[powderboy]

So I just got the new BIKE in the mail yesterday. The very first thing I saw was the MAXXIS ad on the back cover spread. At first, I thought the bike was the fabled Specialized Epic, but... nope... it was the same design from another company called Merida http://merida-bikes.com.

I remember the wacky German guy at Interbike that made the same suspension design as the Epic also.

What kills me is that someone else invents the technology, but doesn't use the Horst link. Then Specialized comes in, puts a Fox shock and uses the Horst link and calls it the greatest invention since sliced bread.

I guess it's not just good enough for them to own the Horst Link patent, they now have to steal designs from smaller international companies.

Specialized is just the world's largest group of bike theives! :devil:

 

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by powderboy
So I just got the new BIKE in the mail yesterday. The very first thing I saw was the MAXXIS ad on the back cover spread. At first, I thought the bike was the fabled Specialized Epic, but... nope... it was the same design from another company called Merida http://merida-bikes.com.

I remember the wacky German guy at Interbike that made the same suspension design as the Epic also.

What kills me is that someone else invents the technology, but doesn't use the Horst link. Then Specialized comes in, puts a Fox shock and uses the Horst link and calls it the greatest invention since sliced bread.

I guess it's not just good enough for them to own the Horst Link patent, they now have to steal designs from smaller international companies.

Specialized is just the world's largest group of bike theives! :devil:

Oh boy here we go. This has been discussed many times. The Merida design has nothing to do with the Specialized design. Do a search for the Epic to find detailed discussions about this.

 

[powderboy]

Yup... already discussed:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30720&highlight=specialized+epic

But, I still find it interesting that Specialized takes all the credit for simply changing the pivot location and leveraging their relationship with Fox.

So, basically the innovators here are Fox, not Specialized... I can handle that.

 

[binary visions]

Originally posted by powderboy
Yup... already discussed:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30720&highlight=specialized+epic

But, I still find it interesting that Specialized takes all the credit for simply changing the pivot location and leveraging their relationship with Fox.

So, basically the innovators here are Fox, not Specialized... I can handle that.

*cough* Umm, Fox developed the technology that Specialized created. You may not like Specialized, but they WERE the innovator here. It's THEIR technology: they could have gone to any shock company with it.

 

[Surly]

Specialized is just the world's largest group of bike theives!

How so? They BOUGHT the patent for the Horst Link. Name one thing that Specialized has STOLEN that you can support with evidence.

Thank you.

 

[Mr. ShockWave]

Specialized didn't steal anything, but design't it either.

because Specialized bikes are made by Merida....

so problaby Merida told Specialized they could not use the design (even altert) for one year, and then they could do what ever they wanted.

 

[powderboy]

I don't claim to be an expert about suspension design, etc. I just call it as I see it. I first saw the German guy's version of the "Epic" at Interbike last year, now the Merida bike.

If the technology is in the shock and Specialized came up with the whole inertia bearing valve thing, then yeehaw! Good for Specialized.

I'm just saying that to the naked eye, the identical suspension design just looks like a copy. Again, if the whole hubbub is about the inertia valve, then I stand corrected... not theives... just borrowers.

 

[binary visions]

Originally posted by powderboy
I don't claim to be an expert about suspension design, etc. I just call it as I see it. I first saw the German guy's version of the "Epic" at Interbike last year, now the Merida bike.

If the technology is in the shock and Specialized came up with the whole inertia bearing valve thing, then yeehaw! Good for Specialized.

I'm just saying that to the naked eye, the identical suspension design just looks like a copy. Again, if the whole hubbub is about the inertia valve, then I stand corrected... not theives... just borrowers.

Yep, that's it. The whole hubub is that inertia valve: the entire suspension design is to allow the inertia valve to work properly. In order for the valve to operate correctly, it needs to be really close to the rear hub. The actual suspension design is no great shakes. I'm sure it'd work okay with a normal shock, but the whole thing is designed around the inertia valve shock.

 

[JohnMc]

Actually, it would most likely bob fairly badly under power without the inertial shock. All the 'spare' chain tension not canceled out by the lower linkage goes into the shock.

