[kidwithbike]

Lee, I respect your opinion and look forward to hearing your justification for what you must understand is a fairly incendiary remark.
I am acutely aware GBR had 4 of the top 10 at MSA and are ranked #1 in the to our 5th (with double our points), obviously they are a cycling institution and it is a stronger lifestyle sport there.
but given our resources, terrain, driven athletes, and a population 5 times larger with a strong history of being badasses, we have a huge potential.

how could you take such a defeatist stance on future hopes of America in the WC? i think even with a few junior riders coming on the WC scene it could make a fairly significant impact, maybe more than you would imagine.

 

[Banga]

http://dirt.mpora.com/news/wyntv-week-home.html

Maybe the trail bike is a sign of whats to come...

Nah, Wyns had that for a wee while (before he signed for Pikeybiker)

 

[worship_mud]

WOW, while I generally don't favor your attitude, I at least thought you to be a knowledgeable person regarding sports. I am not suggesting that the nations that are beating us have these things and therefore are faster, but you honestly can't believe that strength training and a competitive team atmosphere wont make a difference.

I've trained at the OTC in CO Springs and Lake Placid. The resources available are invaluable and, If given the opportunity, any serious athlete would be insane to pass up the opportunity.

It is a good thing that US Skiing did not subscribe to your news letter.

Lee, I respect your opinion and look forward to hearing your justification for what you must understand is a fairly incendiary remark.
I am acutely aware GBR had 4 of the top 10 at MSA and are ranked #1 in the to our 5th (with double our points), obviously they are a cycling institution and it is a stronger lifestyle sport there.
but given our resources, terrain, driven athletes, and a population 5 times larger with a strong history of being badasses, we have a huge potential.

how could you take such a defeatist stance on future hopes of America in the WC? i think even with a few junior riders coming on the WC scene it could make a fairly significant impact, maybe more than you would imagine.

all the resource have been there in the US for ever. results in the last decade? none. a MX rider has to come along, do a few races out of boredom and show your guys how it's done, by kicking your "driven athletes" asses. and before gwin it was kyle strait (an overweight former freeride dude) who was the fastest racer in the US. it's laughable to assume that this will change in the near (or even not so near) future. but, who am i to tarnish your dreams....
europe as a whole (and especially the brits and the french) will dominate this sport for a long, long time. every discipline of it.

 

[downhill mike]

call me a party pooper, but all the elevation, riding, and coaching in the world still won't keep the lads from relatively flat old, underfunded, chairlift-free UK from smoking our boys on clapped-out, 3 season old equipment.

there is pretty much no correlation between WC success and proximity to prime riding areas, bike parks, or coaching.

You old schoolers out there remember Gerwin Peters?

So you are saying the U.S. will never have a chance to be the best in the world at our sport? Sorry, but I strongly disagree. If the top pros and the top junior experts in the U.S. had all of the above we would certainly produce some faster racers, and eventually one of the fastest in the world. Maybe even the fastest.

This region just produced 6 Olympic Athletes in the last Winter Olympics alone, and has done that for many athletes since 1932.

Lake Placid and a few other towns were built for these reasons. To train and produce the best athletes on the planet.

 

[downhill mike]

all the resource have been there in the US for ever. results in the last decade?

Maybe the resources (coaches and training centers) have been here but they have not been used to their full potential.

 

[stringbean]

And the flattest continent in the world will still be producing world beaters, with all of 2 ski lift accessible dh tracks. Sam Hill will always be up there, troy's comming through, delfs is always floating around shaun o'connor has been having some solid results and if little rhys willemse has a injury free season he'll be one to watch next year. Not to mention some of the tallent you'll more than likely see in the comming years. raw tallent will win more races in a sport like this than all the traning in the world.

Having said that, it cant hurt, and will give younger riders an extra couple of steps in the right direction.

 

[downhill mike]

I agree with much of that but how much "raw talent" is in the states that has not yet appeared? This will take some time. With more U.S.resorts opening each year and more riders getting into the sport, it's just a matter of time.

Yes I am optimistic but I do believe we have the infrastructure in the town that I live in to help make it happen. Producing world class athletes is nothing new for Lake Placid.

For example: Now that we have a dirt jump park the local kids are killing it (thanks to Kyle Ebbett and a few others). I think you'll see dirt jumpers and downhillers emerge from our little town in the very near future. The local kids here have been becoming world class athletes in other sports. Why not cycling? Just a matter of time.

