tubeless weight
- Thread starter Kntr
- Start date
Maybe it doesn't work for lighter riders, but for me driving the pressure up solved all the issues. Have you tried rising the pressure 5 psi and stuck to it for a while?
Do you use sealant? You really want the tire to seal before you hit the track. Mounting it a day in advance for the seal to dry helps also. But for me it works just like that, mount it, pump it and hit the track.
And this is the only setup that has really worked for me during whole 12 years of riding. Regular tubed setups would just break apart under me. No matter what the pressure, no matter what tubes, no matter what tires.
One cup is never enough to seal a DH tire. Two cups is the normal and this is what Stans recommends for DH tires. Once scoop of Stans weighs 60g. It says it right on the Stans bottle!! And yes even in XC forums.
I've used Maxxis Ulta Lites and Welterweights for years with no problems. They both weigh under 200g.
There is no weight savings going to tubeless. Its been proven over and over again. Yes, there are benefits like less rolling resistance and running lower pressures but less weight is not one.
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so prove it.
also, you're comparing apples to oranges; worst case scenarios from different ends of the spectrum. you don't always "need" two cups of stans to seal. and face it, the average downhiller doesn't use welterweight tubes. Just because YOU have used them without problems doesn't mean that's the norm. Based on the scenario you laid out, there's the POTENTIAL for no weight savings.
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per the Stan's website:
and that's your problem. you're claiming that tubeless will NEVER save weight based on the (false) assumption that everyone is using welterweight tubes.
And your making a false assumption that everyone uses 400-500g DH tubes. That is why I referred to light tubes vs Stans.
I used NEVER when I said one scoop will NEVER seal a DH tire and I stand firm on that. I guess I should have said will NEVER seal a DH tire for very long. It might seal it to begin with, but it will not last. In my case with Schwalbe tires one scoop wouldn't even seal them on Flow rims.
The tubeless vs tubes is just plain dumb. There are too many variables. I agree.
It will seal, but in a week it will start losing air over night. Then if you add another scoop you should be good for a month. I've had it happen over and over again. I hate tubeless. I switch tires too often.please. show me where i said that.
prove it.
Maybe I'm slow or smooth or both,
but light tubes and 30-32psi front and 35-37 psi rear works for me in DHFs. I had to run the same air pressure with tubeless so they wouldn't burp. So for ME there was no weight savings, I could NOT run lower pressures, and it was a mess to change tires. Ill run Ultra Lites and Welter weights. Sam Hill runs Welter Weights a lot of the time. 
Can we agree that 2 scoops of Stans weighs 120g and so do light tubes?
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Wow - you sir, are a burly man.
This is exactly what I've heard as second-hand info from mechanics at WC's. Second Gen. 823's/regular DeeMax are VERY durable and tough rims and as such seem to dice and slice tubes like a sushi chef for riders that are agressive or very tall/burly.
VERY true. As an example I am familiar with, UST Maxxis "DH" tires such as the High Roller and Minion have frighteningly thin and pliable sidewalls that are more like FR casings than true DH dedicated casings. Maxxis does not list how many plys are in their "DH" UST tires, but I do know that they do not have the butyl insert that the standard DH tires have. My friend who rides locally experienced pinchflats with his 823's mounted with Maxxis DH UST Minion DHF's. His rear pinched halfway through his second practice run on very rocky terrain.
I've been aware of this since they became available, but Schwalbe DH tires seem to have MUCH more durable (possibly more dense) sidewall construction that is stiffer and slightly thicker than Maxxis UST "DH" tires. Standard Schwalbe DH tires are tubeless compatible and their new Doc Blue Pro sealant is essentially re-packaged Stan's from what I can tell.
I always wanted to try mounting standard DH tires such as Maxxis, but have seen riders express issues with Stan's sealant incompatibility. I spoke with a Maxxis tech at a WC a few years ago and he said that Maxxis tires are NOT meant to be used with sealant although this is changing for 2013 with their TR (Tubeless Ready) line.