 

[wirly]

I'm not an XC geek like I used to be so I have no interest in the Epic but I threw a leg over one on the top of Downieville and ran it around a bit; that thing felt very very good! Pedaled like a hardtail even out of the saddle and yet bumps and rocks "disappeared." There was no initial hit or hesitation in the suspension before it released to tell you there was some sort of valving going on as it absorbed the bump, it just felt like a normal short travel suspension bike. I was amazed.

A side note since we are talking cool FOX suspension (even if Specialized designed this particular inertial valve), there was a guy racing the Downieville XC who had lost the lower part of one of his legs! I didn’t notice at first because he walked without a limp, but when he kicked back @ the pizza place he had a carbon leg with a carbon leaf spring for the lower part of his shin in front of a FOX shock which absorbed any impacts to his aluminum/titanium "foot." I was so stoked to see a guy who loved biking like any one of us not have to kiss it all bye-bye because of a horrible accident.

After my initial skepticism I kinda thought he had an unfair advantage what with the lower weight leg and built in suspension.

 

[Surly]

How much travel did his "foot" have? Coil or Air? Did you ask if the Avalanche was an option?
In all seriousness, that's really cool. Was it set up with a hinge joint at the ankle, or moke like a linkage that took up the shock from the impact of the "heel" hitting the ground? I'm always intrigued to see what prosthesis engineers come up with allow more natural functioning.

 

[wirly]

How much travel did his "foot" have? Coil or Air? Did you ask if the Avalanche was an option?

Hehe, yeah I was wondering about the upgrade options myself: Avalanch internals, a long travel version, clipless cleat attached directly to the foot, maybe a rebound booster for jumping.

It looked like about an inch or so of travel, air spring for wieght I'd imagine. The shock was mounted vertically about where your achilese tendon might be. It seemed to be mountd on pivots at each end like a rear bike shock. Looked like an mini Alps5 or Vanilla Float (but was not, it was special built for this). In the front, where you might imagine the very front of your shin there was a carbon fiber plate (spring) about 5-7mm thinck and maybe 4-5cm wide. It flexed backwards for sure though it probably also flexed forward, the shock allowing, I forgot to ask. The leaf spring was mounted rigidly to the leg and foot (which was in a shoe so I did not get to see the whole thing) so it acted sort of like ankle might by allowing the foot to flatten to the ground while the leg passed through a range of motion, as well as flexing with shocks to the front or rear of the foot. Since the leaf sprint only flexes rearward and forward a completely vertical hit would not be absorbed by the shock, just like a normal foot. He demoed it a bit and it was cool to watch it working! He was totaly up beat and obvioulsy not letting a bad deal mess up his attitude.

 

[Merwin5_10]

when looking at "new" suspension technology (front or rear) is that sometimes technology has to catch up with ideas. The FS XC market has enjoyed some amazing inovations over the last 4 years. Just a few examples of designs that marked a significant imporvement in creating an efficient, XC worthy FS ride; Rocket 88, Sugar, NRS, Chameleon, Blur, Epic, etc.etc.etc.

Now, if you really examine each of these bikes you can trace their design back to other models, many times by different companies, in some way or another. The point? Many times a designer will come out with a miraculous design, but lacks a major element that can pull the whole together. In this case the suspension is not new. Its the use of a great idea coupled with a new technology that creates another stride in FS technology. In five years someone might find the missing link that takes the old "Y-frame" pogo sticks like the Fisher Joshua (an absolutely miserable FS XC design) that makes yet another "revolutionary, must have, most efficient ever made" bike.

CHALLENGE
for all the suspension geeks out there.

Take the designs mentioned above, or any other current production design, and trace its lineage back as far as you can, using specific models and designs, the specific problem it solved, and the years of production.

 

[JMAC]

WTF how dumb can people be the rear suspension was only put in that position so the brass valve on the Brain shox can be as close to the rear hub as possible. They didn't steal it from any one. Why don't read about it before making some stupid comment against specialized.
:devil:

 

[KonaDude]

Originally posted by powderboy
So I just got the new BIKE in the mail yesterday. The very first thing I saw was the MAXXIS ad on the back cover spread. At first, I thought the bike was the fabled Specialized Epic, but... nope... it was the same design from another company called Merida http://merida-bikes.com.