 

[craftbrewed]

his comment still makes no sense if thats what he meant

I guess what i'm was getting at was that Minnar obviously has an edge over most of the competition. He's the most consistent racer, something a young rider needs to learn. Leov and Neethling while both good racers don't have Minnar's results. So maybe they could too learn a thing or two. As far as Moseley, she's obviously a great racer but what about next year when Rachel is 100%. Can't think that her training with Gee doesn't help her in the same way that Greg would help Moseley. I just want to see Neko, Gwin and other americans have some good results, plus Neko is a fellow Pennsylvanian and a good kid. But why would Santa Cruz ever let Minnar go? Maybe suzuki will build a bike and he can train with Dungey

 

[monkeyfcuker]

IMO the reason the UK is currently right up there is the fact everyone races, any DH'er who thinks himself half decent races.

The competition is pretty fierce from small local races to regional to the now very succesful national series. The most popular regional races sell out within minutes of going on sale and the nationals aren't all that far behind them!

Competition seems to have been bred into UK DH by the lack of decent riding/uplift locations and it's probably going to keep getting stronger.

The last two or three times I've been riding at one local track the place was rammed as there was a kiddy race going on, I was quite surprised at it's popularity! They were all Troy Lee'd up to the max but it was fecking ace to see!

All the bike parks and funky training in the world won't breed fast racers, you need strong local, regional and national races.

I'd actually expect to see even more UK racers racing world cups next year as the national series now has 5 (I think) UCI accredited races this year instead of 3.

That was typed on my phone lol, go easy on my spelling etc!

 

[epic]

I agree with much of that but how much "raw talent" is in the states that has not yet appeared? This will take some time. With more U.S.resorts opening each year and more riders getting into the sport, it's just a matter of time.

Yes I am optimistic but I do believe we have the infrastructure in the town that I live in to help make it happen. Producing world class athletes is nothing new for Lake Placid.

For example: Now that we have a dirt jump park the local kids are killing it (thanks to Kyle Ebbett and a few others). I think you'll see dirt jumpers and downhillers emerge from our little town in the very near future. The local kids here have been becoming world class athletes in other sports. Why not cycling? Just a matter of time.

Maybe you can get the OTC to pay for a WC track on Whiteface. It seems like you'd kinda need that if the athletes were going to train there.

 

[Pslide]

IMO the reason the UK is currently right up there is the fact everyone races, any DH'er who thinks himself half decent races.

The competition is pretty fierce from small local races to regional to the now very succesful national series. The most popular regional races sell out within minutes of going on sale and the nationals aren't all that far behind them!

Competition seems to have been bred into UK DH by the lack of decent riding/uplift locations and it's probably going to keep getting stronger.

...

All the bike parks and funky training in the world won't breed fast racers, you need strong local, regional and national races.

Having lived both places, this ^^^ is probably the most important factor. And the fact that the UK has had a history of DH heros that have pulled everyone else up a notch.

People say there's not much DH in the UK, but that's not true. They may not have the lift accessed stuff, but on any given weekend from May - Oct you can find a race or uplift within driving distance. There are loads of race style tracks to choose from. I'd say the density of rideable DH tracks is higher in the UK than most of the US.

One other factor is that the UK/Europe never got sucked into the freeride scene, which I think has held back US/CA racing.

 

[Pegboy]

As KT had mentioned before, I think the size of the US does not help when it comes to racing. You have a few fast guys here and there but there are so many series and races, they don't compete against each other that much and certainly don't train together. You basically end up with a lot of big fish in small ponds. I think if you were to get all of the fastest guys together to train for a month or so people would learn from each other, competetivness would push people out of their comfort zone and the level would rise.

There is not a sport in existance that would not benefit from increased strength, balance, quickness etc. The OTC has strenght and conditioning coaches that work with all of the olympic athletes, from sprinters to wrestlers to skiers...you name it. They are experts in creating programs that are sport specific and do so in a methodical manner that allows people to peak when necessary. In addition to that, they have dieticians, sport psychologists, massage therepists and access to a cafateria that is open 24/7 with nutritional values listed per item, per serving size.

The point is, if you have an open mind and embrace these things you will get better, no matter what sport. To think otherwise is close minded.

