[$tinkle]

i thought surely the dems would like this, since most of their target audience (5 figure incomes & lower) would benefit by lower taxes. But, seems conservatives (& libertarians?) are the major proponents. Besides the obvious lightening of tax burden upon the excessively rich, why is this the one area where dems appear to not want to help the little guy, which is what i thought was one of their major planks?

a trial balloon is being floated in Iraq by US administrator paul bremmer

 

[ummbikes]

I'm all for it if it truly a flat tax. What I mean is no deductions, no tax shelters.

The next issue is how much?

10%, 20%, 30%?

Then there is the question of local taxation.

Do we still have to pay property tax, car tabs, taxes on our telecommunications services?

What about corporate taxes?

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I'm all for it if it truly a flat tax. What I mean is no deductions, no tax shelters.

The next issue is how much?

10%, 20%, 30%?

Then there is the question of local taxation.

Do we still have to pay property tax, car tabs, taxes on our telecommunications services?

What about corporate taxes?

I could be wrong but I think that most versions apply to Federal Income taxes only.

Taxes on property..... are taxes on wealth. Excise taxes. and normally taxed at the state level

Corporate taxes....I haven't really looked at how they are reflected in most flat tax rate ideas.

States have their own control over taxation. To raise money from the people from the state for the state. Sales tax etc. Taxation on exchange of wealth. or State income taxes.

Telecomunication service tax.... Are they federal? I don't know.

I will say this most poverty stricken people won't be able to afford the flat tax as it would be much higher than they pay now it it was going to work.

 

[Westy]

I think the best way to do a flat tax would be to get rid of income tax and have sales tax only. Tax the goods that require government money to be spent. Tax gas for roads, food for farm subsidies. A large % of crimes are commited by drunks, tax alcahol for law enforcement. There would of course have to be a basic tax on everything for things like defence.

 

[I Are Baboon]

I like it if it means more money in my paycheck.

I think it sucks if it means I have to pay more.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I'm all for it if it truly a flat tax. What I mean is no deductions, no tax shelters.

The next issue is how much?

10%, 20%, 30%?

Then there is the question of local taxation.

Do we still have to pay property tax, car tabs, taxes on our telecommunications services?

What about corporate taxes?

Actually computing the tax you pay isn't hard. The trick is coming up with the income number.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Silver
Actually computing the tax you pay isn't hard. The trick is coming up with the income number.

LMAO!

remember you only pay taxes on what you make.

I have people say they don't ever want to win the lottery because they won't get all the money...... WTF?

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by I Are Baboon
I like it if it means more money in my paycheck.

I think it sucks if it means I have to pay more.

it also sucks having that beatles song playing in a tight loop in my head.

- mr heath

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by $tinkle
i thought surely the dems would like this, since most of their target audience (5 figure incomes & lower) would benefit by lower taxes. But, seems conservatives (& libertarians?) are the major proponents. Besides the obvious lightening of tax burden upon the excessively rich, why is this the one area where dems appear to not want to help the little guy, which is what i thought was one of their major planks?

a trial balloon is being floated in Iraq by US administrator paul bremmer

Where do you come up with that 5 figure and lower incomes would pay less tax than they do now?

 

[LordOpie]

Flat tax will never pass as long as the IRS has any power.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
LMAO!

remember you only pay taxes on what you make.

I have people say they don't ever want to win the lottery because they won't get all the money...... WTF?

Yeah, if you're a W-2 employee, a flat tax saves you five seconds of basic calculator work. Any other situation, and the value of a good accountant is made abundantly clear.

Unless you're talking about a flat tax off of gross income, which I've never heard of.

 

[Triphop]

From what I understand the reason the Democrats do not support a flat tax, is because it supposedly hurts the less wealthy the most...and lessens the amount of money for the government to spend.

Say it is set at 20%...having 20% of a low income family taken for taxes, is harder on them then it would be for a wealthy individual.

20% of a $20K income is $4K...
20% of a $60K income is $12K...
20% of a $100K income is $20K...

Versus a progressive tax as we have now, where the poor pay the least % of income and the wealthy pay the highest %. Our current tax system is alot easier on the poor, especially considering there is a point where the poor don't pay taxes at all (but the Democrats still felt they should have been included on the tax rebate Bush instituted). Not to mention the overall amount of tax money to the government would be decreased SIGNIFICANTLY if a flat tax was instituted, resulting in less money for the Democrats and Republicans to spend frivolously.

Republicans just use the flat tax idea as bait to get votes...they would never dream of instituting it either.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by DRB
Where do you come up with that 5 figure and lower incomes would pay less tax than they do now?

i guess i'm being egocentric. Since i've made 5-figures (going back to the late 80's even as a bike messenger), i've paid much more than 20% - and as recent as the last few years more than 50% of all taxable income, when factoring consumption tax.

is there a bait-n-switch i'm not aware of? that is, if forbes were king for a day & implemented his 17%, wouldn't i be paying less at the end of the day (as he would have me believe)?

 

[Damn True]

Well my uneducated opinion (I'm no macro-economist) is that it would be a good thing if it were a flat sales tax.

Everyone buys stuff. People buy stuff comensurate to their income. If you make $100k a year and spend 80% of that and are taxed "X" amount you will pay the same percentage of tax as someone who makes $30k a year and spends 80%.

I think this should apply to individuals and business alike. It shouldn't matter if it's me buying chain lube (bike content), Midge buying a house, or General Motors buying steel.