I remember the wacky German guy at Interbike that made the same suspension design as the Epic also.

What kills me is that someone else invents the technology, but doesn't use the Horst link. Then Specialized comes in, puts a Fox shock and uses the Horst link and calls it the greatest invention since sliced bread.

I guess it's not just good enough for them to own the Horst Link patent, they now have to steal designs from smaller international companies.

Specialized is just the world's largest group of bike theives! :devil:

If it's as easy as taking a Merida frame, using a Fox shock, and slapping on a Horst Link, why didn't you do it?

Specialized's Epic is an awesome idea, like most ideas out there. The fact that the Horst link was added changes suspension performance COMPLETELY from a non-Horst Link (I am in no way implying that either one is better). The inertia valve is the big deal though, as others have said.

I just don't like the misconception that making frames is as easy as just deciding to change something. We're not talking LEGO here, we're talking welding, machining, CAD design, FEA, everything. Even for Taiwanese mass-produced items, somebody still has to design most/all of the bike!

 

[binary visions]

Guys, freaking RELAX. He misunderstood. He was set straight. He knows better now.

Find something better to do.

 

[SpasticJack]

What I think is really funny is that Spec'd recycled their original "we're glad some guys stayed in the science club" ad from the first FSR bike (circa '93). they just replace the old red bike's picture with the epic picture.

 

[KonaDude]

Originally posted by binary visions
Guys, freaking RELAX. He misunderstood. He was set straight. He knows better now.

Find something better to do.

I'm quite relaxed. I realize he misunderstood, wanted to make sure he got it straightened out.

For me, knowing this stuff is my job. I work in a bike shop, and also am half of a bike company that has some big stuff happening pretty soon. I have spent years acquiring my knowledge and wouldn't for a moment consider anything else a better thing to do. A lot of hard work has gone into my understanding of bikes.

I don't take offense to what you said, nor am I attacking you, just want this to be clear.

 

[cman]

the combined axel/skewer for the front hub .
I have a nice (old, circa 1993) Pulstar hub with a Salsa handle on the combined axel/skewer , that came out ages before Spezi started selling their Stout hubs with Skraxel ( or what ever they called it.
But Ok , maybe they bought Pulstar also
Cheers

 

[binary visions]

Originally posted by KonaDude


I'm quite relaxed. I realize he misunderstood, wanted to make sure he got it straightened out.

For me, knowing this stuff is my job. I work in a bike shop, and also am half of a bike company that has some big stuff happening pretty soon. I have spent years acquiring my knowledge and wouldn't for a moment consider anything else a better thing to do. A lot of hard work has gone into my understanding of bikes.

I don't take offense to what you said, nor am I attacking you, just want this to be clear.

Actually, my comment was more directed towards JMAC.. You just put forth a rational explanation.. JMAC just made a nasty comment about dumb people making assumptions. I said "guys" just because I was reminding both of you he had been set straight: the "relax" was for JMAC only .

Cheers!

 

[KonaDude]

Originally posted by binary visions


Actually, my comment was more directed towards JMAC.. You just put forth a rational explanation.. JMAC just made a nasty comment about dumb people making assumptions. I said "guys" just because I was reminding both of you he had been set straight: the "relax" was for JMAC only .

Cheers!

Yeah, no problem at all here. I was just kinda covering my arse.

I think the public has to realize that most things happen for a reason, and that while in their minds things that cause problems for them may make no sense. People bash 1.5 but don't realize any of the FACTS about it. People bash M arches and Cryofit without realizing the bigger picture. It happens. I don't mind, I'll straighten them out. People making nasty comments, on the other hand, is not cool.

As long as everything's cool now, it's all good!

 

[powderboy]

All good.. no worries... I'm straight as an arrow now!

 

[rfemurfx]

the more i navigate thru RM the more aggrivated i get. this mindless quaviling (sp?) over "i know more" is F*ck'n ridiculous. opinions are opinions. but facts are facts, and if you do not know the facts try to educate yourself through the knowledge of others or research it on you own. it seems to me that this site was not originaly set up to see who can put the most posts. the way i see it, all bikes with pivots are a four bar linkage (o.k. well not ALL), those with out are single pivots.
i would like to see more facts or explanations following comments, not just endless jibberish.