I'm not saying that this will instantly produce podium results but, if it were to happen, over time it will snowball in more ways than one and make a significant difference in our presence in the sport. It has done so in other sports.

 

[Cant Climb]

People say there's not much DH in the UK, but that's not true. They may not have the lift accessed stuff, but on any given weekend from May - Oct you can find a race or uplift within driving distance. There are loads of race style tracks to choose from. I'd say the density of rideable DH tracks is higher in the UK than most of the US.

UK seems to packed with mtb trails in General.
And packed with people who'll get together to shuttle the local DH tracks...
Plus it seems UK riders understand and embrace the fitness aspect of DH better than Americans....

Just read a and article about the vast network of trails in Sheffield. How you can just ride out the front door. Lopes commented a couple years ago how he did an xc ride with Peaty out of is house and never saw some many roots in all his life...

 

[slyfink]

IMO the reason the UK is currently right up there is the fact everyone races, any DH'er who thinks himself half decent races.

The competition is pretty fierce from small local races to regional to the now very succesful national series. The most popular regional races sell out within minutes of going on sale and the nationals aren't all that far behind them!

Competition seems to have been bred into UK DH by the lack of decent riding/uplift locations and it's probably going to keep getting stronger.

The last two or three times I've been riding at one local track the place was rammed as there was a kiddy race going on, I was quite surprised at it's popularity! They were all Troy Lee'd up to the max but it was fecking ace to see!

All the bike parks and funky training in the world won't breed fast racers, you need strong local, regional and national races.

I'd actually expect to see even more UK racers racing world cups next year as the national series now has 5 (I think) UCI accredited races this year instead of 3.

That was typed on my phone lol, go easy on my spelling etc!

My personal opinion is that this is the biggest issue. France has a racing and club culture as well. It seems like Oz too.

I think having a strong amateur racing scene that gets kids involved in racing from an early age is what leads to results on the international stage in all discplines of cycling. I think it's no different for DH.

Having a a facility like the OTC in Lake Placid, with access to lots of races in the near vicinity sounds like a recipe for success to me, especially for youth.

Here in Canada, Bromont has had a training facility also, and it seems to have worked to a certain degree, caus' there's lots of fast racers in Quebec....

my 2c.

 

[Muttely]

UK seems to packed with mtb trails in General.
And packed with people who'll get together to shuttle the local DH tracks...
Plus it seems UK riders understand and embrace the fitness aspect of DH better than Americans....

Just read a and article about the vast network of trails in Sheffield. How you can just ride out the front door. Lopes commented a couple years ago how he did an xc ride with Peaty out of is house and never saw some many roots in all his life...

Haha, See thats the thing with the UK, We cant shuttle anything, private uplifting is more or less totally ilegal and gets places shut down without much leeway. We have to push up and earn every single bit of downwards!

 

[Cant Climb]

Haha, See thats the thing with the UK, We cant shuttle anything, private uplifting is more or less totally ilegal and gets places shut down without much leeway. We have to push up and earn every single bit of downwards!

ohhh....interesting. Did not know that....

...just assummed you could get some cars/trucks going with the bikes...

 

[ph4se_1]

great points about the uk and aussie scene.

strong national and regional race series and lots of tracks in close proximity equals lots of fast racers. also, the fact that there isnt many chairlifts in the UK or australia contributes to the hunger of the riders.they have to work for every bit of downhill by pushing up. I know how this feels as I'm from Ireland where we have to do the same. in my opinion, there is areas of the US where the track is not of a high quality and doesnt warrant a chairlift yet there is a chairlift.... resulting in lazy person syndrome, people taking things for granted etc.

 

[Pegboy]

.... resulting in lazy person syndrome, people taking things for granted etc.

We refer to that as being "American".

 

[bobsten]

Hannah back to Haro???????

 

[aaronjb]

A single thread reminds me of why I stayed away from e-downhilling for all these years. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[boogenman]

So you are saying the U.S. will never have a chance to be the best in the world at our sport? Sorry, but I strongly disagree. If the top pros and the top junior experts in the U.S. had all of the above we would certainly produce some faster racers, and eventually one of the fastest in the world. Maybe even the fastest.

This region just produced 6 Olympic Athletes in the last Winter Olympics alone, and has done that for many athletes since 1932.

