Why can't e13...
- Thread starter - seb
- Start date
Just yesterday I had one seize. Its pretty common for me, at least.
I've not ever had one seize. Which generation are we talking here? The '09 hasn't been on my bike for so long that I can say it won't, but it's the quietest ever.
No problems with my LG-1+ yet.
I've never had mine seize.
It's a tiny bearing that spins a lot. It could wear out.
I'm sure they are making a killing on aftermarket bearing kits.
It's a tiny bearing that spins a lot. It could wear out.
I'm sure they are making a killing on aftermarket bearing kits.
Hi guys,
Typically powerwashing the bearing will lead to the grease being washed out eventually, maintenance every bunch of wet rides should keep the bearing going almost indefinitely. Seb, I imagine you ride in the traditional UK mud all the time...probably some of the worst conditions possible. The (custom) bearing we use from Enduro is specifically designed for hard usage...it is filled with waterproof grease, but with anything it will need to be serviced every once in a while.
The Tech3 roller material was changed to a longer wearing compound (minimal noise difference) versus Tech2.
Cheers,
philip @ e*thirteen
Typically powerwashing the bearing will lead to the grease being washed out eventually, maintenance every bunch of wet rides should keep the bearing going almost indefinitely. Seb, I imagine you ride in the traditional UK mud all the time...probably some of the worst conditions possible. The (custom) bearing we use from Enduro is specifically designed for hard usage...it is filled with waterproof grease, but with anything it will need to be serviced every once in a while.
The Tech3 roller material was changed to a longer wearing compound (minimal noise difference) versus Tech2.
Cheers,
philip @ e*thirteen
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had the same problem, but you can open them up with a knife and clean/regrease them.
I actually had a roller crack and come off the bearing. I used the old bearing in the new roller, and its still goin strong!
Same here. I have to crack the seal on the bearing and re-grease it often. And I ride in dusty dry socal. I never pressure wash, I just wipe the bike off with a rag and mild soapy water.
I don't think that I'm adding anything that Phil hasn't already covered, but for the sake of making sure you guys are taken care of, here goes.
Just like any bearing, you really need to regrease it every so often to keep it working perfectly. Just pop off the seal, and shoot grease in there. We use a special waterproof grease in the bearing for the longest life possible, but that's no substitute for routine maintenance. I suggest Phil Wood grease for routine maintenance.
The idler material changed in 2009, and you can tell apart the new material from the old pretty easily. The newest material is now transparent, and is much more chemical and wear resistant. It won't get enlarged anymore, at least not that we've seen through 2009 and 2010 testing and racing but it never ceases to amaze me what some people can do to their parts. The older material was black, but mostly it was black just to keep other manufacturers from copying the bearing design. Now that the design has been widely copied it didn't make a lot of sense to keep it black..
Just like any bearing, you really need to regrease it every so often to keep it working perfectly. Just pop off the seal, and shoot grease in there. We use a special waterproof grease in the bearing for the longest life possible, but that's no substitute for routine maintenance. I suggest Phil Wood grease for routine maintenance.
The idler material changed in 2009, and you can tell apart the new material from the old pretty easily. The newest material is now transparent, and is much more chemical and wear resistant. It won't get enlarged anymore, at least not that we've seen through 2009 and 2010 testing and racing but it never ceases to amaze me what some people can do to their parts. The older material was black, but mostly it was black just to keep other manufacturers from copying the bearing design. Now that the design has been widely copied it didn't make a lot of sense to keep it black..
Utter twaddle! I've never needed to do that to a rear-mech jockey wheel. And since I run road mechs they tend to last me a couple of years, so it's not like I'm replacing them every 10 minutes from smashing them on rocks. FWIW I think I'd had my LG1+ about 2 months when I first noticed it seizing, similar to others I know. It seems one wet muddy race = problems.
Unless... can you give me a good reason why this application is oh-so different to rear-mechs? Mechs typically just have a bush rather than a bearing - for good reason maybe? Probably lighter/cheaper too, would have thought you'd be all over that. What am I missing?