Stab - what kind of sealant do you use with your standard Maxxis tubeless / 823 setup? I've talked with riders in the past who have experienced issues with Maxxis 3C tires sweating oils out of the tread due to the ammonia content in the Stan's formula. Have you experienced anything like this?
This corresponds with what I've learned at races - depending on the tire between 30 and 38psi seems to be the sweet spot.
Exactly! The avg. tire pressure for max grip with tubes is typically much lower than with tubeless.
Stab, thanks so much for the info! This is very helpful in my quest to make a more informed decision with different tubeless setups!
Any further answers you could provide from the above would be much appreciated!
Is it confirmed? Since when that was true? I talked to a Schwable guy at Munich bike expo and he claimed schwable has no tubeless ready dh tires. I really want to try Schwable but they claimed that only their "fr" tires are ust ready so no soft compount tires for me.
I thought all their tires have tubeless ready beads. Or are these only the XC/trail tires?
When I asked the schwable rep he told me only the FR was tubeless ready but he also said something really stupid along "tubeless wont work in dh because the tires will go off the rims"
I used Stan's and Joe's. No tire degradation problems here, at least not during the lifespan of a tire. I never used a Maxxis 3C tire tho. My guess would be that people are using too much sealant. I never used more than two or three container caps/scoops per tire.
Dude if they work for me they should work for you. WorshipMud you here? Care to chime in and affirm my statements?
I wanted to try the Muddy Marys but a friend of mine advised against them because of wear (not a tubeless specific problem). Maxxis cost him double of what he gets Schwalbe for but he said it is still financially more sound to buy the Maxxis.
I've had issues with Maxxis 3C tires and Stan's sealant . DHF 3C and Ardent 3C were sweating oils out.
Norbar, if you can get away with Maxxis UST then you should be able to get away with Schwalbe Muddy Mary FR. This is available in the Vertstar compound (the soft one with a stupid name), it is like 1.5 ply, still has a butyl insert and has proven quite reliable for me at pressures between 26 and 30psi, and at 850 grams for 2.35 is nice and light.
I have tried the Wicked Will in the FR casing and tore through the case, hasnt been a problem with Muddy Mary. Obviously this will only apply if you actually have a use for a 50/50 tyre and like the way it handles.
I have frequently used it as a rear, with a Minion front when the ground gets a bit harder or when there are a lot of flat corners. This pairing seems to be an improvement on the minion/HR combo that suits many people.
I have tried the Wicked Will in the FR casing and tore through the case, hasnt been a problem with Muddy Mary. Obviously this will only apply if you actually have a use for a 50/50 tyre and like the way it handles.
I have frequently used it as a rear, with a Minion front when the ground gets a bit harder or when there are a lot of flat corners. This pairing seems to be an improvement on the minion/HR combo that suits many people.
Oh, and I have succesfully tubelessed Schwalbe FR and DH casing tyres, and Maxxis 2ply. Using whatever sealant comes to hand, but I find stans works the best at gluing the tyre to the rim, slime is terrible - it never seems to properly dry, everything else I have tried is in between the 2. Stans sometimes "bleeds" through Maxxis tyres, but doesnt seem to actually affect anything, they still lose all their knobs before I have any blistering or similar delaminating problems.
Geax list a new sealant in their catalogue that apparently has improved sealing and gluing properties - Pitstop TNT evo. Havent tried it, but i will when i get hold of some.
Geax list a new sealant in their catalogue that apparently has improved sealing and gluing properties - Pitstop TNT evo. Havent tried it, but i will when i get hold of some.
I think I will try out 2 sets. 1 fr and one dh casting. Thanks
btw. Avoid Coffee latex sealant and strips. Both are worst products I've bought in a while.
I've been running Maxxis dh tires with Stan's since '05, with never any tire degradation issues within the lifespan of a tire. I think if you're having issues with tires burping, you need to build up the center of the rim with tape.