Lake Placid and a few other towns were built for these reasons. To train and produce the best athletes on the planet.

NSA produces!

 

[Tootrikky]

I am reasonably to %100 sure that the Brits Aussies, Kiwis, and French are not dominating the sport becasue they do more side bends and sit ups then we do. We have a bigger population, lot's of good riding, and our the home to a majority of the better manufactures. The #1 reason the US is a step behind; MONEY and SUPPORT for US riders who have the talent to compete at a WC level is extremely LACKING. I think we have some cultural differences as well that make it harder for the current US talent to spend a few yrs living at their parents in hopes of breaking into the top 5 at the WC level (because that's what it currently takes to get a salary worth risking your neck for),while their friends are off getting degrees/making money. It's all really in the hands of the customers of the companies with marketing budgets, because if they think supporting racing will increase their profits then we will have riders on WC podiums. Yeah sure Trek and Specialized have jumped back on the bandwagon and hired some proven racers with WC track records, but where were they 5 yrs ago???

 

[worship_mud]

...The #1 reason the US is a step behind; MONEY and SUPPORT for US riders who have the talent to compete at a WC level is extremely LACKING......Yeah sure Trek and Specialized have jumped back on the bandwagon and hired some proven racers with WC track records, but where were they 5 yrs ago???

cut the cr*p! where do you think do the euros, aussies etc get their support from? Trek? Specialized? national federations? LOL! ever been to a race in europe? people are literally showing up in rags, in clapped out renault kangoos (google it!), eat canned food in their tents on the camping site in the pouring rain, riding so f*cked up bikes, that these would get them banned on RM!!!!!! except for the french (not sure about the brits..) NO federation gives ANY money to DH. and, btw, the only US boy in trek's and specialized's WC DH teams is niko mullaly. even US-teams seem to pick their riders based on results and perspectives, not nationalities.
i have no idea, how you come to the conclusion, that there should be "MONEY and SUPPORT for US riders".... it's "do-it-yourself" or "don't-do-it-at-all". to expect, that there will be a fairy tale prince spending money on the DH scene is absurd.

 

[Kevin]

cut the cr*p! where do you think do the euros, aussies etc get their support from? Trek? Specialized? national federations? LOL! ever been to a race in europe? people are literally showing up in rags, in clapped out renault kangoos (google it!), eat canned food in their tents on the camping site in the pouring rain, riding so f*cked up bikes, that these would get them banned on RM!!!!!! except for the french (not sure about the brits..) NO federation gives ANY money to DH. and, btw, the only US boy in trek's and specialized's WC DH teams is niko mullaly. even US-teams seem to pick their riders based on results and perspectives, not nationalities.
i have no idea, how you come to the conclusion, that there should be "MONEY and SUPPORT for US riders".... it's "do-it-yourself" or "don't-do-it-at-all". to expect, that there will be a fairy tale prince spending money on the DH scene is absurd.

Must spred...

 

[P.T.W]

cut the cr*p! where do you think do the euros, aussies etc get their support from? Trek? Specialized? national federations? LOL! ever been to a race in europe? people are literally showing up in rags, in clapped out renault kangoos (google it!), eat canned food in their tents on the camping site in the pouring rain, riding so f*cked up bikes, that these would get them banned on RM!!!!!! except for the french (not sure about the brits..) NO federation gives ANY money to DH. and, btw, the only US boy in trek's and specialized's WC DH teams is niko mullaly. even US-teams seem to pick their riders based on results and perspectives, not nationalities.
i have no idea, how you come to the conclusion, that there should be "MONEY and SUPPORT for US riders".... it's "do-it-yourself" or "don't-do-it-at-all". to expect, that there will be a fairy tale prince spending money on the DH scene is absurd.

^^What he said^^ And to add to it, This is the support we get here in New Zealand http://www.3news.co.nz/Kiwi-mountain-bikers-dealt-another-funding-blow-/tabid/317/articleID/138257/Default.aspx
Yes that's right $8000 dollars TOTAL in 09 for coaching and funding cuts this year while the roadies and trackies get 12mil over four years.
Imo the difference here is that us NZrs and Aussies (cant speak for the UK)get results/noticed/on the trade teams etc, is because we go out an pay our own way to the other side of the world. This is before EXPECTING money/support before we have proven ourselves. I personally know three or four local "kids" who worked their collective asses of all winter here and scraped their way around our nationals for uci points, then headed over to Europe to have a shot at the worldcups.(and qualified for a few unlike a certain young dude on a big team)
I remember Wyn Masters mentioning having to find $30,000 to pay for his world cup season a few years back..... Mostly from working in mining in Aussie in the off season.
Sorry for my rant, this has just been on my mind for a while

 

[Kevin]

Or maybe Yanks just ride like a bunch of pussies?

