 

[$tinkle]

My view is more along the lines of SPINTECK's... these people are humans and I think we should move sooner to being a world partner instead of a world taker rather than later.

this is an emotional argument, and so is "what if one of these illegals raped your wife, or killed your family in a dui accident?" while i fully acknowledge their humanity, it shouldn't usurp our sovereignty and our humanity, should it? it isn't as though anyone is suggesting they not be allowed to emigrate from their country. there is already a system in place. get in ****ing line like everyone else!!!

Majority of these people are no different than our ancestors who came to America looking for an opportunity to improve their lives.

exactly what geo-political boundary was brazenly breached by some pilgrims & settlers while others didn't? please take note of the term 'settlers'. i used this to draw a distinction between today & yesteryear. there is nothing being 'settled' here.

as you can tell, i'm not a big fan of cheating, line cutting, stealing opportunities reserved for the law-abiding, and blatant disrespect for the rule of law.

 

[LordOpie]

while i fully acknowledge their humanity, it shouldn't usurp our sovereignty and our humanity, should it?

I agree to the extent that in 15 years, hispanics, especially from Mexico, will have a significant portion of the population that could control democracy via the voting process.

That's my only issue with immigration.

And while I'm cool with lowering my standard of living a little to help the planet, I'm not willing to change it drastically.

Your other argument isn't valid cuz this land "belonged" to the natives. Just cuz they hadn't set up a formal govt doesn't mean the land was free and available. We took it from them.

 

[bullitking]

and 20 yrs ago, it was teenagers who were doing yardwork, basic construction, and busing tables. wtf happened? did we get all high & mighty that 'work' is beneath us? the day of reckoning is long overdue.
awesome show; kinda like what MXC wants to be when it grows up

Im 21... AT LEAST 1/2 of my friends cant put something together with nails and a hammer. Many of them dont know how to start a lawnmower. Forget anything more complex. Leaky faucet? Call the Landlord!... its not so much high and mighty... its softness and common sense-lessness. Life in the SF bay area would STOP without illegals... or at least become very overgrown. In combo with the ice mote, we need to retrain people to be capable of necessary tasks. Maybe a fire moat instead?

 

[$tinkle]

And while I'm cool with lowering my standard of living a little to help the planet, I'm not willing to change it drastically.

now that we know what you are, we're just haggling about the price.

Your other argument isn't valid cuz this land "belonged" to the natives. Just cuz they hadn't set up a formal govt doesn't mean the land was free and available. We took it from them.

you fully understand land we took was previously 'exchanged' between warring tribes as a result of 'conflict', right? would you suggest we have never had the moral authority to defend our declared boundaries b/c we 'stole' it, but the natives did have this authority and sovereignty, even though some of them gained their territory the same way?

by this logic, i have no moral authority to teach my daughter not to smoke pot, drop acid, cheat on tests, steal candy, get into a fight, use foul language in inappropriate settings, pee in people's drinks, speed, lie, gossip, drive while impaired, write bad checks, have unprotected sex, destroy both public & private property, throw snowballs @ cops, etc. because i've done it.

 

[jimmydean]

and 20 yrs ago, it was teenagers who were doing yardwork, basic construction, and busing tables. wtf happened? did we get all high & mighty that 'work' is beneath us? the day of reckoning is long overdue.

I think it has to do with harvesting food is a 10+ hour a day job that teenagers can't do because of school. Construction is an awesome summer job for a teen, but what about the rest of the year?

If crop harvest, corporate landscaping, and construction were only done in the summer, you might have a good case. But as long as my companies lawn needs to be mowed, it won't be done by Johnny down the street with a push mower.

 

[LordOpie]

now that we know what you are, we're just haggling about the price.

Isn't that how everything works?

you fully understand land we took was previously 'exchanged' between warring tribes as a result of 'conflict', right? would you suggest we have never had the moral authority to defend our declared boundaries b/c we 'stole' it, but the natives did have this authority and sovereignty, even though some of them gained their territory the same way?

You are ALL OVER THE PLACE.

To the victor goes the spoils... that's how it works. I never said otherwise. I was simply saying that your argument a few posts back was invalid and irrelevant.

 

[$tinkle]

I think it has to do with harvesting food is a 10+ hour a day job that teenagers can't do because of school. Construction is an awesome summer job for a teen, but what about the rest of the year?

If crop harvest, corporate landscaping, and construction were only done in the summer, you might have a good case. But as long as my companies lawn needs to be mowed, it won't be done by Johnny down the street with a push mower.

but we're not graduating a different number over 20 yrs ago which could explain why we're turning over labor jobs to illegals immigrants. we're getting fatter, lazier, more self-centered, and entitled.

fack, i sound old.

 

[MMike]

You guys are getting away from the real issue....moats

 

[Westy]

You guys are getting away from the real issue....moats

Let me put it into words you can understand.

There is something called the Rio Grand that hasn't worked so well, eh.

 

[$tinkle]

You are ALL OVER THE PLACE.

To the victor goes the spoils... that's how it works. I never said otherwise. I was simply saying that your argument a few posts back was invalid and irrelevant.

ok, i promise i'l have laser-like focus.
what was irrelevant & invalid? use your own words describing what i said so i can better understand how you received it.

(i learned that schyte in counseling before the sudden end to my prev marriage)

 

[valve bouncer]

Let me put it into words you can understand.

There is something called the Rio Grand that hasn't worked so well, eh.

Plus what about hills???? How is water going to go uphill???? I hereby retract my previous support for moats and endorse Mike "the MAN" D's idea of guard towers but only if they are accompanied by minefields, especially if every 10th mine is a tank destroyer.

 

[Westy]

I say we install some large hydraulic jacks along the border that will actually split the earth's crust and push Mexico south separating us by an ocean. Mexico never really seemed like North America anyway.

 

[LordOpie]

I say we install some large hydraulic jacks along the border that will actually split the earth's crust and push Mexico south separating us by an ocean. Mexico never really seemed like North America anyway.

so you want to go all low-rider on Mexico?

 

[Westy]

so you want to go all low-rider on Mexico?

Might as well push Canada north too.

 

[$tinkle]

how 'bout making a wall out of our morbidly obese bedridden citizens? not only would it be an assault on sight & smell, it would be an uncrossable barrier as they start to slowly render.

 

[MMike]

How about a large catapult to launch them back? It could be called the "tacopult"......

Of course not to be used on REAL tacos, because we would want to retain them....as they are delicious.

 

[syadasti]

How about a large catapult to launch them back? It could be called the "tacopult"......

Of course not to be used on REAL tacos, because we would want to retain them....as they are delicious.

Busted