 

[Merwin5_10]

What kind of facts are you looking for? Since our collective knowledge here seems to be well beneath yours, educate us. I mean, I guess we should be leary of reviews from independent sources comparing 5, 10, even 15 different bikes at once. Or the information from factory reps on what a bike was intended to do, and the purpose it was designed to address. And to actually listen to people who design bikes. Yeah, I see what you mean. Our sources are really bad.

 

[Merwin5_10]

the way i see it, all bikes with pivots are a four bar linkage (o.k. well not ALL), those with out are single pivots.

All tires are round.
All rims have spokes.
All frames are welded.
All gears shift.
All brakes stop.
All shocks compress, and rebound again.


Do you really think its just that simple?

 

[rfemurfx]

you have made my point very clear with your response. i do not feel i have superior knowledge nor am i saying what i know is right. what i was trying to state is the needless replies such as yours.
i am not here to save the world nor to give all the answers to the bike industry. listening to the people who design bikes IS a very good way to acquire information, but as history has shown us, what actualy happened is not always what was actualy written.

 

[Merwin5_10]

Now I understand exaaaaaactly what you're looking for.
In the way of facts, I mean.

 

[rfemurfx]

alright merwin, i see you like to be the Jack-*ss!

my original post was not directed towards you or anyone else in perticular. what i was saying is that snotty replies such as your and this one are not really needed. but to answer what i meant by providing facts is, simply present your argument with a real explanation. just saying "an FSR is awsome, 'cause it works" is not an explanation.
i agre it is not as simple as i said, but wasnt meant to be taken in literal sense. it was meant to strike responses as to thier differences.

so what is the difference between a Kona rear end, a Giant (not refering to the NRS), and an FSR?

 

[KonaDude]

Originally posted by rfemurfx
alright merwin, i see you like to be the Jack-*ss!

my original post was not directed towards you or anyone else in perticular. what i was saying is that snotty replies such as your and this one are not really needed. but to answer what i meant by providing facts is, simply present your argument with a real explanation. just saying "an FSR is awsome, 'cause it works" is not an explanation.
i agre it is not as simple as i said, but wasnt meant to be taken in literal sense. it was meant to strike responses as to thier differences.

so what is the difference between a Kona rear end, a Giant (not refering to the NRS), and an FSR?

I don't know if your comment above was directed more towards me or anything. I like to back up my replies with facts, sometimes I don't really see a need to, but most of the time I do. Usually I try to avoid posting if I don't know much/anything about the subject in question.

I agree with you, opinions are awesome and important, but it REALLY helps credibility if it's backed up with facts.

Off to bed with Shrek...

 

[Surly]

so what is the difference between a Kona rear end, a Giant (not refering to the NRS), and an FSR?

Kona and Giant are 4 bar pivots. I believe Kona refers to their design as a "walking beam" 4 bar.

FSR is Horst link.

Pivot placement is important. Is that a fact? Yes it is.

the way i see it, all bikes with pivots are a four bar linkage (o.k. well not ALL), those with out are single pivots.

Factually speaking, bikes without 4 bar linkages are many things--URT's for one example. Additionally, a hardtail is not a 4 bar. According to your statement, it should be a single pivot.

A set of bikes is not a bike. A set of sets, is, however a set. See axiomatic theory. See what I mean?

 

[KonaDude]

Originally posted by Surly


Kona and Giant are 4 bar pivots. I believe Kona refers to their design as a "walking beam" 4 bar.

FSR is Horst link.

Pivot placement is important. Is that a fact? Yes it is.



Factually speaking, bikes without 4 bar linkages are many things--URT's for one example. Additionally, a hardtail is not a 4 bar. According to your statement, it should be a single pivot.

A set of bikes is not a bike. A set of sets, is, however a set. See axiomatic theory. See what I mean?

Factually speaking, I don't think the simple classification of 4-bar or single pivot is useful or accurate anymore. It was 4 years ago, not now with so many different suspension designs around.

Kona and Giant are 4 bar linkages, but the linkage only activates the shock and doesn't affect wheel path.

FSR is also a 4 bar linkage, but the linkage also affects wheel path and therefore performance under braking and pedalling.