 

[SylentK]

If I had to eat out of a can in a tent in the rain to ride my bike, I probably wouldn't ride.

You guys sound like my parents telling me they have to walk up the hill both ways in ten feet of snow to get to school.

Wow we have it so much better than you

 

[Percy]

Stop whining you bunch of pansy's!
Ive taken whole weeks off work, driven all night, and payed a small fortune to cross one of the most expensive bits of water in the world. Just so I could race my bike, on a track 2-3 feet deep in dust and pinecones, and end up with a mid pack finish.
And I had a ball doing it, and would do it again in a flash.

Redbull and pastry!!
Nom nom nom!
Glug glug glug!
Raaahhhhhh!

Ride your bike, enjoy it, race if you want, dont if you dont.
New Zealand has some of the best racers cos our tracks are evil, and we just get out there and ****ing do it, not sit at home and whine that no-one is gonna pay for our travel and personal trainer/ masseuse/ wanker to come along and hold our hand/ wipe our ass/ chin dribble, or feed us quails eggs and pate on the balcony of our 15 star hotel room!!

Right, Ive said my bit, Im off to bed so I can go ride me bike tomorrow.

 

[karpi]

There are no countries where Dhers make a good living, period! The truth behind all of it is DH is not an olympic sport... if it were, then there would be a lot more money flowing in, thats about as simple as it can get. If it were like that, then athletes would actually be at a higher level, with profesional training and more money to back them up

 

[Muttely]

There are no countries where Dhers make a good living, period! The truth behind all of it is DH is not an olympic sport... if it were, then there would be a lot more money flowing in, thats about as simple as it can get. If it were like that, then athletes would actually be at a higher level, with profesional training and more money to back them up

Judging by the houses and lifestyle a fair few DH'ers lead..i cant agree that no downhillers make a good living..

 

[BrayDownhill]

New Zealand has some of the best racers cos our tracks are evil, and we just get out there and ****ing do it, not sit at home and whine that no-one is gonna pay for our travel and personal trainer/ masseuse/ wanker to come along and hold our hand/ wipe our ass/ chin dribble, or feed us quails eggs and pate on the balcony of our 15 star hotel room!!

Hahaha! I can't attest to the racing much but having seen the mini NZ camp going on in Morzine this summer I can definitely confirm that there are some seriously sh*t hot New Zealanders living the dream riding their bikes, racing and getting good results on a shoe string budget all across Europe with zero support! What was it 10 of em living out of 2 transit vans, bikes and all?!

Think I remember some UK world cuppers saying this year in some videos that the UK riders do so well because after pushing up the hills you want your run to count and your going to push yourself and your limits. Shuttled runs and uplift runs dont always lend themselves to pushing your limits!

 

[Percy]

Hahaha! I can't attest to the racing much but having seen the mini NZ camp going on in Morzine this summer I can definitely confirm that there are some seriously sh*t hot New Zealanders living the dream riding their bikes, racing and getting good results on a shoe string budget all across Europe with zero support! What was it 10 of em living out of 2 transit vans, bikes and all?!

Think I remember some UK world cuppers saying this year in some videos that the UK riders do so well because after pushing up the hills you want your run to count and your going to push yourself and your limits. Shuttled runs and uplift runs dont always lend themselves to pushing your limits!

Nice!
Its the NZ way, make do with what you've got.
And as we only have one ski field that opens for bikes now, we have to shuttle with cars/ vans/ whatevar Mums driving, or walk.
There are uplift services in Rotorua and Christchurch, with a bus and trailer, but thats about it.

 

[Tootrikky]

Stop whining you bunch of pansy's!
Ive taken whole weeks off work, driven all night, and payed a small fortune to cross one of the most expensive bits of water in the world. Just so I could race my bike, on a track 2-3 feet deep in dust and pinecones, and end up with a mid pack finish.
And I had a ball doing it, and would do it again in a flash.