Other than your opportunity to sell more spare parts, as I'm genuinely not seeing any other explanation, and I don't want to believe that that's the reason...
At least you didn't use the phrase poppy cock!
i've had this happen once because i didn't wash the bike after a really muddy ride. i just popped it open, dumped in some PB then repacked it. no biggie.
I have the same problem. I do not pressure wash either. I would say in the 5-6 years I have been using e13 I have replaced about 5 of them. I never thought about the pully wheels on the rear der. I Have been using the same rear der. for 2 years and no problems. My trail bike has 3 seasons on it.
Old-style MRP bottom rollers (not tried any modern MRP setup) were faulty too, but since their rollers were smooth compared to toothed jockeys it wasn't so much of an issue. They weren't quite so prone to it either.
It was the smoothness of the roller that lead to them seizing though - not enough rotational force to keep it turning, so as soon as they start sticking a tiny bit it just escalates as the chain starts sliding rather than turning the roller. That shouldn't be the case with a toothed jockey though.
It was the smoothness of the roller that lead to them seizing though - not enough rotational force to keep it turning, so as soon as they start sticking a tiny bit it just escalates as the chain starts sliding rather than turning the roller. That shouldn't be the case with a toothed jockey though.
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At least you didn't use the phrase poppy cock!
Still a bit strongly worded Seb, i would have gone for 'balderdash' personally.I did at first, but it seemed a bit strong so I self-moderated
My gamut lower roller has been far better than my lg1. I also ride in the uk, mainly wales and the peak district, and yes our winters, and tight tracks in loamy woods do kill bearings. But I can get a years worth out of my sunday bearings, but repacked my lg1 goodness knows how many times.
OK Seb, not sure exactly what response you are looking for here.
Let me reiterate: If you service your bearing regularly by taking two minutes to grease it, you will get years of trouble free life out of it. This will ensure that your drivetrain operates with less mechanical loss than any other design, especially ones with more than one bearing, bushings, and definitely ones with rollers instead of idlers. I don't know what else to tell you, I wish I had more on the subject for you but I don't.
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Seb- are you absolutely sure it's the bearing?
Could it be that there is so much mud jammed in there beside the bearing that it has stopped rolling? My LG1+ has had this happen, but the bearing is still fine. I just clean it out and it rolls fine again.
Could it be that there is so much mud jammed in there beside the bearing that it has stopped rolling? My LG1+ has had this happen, but the bearing is still fine. I just clean it out and it rolls fine again.
Being from the North East here in the States, we see weather very similar to what seb deals with. I too have encountered this issue with my guide roller but I used a little ingenuity and pulled it out, cleaned it thoroughly, and put some grease on it. Good.As.New. Bikes are finicky things, and need some TLC (as we all know), and a chain guide is no different.
A water proof petroleum product! Thats high-tech sh!t right there. Do the standard bearings come with mud already in them?
An explanation I can think of is bike sag. Your rear derailleur pulleys are more or less in the same spot always. Sounds like you don't wreck them too often so that means you're pretty careful with rear wheel placement and such, therefore, not getting dirt in the pulleys. An e13 lg1 has a taco on it due to the fact that it hits the ground, rocks, logs etc... I have a feeling that your idler spends a lot more time dragging in mud and material that makes it much more prone to seizing.
Another possible reason is that the idler is being fed the chain, not having the chain pulled through it like derailleur pulleys are. This could also make it more prone to lock up. The room for slack in the chain created by the derailleur spring may allow it to seize easier.
Food for thought.
Actually I think it takes 8-10 minutes. That's at least 4x longer than DW said..........
But once a bearing has seized, it's pretty much junk. Yes you can free it up by taking it all apart, regreasing, and working it back and forth until it spins again - but the damage has been done, and next time it will seize even quicker/easier than the first time.
I'd understand (maybe) if I'd had the product on the bike for 6 months or a year and hadn't done anything to it, but this seized much quicker than that, and I hear others have similar experience.