 

[brock]

Originally posted by Damn True
Well my uneducated opinion (I'm no macro-economist) is that it would be a good thing if it were a flat sales tax.

Everyone buys stuff. People buy stuff comensurate to their income. If you make $100k a year and spend 80% of that and are taxed "X" amount you will pay the same percentage of tax as someone who makes $30k a year and spends 80%.

I think this should apply to individuals and business alike. It shouldn't matter if it's me buying chain lube (bike content), Midge buying a house, or General Motors buying steel.

I agree. Government would propbably get more money out of this scenario too since Amercans tend to spend more than they make.

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by $tinkle
i guess i'm being egocentric. Since i've made 5-figures (going back to the late 80's even as a bike messenger), i've paid much more than 20% - and as recent as the last few years more than 50% of all taxable income, when factoring consumption tax.

is there a bait-n-switch i'm not aware of? that is, if forbes were king for a day & implemented his 17%, wouldn't i be paying less at the end of the day (as he would have me believe)?

$tinkle: Much more than 20% in Federal taxes on a 5 figures of taxable income? That's a pretty good trick. Maybe you should see H&R Block. Are you sure that you aren't including social security, state income tax and medicare into that equation? Forbes plan and most, if not all Flat Tax plans do not address State and Local taxes of any sort nor Federal consumption taxes so you would still be paying those taxes.

Silver: You hit one of the key points. One of the main reasons for a flat tax seems to be simplicity. Which implies that a progressive tax system is complex. The fact is that a flat tax and a progressive tax are the samething to the individual. There is one rate at which you, the individual, will be taxed. (just talking about Federal taxes). The complexity of the current system does not come from the tax rates themselves. Those are easy (virtually anyone can look at a tax table and figure it out) The complexity comes from determining the taxable income and the auditing of what folks say is their taxable income. Just because we change from having a multitude of tax brackets to one, is that going to change the manner in which folks determine their taxable income? Oh you say personal deductions are gone.... most of the plans I see all include all sorts of deductions. Forbes doesn't count investment income at all.

The lower the amount of tax a person pays the less important it is to avoid paying it. Even at 17% folks are going to bend over backwards to figure out ways to get out of taxable income. If you lower it to the point that folks quit cheating and therefore you quit needing to really look for cheaters and truly simplify the system, how much money as the Federal government brought in? Substanially less than it does now.

Which leads to the last point. One of the key elements of most of the Flat tax programs is the fact that they all count on huge spending cuts by the government. But since when has the Federal government ever been considered good at huge reductions in government spending? It doesn't matter who is in control it never happens and realistically I doubt it ever will. So where does that leave us...... I have no clue.

 

[WillRidesRigid]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I'm all for it if it truly a flat tax. What I mean is no deductions, no tax shelters.

APPLAUSE

I would be happy with the current structure minus 2-3% and zer0 deductions as well. Poor people get squat for deductions anyway, the poor and middle class are carrying the burden while the top get a relatively free ride.

Did you know you can deduct the cost of a bigass SUV or truck(GVWR of 6k I believe) that you have no use for if you own a buisness or professional practice(lawyers don't need commercial vehicle tax breaks, but they can deduct their H2 or land rover).

 

[WillRidesRigid]

Oh, and flat tax will never happen because it would put 90% of the already useless IRS out of work.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by WillRidesRigid
APPLAUSE

I would be happy with the current structure minus 2-3% and zer0 deductions as well. Poor people get squat for deductions anyway, the poor and middle class are carrying the burden while the top get a relatively free ride.

Did you know you can deduct the cost of a bigass SUV or truck(GVWR of 6k I believe) that you have no use for if you own a buisness or professional practice(lawyers don't need commercial vehicle tax breaks, but they can deduct their H2 or land rover).

And Mercedes..........

Poor people can do squat and get std deductions......quite a few dollars actually. Now people who qualify to take more in deductions also spend a grip load more. they have to amount to more than the std deduction to be beneficial. The poor can have no qualifying deductions and still get the std deduction.

Itemized deductions are there, but are utilized after spending more money in Mortgage interest, property taxes, etc.

I have a hard time believing the well off get a free ride....relative or not. Yeah they don'tpay taxes.....ever. They have that IRS around their fingers.

Tax compliance is a tricky subject. There is so much out there that people incorrectly apply the rules.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

I have a hard time believing the well off get a free ride....relative or not. Yeah they don'tpay taxes.....ever. They have that IRS around their fingers.

The rich do pay taxes, but it's I would bet its effectively not nearly the 50% that they bitch and moan about. By the time they're done deducting, I bet most will pay the same proportion or less than someone in the under 200k bracket.

I know that one of my friends paid less taxes (in total dollars... not even proportions) as a first year lawyer making serious bank at a law firm, than my other buddy who is a teacher making around 30k a year. Between student loans and his new mercedes, his taxable income was like 20k, even though he was making 120k...

But that's anecdotal... I have no idea what happens on average.

 

[DRB]

The two most important figures to remember are

50% of tax revenues are derived from just 5% of the population.

30% of tax revenues are derived from just 1% of the population.

So the rich may be cheating and stealing their way to paying less taxes but they certainly aren't getting a free ride by any stretch.

 

[Spud]

Damn We are providing Iraq with 87 Billion in Infrastructure spending, reportedly universal health care coverage, and now the flat tax?

Say, I think that would be a great idea for the USA as well. :devil:


Flat Tax Rocks - but I do like my deductible for mortgage interest, the devil is in the details...