Redbull and pastry!!
Nom nom nom!
Glug glug glug!
Raaahhhhhh!

Ride your bike, enjoy it, race if you want, dont if you dont.
New Zealand has some of the best racers cos our tracks are evil, and we just get out there and ****ing do it, not sit at home and whine that no-one is gonna pay for our travel and personal trainer/ masseuse/ wanker to come along and hold our hand/ wipe our ass/ chin dribble, or feed us quails eggs and pate on the balcony of our 15 star hotel room!!

Right, Ive said my bit, Im off to bed so I can go ride me bike tomorrow.

I never meant to take anything away from you or anyone other rider's sacrifices to make it to the top of this sport. I think there are some cultural differences between other countries and mine that may be the reason that the US hasn't been more competitive in DH racing. Looking at our moto record, riding areas, population, incomes, and the fact that the top manufactures our based here, points to one thing, CULTURAL DIFFERENCES. I personally do not believe that any other culture/country is more inherently better at DH racing than mine, just that we do not have the same environment for cultivating top level racers. Just trying to get to the root of it, instead I get a bunch blowhards too puff their cheeks...YAY RM!!

 

[P.T.W]

Umm I think we just pointed out (some of) the cultural differences... Some of us in more colorful ways then others eh Percival

 

[Kingswood]

I think we have some cultural differences as well that make it harder for the current US talent to spend a few yrs living at their parents in hopes of breaking into the top 5 at the WC level (because that's what it currently takes to get a salary worth risking your neck for),while their friends are off getting degrees/making money.

We don't have universities or career ambitions in Australia?

 

[Tootrikky]

Not really what I was getting at, but Australians adults have an average of 10.9 yrs of schooling compared to 12 yrs for the average American adult. However Australians average 1814 hrs worked per yr compared to the American average of 1792 hrs. Anyway sorry for ruining/derailing this thread.

 

[kidwoo]

Anyway sorry for ruining/derailing this thread.

It's such a valid, absolutely fascinating thread. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Percy]

Umm I think we just pointed out (some of) the cultural differences... Some of us in more colorful ways then others eh Percival

Yeah nah mate.

Mostly yeah!

 

[BikeMike]

We don't have universities or career ambitions in Australia?

There are differences...a BS takes only three years (vs. four), and trade professions, from what I've seen, are generally both more socially acceptable and economically viable. Also, if you don't have a great education or career, you can always go into mining and make buckets of money, which is a nice backup plan. People also seem to be generally a bit more relaxed about their plans for the future. Hard to say if any of that is enough to make any kind of difference though.

 

[MDJ]

Stop whining you bunch of pansy's!
Ive taken whole weeks off work, driven all night, and payed a small fortune to cross one of the most expensive bits of water in the world. Just so I could race my bike, on a track 2-3 feet deep in dust and pinecones, and end up with a mid pack finish.
And I had a ball doing it, and would do it again in a flash.

Redbull and pastry!!
Nom nom nom!
Glug glug glug!
Raaahhhhhh!

Ride your bike, enjoy it, race if you want, dont if you dont.
New Zealand has some of the best racers cos our tracks are evil, and we just get out there and ****ing do it, not sit at home and whine that no-one is gonna pay for our travel and personal trainer/ masseuse/ wanker to come along and hold our hand/ wipe our ass/ chin dribble, or feed us quails eggs and pate on the balcony of our 15 star hotel room!!

Right, Ive said my bit, Im off to bed so I can go ride me bike tomorrow.

I think you've summed it up pretty good. Americans and spoiled and don't have the drive like people in other countries have. I have had this discussion about others sports from soccer to baseball with many other people and most agree (except Americans) that things are too easy for us and we don't have the motivation. We are becoming a lazy culture. I know a lot of the Americans will disagree with this but so what.

Let me give you one example. I just returned from a week of surfing in Nicaragua. The nicest surf resort was filled with only Americans on week long trips. Everything was taken care of for them and they didn't even have to worry about trying to converse in Spanish. The run down shacks on the beach we loaded with Germans, Aussies, Brits, and South Africans - most of which were around for a month or more. We spoke to very few Americans the whole time. We were in the water at first light with the Germans and were in till dark with the Aussies. The Americans showed up for a lunchtime session and left.