I never maintain my jockey wheels through necessity. Once a year when I rebuild the bike entirely I may do a full rebuild that goes to that sort of level, but they've never been seized, and it's not something I feel should need doing every month/wet ride. Generally I just scrape the mud and gunk out from around them, the same as I do my idler jockey.
Haha
You imply that I don't possess ingenuity? Either that or you really think that it was "ingenious" of you to remove it and clean it, which is pretty worrying! I don't think me raising what seems to be a pretty common complaint about a product is enough to infer a lack of ingenuity on my part
(can you tell I've had a **** day working on someone's website from hell?
)This was all I could think of earlier, but I couldn't really put it into words so gave up trying. Similar to the smooth MRP rollers, the idler doesn't need to seize "as much" as a dereilleur wheel does before the chain will start skipping over it, which prevents it from turning and causes it to seize even more.
I'm not convinced that's the issue though. I'm pretty confident that if I can mount a dura-ace jockey wheel in there (though someone's just suggested it won't fit) that I'd never have seizing issues again. Small bush > big bearing in this application, I think, even though I have no engineering background to base that on
a question - how many teeth are on the LG-1+ idler pulley? if it has fewer teeth than the pulleys of the derailler/mech (even by 1 tooth), then the idler pulley will complete more cycles/revolutions per crank stroke than the derailler/mech pulleys (albeit by a rather small amount). more cycles = faster wear.
However, as it has been stated, in wet muddy conditions, bearings (and bikes in general) will require cleaning/maintenance more frequently than in dry conditions.
Seb - what rear derailler/mech are you running? how many teeth on each pulley? are they on bearings or bushings?
However, as it has been stated, in wet muddy conditions, bearings (and bikes in general) will require cleaning/maintenance more frequently than in dry conditions.
Seb - what rear derailler/mech are you running? how many teeth on each pulley? are they on bearings or bushings?
true, but a derailleur is constantly changing, moving up and down, with more or less stress put on it throughout its range of motion. I would argue that there's more stress back there, especially with the pulleys exposed and hanging so far down. I really doubt it makes much of a difference, in the end though.
I haven't had Seb's failures, but I'll keep an eye out. I wonder what the reasoning for not simply using a jockey pulley from shimano or any of the aftermarket suppliers were, and instead developing proprietary items?
I don't get what the big deal is, perform minor maintenance on your bike (really, just clean it) and it will work for a long long time. I don't think I've ever taken my chainguide apart and cleaned the bearing, I just hit it with a hose and drip some chain lube down there and I've never had an issue. I'll break the chain guide (or a new ISCG pattern will come along) before anything gets worn out.
-KT
-KT
FWIW I think e13s products are great in every other respect, just surprised they can't make a decent idler.
Also what's with the soft material? Again jockey wheels last for yearrrrrrrrs, but I've seen a lot of shredded e13 idlers. Supposed to be quieter I guess - my mech doesn't seem to be particularly noisy.
Also what's with the soft material? Again jockey wheels last for yearrrrrrrrs, but I've seen a lot of shredded e13 idlers. Supposed to be quieter I guess - my mech doesn't seem to be particularly noisy.
Rear derailleur pulleys aren't set into a plastic pocket where mud/dirt can collect and pack up - displacing the grease.
Yes there is some maintenance to it but really nothing to fuss over, Clean and repack it, it isnt inclined to foul up any sooner unless you've already let it go to s*** - also - Jockey wheels, especially orange ones, suck the might wazoodle.
I personnally disassemble/oil/grease my mech pulleys at least 2x a year BTW, but if you couldnt tell already, Im very odd.
Use another brand to avoid this 'headache'? Only if you like inferior products.
Now who's gonna call me a DW/E13 Fanboy? Swallow me 'gasm!!
Yes there is some maintenance to it but really nothing to fuss over, Clean and repack it, it isnt inclined to foul up any sooner unless you've already let it go to s*** - also - Jockey wheels, especially orange ones, suck the might wazoodle.