If you dont lose weight, you're not doing it right. Superlights over tubeless even if the same weight - tubeless is still going to roll better at the same PSI, no need to drop pressure.One cup is never enough to seal a DH tire. Two cups is the normal and this is what Stans recommends for DH tires. Once scoop of Stans weighs 60g. It says it right on the Stans bottle!! And yes even in XC forums.
I've used Maxxis Ulta Lites and Welterweights for years with no problems. They both weigh under 200g.
There is no weight savings going to tubeless. Its been proven over and over again. Yes, there are benefits like less rolling resistance and running lower pressures but less weight is not one.
There is no downside unless you want there to be and are adamant about it.
Hell, I can seal my Maxxis onto 823's with NO Stans, and they will hold; god forbid I might check/set my tire pressure before a ride (every ride you say? woe is me!) -- I wont do that, because when I run over something sharp, Id like it to seal as opposed to having to pop in a tube.
Just like years of "150mm is too long for a single crown", "Carbon is not for MTB/Downhill" and so on -- the fervid desire to shoot down or disdain tubeless is just another silly fight against change that will succumb as have the others!
So join the biopace chainring, thumbshifter, softride, moto lever shuffle and DANCE!
Stab! Thanks for the info! Very appreciated!
I'll have to experiment I suppose to see what happens with Stan's and 3C standard Maxxis 2ply DH tires. Greg - thanks for your input too!
Norbar - absolutely!
MS-EVIL was running standard Schwalbe MM VertStar DH casing tires tubeless on DeeMax Ultimates last year with Schwalbe Easy Fit bead prep and regular Doc Blue sealant with no issues except for the occasional burp here and there.
For 2011, all tires in Schwalbe's MTB line-up were TR (Tubeless Ready) which means they are standard tires which can be converted to tubeless with the use of a sealant. In other words Schalwbe is saying their standard MTB tires are sealant compatible. This is not the same as UST/Tubeless so it's possible the rep you spoke with wasn't clear on the specifics of your question.
http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tubeless_ready
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I see Im not the only critical thinker here... Even if it didn't go anywhere though, I stand by my armchair physics of it still having less weight.you got to be kidding me. i assume you've never taken physics or chemistry? think this one through.
depending on pressure and temperature, liquids can volatilize into vapor (water on a hot road converts to steam). vapor molecules are super tiny. unless your tires are constructed of glass or steel or some other impermeable material, the vapor will, over time, get through.
this is why old tubeless tires have dried up slime or stan's in them when you take them off.
No. He was very clear about not putting tubeless in dh. His tone suggested I asked about pedofilia not dh tubeless tires. Still he didn't sound very informed.Stab! Thanks for the info! Very appreciated!
Greg - thanks for your input too!
Norbar - absolutely!
MS-EVIL was running standard Schwalbe MM VertStar DH casing tires tubeless on DeeMax Ultimates last year with Schwalbe Easy Fit bead prep and regular Doc Blue sealant with no issues except for the occasional burp here and there.
For 2011, all tires in Schwalbe's MTB line-up were TR (Tubeless Ready) which means they are standard tires which can be converted to tubeless with the use of a sealant. In other words Schalwbe is saying their standard MTB tires are sealant compatible. This is not the same as UST/Tubeless so it's possible the rep you spoke with wasn't clear on the specifics of your question.
http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tubeless_ready
Thanks for the info. I will try both setups.
Hahaha...
Yes... I've had that experience before with reps from other companies where it seemed I had a bit more tech info than they were aware of.
Let me know how it goes - I'll be experimenting with my own setup as well!
Yes... I've had that experience before with reps from other companies where it seemed I had a bit more tech info than they were aware of.
Let me know how it goes - I'll be experimenting with my own setup as well!
At the same expo I was asking an fsa rep about their flatbar which was wrongly listed in their leaflets at 400g! He called some italian lady and she claimed it's ok that it's wrong because it's right in their catalog no one sees
I will keep you posted. Will probably try and order some am tires as well for my new trailbike (well new build)
Why do most WC racers run tubes rather than going tubeless? Tubeless seems like the way to go, to me.