I personnally disassemble/oil/grease my mech pulleys at least 2x a year BTW, but if you couldnt tell already, Im very odd.
Use another brand to avoid this 'headache'? Only if you like inferior products.
Now who's gonna call me a DW/E13 Fanboy? Swallow me 'gasm!!
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Really everyone?????
Geez, an idler pulley that sits right next to the rear wheel that uses a single radial ball bearing, is wearing out!!! This is a bearing that will have some degree of axial slop and sits in a housing that is a heck of a lot tighter than a rear mech housing. Add to the fact that the bearings' only shielding is (or is like) a soft Buna-N rubber shield and it's no wonder why crud will work its way inside. There's a reason why most rear mechs have a hard stainless or nickel plated steel disc that is packed with grease acting as another line of shielding around the pulley bearing.
Is the e.13 design ideal?? Eh...., but I suspect that it could be revised and optimized pretty easily.
In general I think everyone should stop being so butt-hurt that the mountain bike industry isn't going out of their way to make innovations in bearing sealing in some of the most difficult environmental situations there are out there. It is absolutely CRAZY that $140+ guides exist based on there current designs and manufacturing methods. Boothroyd & Dewhurst would agree.
There's plenty of other fine options out there for guides. There's very cheap ones that work great, and there are very expensive ones that do as well. For those that have issues with seizing bearings maybe you should invest in something that will somewhat work (ala the old MRP example which was given) even if it is frozen due to the pulley design, or something like a Gamut because of the double cartridge bearings and better shedding design. For those of you that suffer pulley damage due to smacking it against stuff, maybe the e.13 is the best choice for you. Whatever the case, there is inevitably going to be some give and take between the different ones based on a number of variables.
If a certain guide doesn't work for you, then maybe it's time to move onto to something that caters a little better to your bike, riding style, cleaning style, service intervals, and riding environment. None of these guides are indestructible, and they are littered with design features and hardware that wears down over time because it's impossible for these parts not to. I guess it's everyone's right to complain, but maybe next time people should evaluate and research future purchases better and not get sucked into marketing, et al. and maybe start having more grounded realistic expectations.
Geez, an idler pulley that sits right next to the rear wheel that uses a single radial ball bearing, is wearing out!!! This is a bearing that will have some degree of axial slop and sits in a housing that is a heck of a lot tighter than a rear mech housing. Add to the fact that the bearings' only shielding is (or is like) a soft Buna-N rubber shield and it's no wonder why crud will work its way inside. There's a reason why most rear mechs have a hard stainless or nickel plated steel disc that is packed with grease acting as another line of shielding around the pulley bearing.
Is the e.13 design ideal?? Eh...., but I suspect that it could be revised and optimized pretty easily.
In general I think everyone should stop being so butt-hurt that the mountain bike industry isn't going out of their way to make innovations in bearing sealing in some of the most difficult environmental situations there are out there. It is absolutely CRAZY that $140+ guides exist based on there current designs and manufacturing methods. Boothroyd & Dewhurst would agree.
There's plenty of other fine options out there for guides. There's very cheap ones that work great, and there are very expensive ones that do as well. For those that have issues with seizing bearings maybe you should invest in something that will somewhat work (ala the old MRP example which was given) even if it is frozen due to the pulley design, or something like a Gamut because of the double cartridge bearings and better shedding design. For those of you that suffer pulley damage due to smacking it against stuff, maybe the e.13 is the best choice for you. Whatever the case, there is inevitably going to be some give and take between the different ones based on a number of variables.
If a certain guide doesn't work for you, then maybe it's time to move onto to something that caters a little better to your bike, riding style, cleaning style, service intervals, and riding environment. None of these guides are indestructible, and they are littered with design features and hardware that wears down over time because it's impossible for these parts not to. I guess it's everyone's right to complain, but maybe next time people should evaluate and research future purchases better and not get sucked into marketing, et al. and maybe start having more grounded realistic expectations.
