[Sandwich]

ok, so I slammed my bike around whiteface this weekend, and two things:

my "clunk" has ironed itself out. There is no play and the noise is gone. I'm guessing something either broke in like it was supposed to, or it came from the headset or something and I tightened it down properly. My fork is older, too. That being said:

THIS BIKE RULES. I'm so happy with it. The geometry is spot on. I need to work on the shock adjustment slightly, but being able to bunnyhop is a pretty neat addition.

 

[m.m.w.]

Now I had the problem myself with the axle having play in the rear part of the DW link. I wonder if this must have been right from the beginning or if it was knocking out from riding. If it came from riding, won't this happen again after loctiting it?


Btw. the bearings don't have much grease inside. I think it's the best to open them carefully (!) and fill them with grease completely and put the cover back on. At least from the side that is reachable without unmounting the bearings. When my bearings felt rough, it was only because of rust inside...

 

[Udi]

If you follow my instructions to the dot (be generous with the bearing retainer, and note that the 24-48 hour cure time is critical, you cannot touch the bike at all in this time period - patience is key)... then I can almost guarantee that it won't happen again. The reason that it may have occured during riding is that the parts were free to move against each other, causing wear and play. The loctite bearing retainer fills the gap and removes play and movement of the parts against one another, which eliminates play and wear simultaneously.

I hope that helps. I also had another cool idea for the bearings that I've been testing for the last month or two with great success, I'll post some pictures.

Basically, if you ride in mud a lot (and pressure wash), the rear lower link bearings will fill up with dust and mud over time, because while they are shielded from the outside, they are open on the inside, sealed only by their own seal. Unfortunately because they are full complement bearings, there is a small gap in the bearing race that can let grease out and contaminants in, so what it needs is a secondary seal.

The gap between the extended inner race and the swingarm seat is perfect to house an o-ring, so this is exactly what I did. You will have to try several sizes to find one that seals the gap, but does not add excess stiction/resistance to the rotation of the bearing (please rotate the bearing inner race by hand to make sure there is minimal stiction). I wish I knew the size of the o-rings I used, but I just found the best fitting ones I had available so I'm not sure about sizing.

Before this mod, this is what those rear lower link bearings can end up looking like. Keep in mind all the other ones were good, but those particular ones cop a lot of abuse, because that area fills up with mud quite easily. Also, this was after about 1.5 years (+ 2 race seasons) of both wet and dry riding.

Since the o-ring modification, the new bearings seem to look new inside with no contamination or grease loss after a few months of mud and washing.

 

[Udi]

THIS BIKE RULES. I'm so happy with it. The geometry is spot on. I need to work on the shock adjustment slightly, but being able to bunnyhop is a pretty neat addition.

Good to hear it worked out for you, they really are great bikes. I love mine to bits, and after putting some of those angled reducer cups in, I feel like the geometry is absolutely spot on (it was great before, but now it's even better on the steep and wide open stuff).

Plenty of new bikes out since these things, but so far I'm yet to ride anything that matches the geo of and accelerates quite like the sunday!

Some random pics of mine to add credibility, haha -

 

[Sandwich]

Nice shots. I dig the mud-covered second one. Reminds me a bit of the after shot this weekend, but our mud was more dirt and less water.

My only disappointment is with the shock, I'm having a hard time getting the rebound as fast as I would like...and my adjuster is maxed out. Not sure whether I should look into getting a PUSH rebuild, a factory MX tune (if it ever comes out), try to find a vivid a-tune, or something else....hmmm. Oh well. It's making me excited to ride again, which is a very good thing.

 

[m.m.w.]

@Udi
That O-Ring is a good idea, but too late for me as I already fixed it. I only had Loctite 243 for threads then and tried it. It seems to work after one day of riding it. If it gets loose again because 243 doesn't work, I'll get it out easily again to try a real bearing retainer.
Further on, you could take a tough and more water resistant grease.

 

[slowmtb]

Like the mud shots too Udi

Quite a few of us run mud barrier guards on our IH, we just cut to shape and cable tie plastic shields to the front of the triangle, stops a LOT of the mud from getting to the lower link bearings. Every bit helps.

Couldn't make out from the pic if you have something similar fitted

 

[Udi]

slowmtb - I did consider it, and it would help, but being a weight weenie (and a wanker) I wanted to attack the problem at its root. Often my hose gets directed at that crevice when washing too, so it's good to know it's all sealed up now.

mmw - unfortunately 243 isn't the same thing, if you have any problems with it later, clean it all out and try the 609 next time. It's a green liquid. If you don't have any problems though don't worry.

 

[m.m.w.]

Yep

In that mud, doesn't the cable grind down the DW link or the CNC part of the main frame when it's moving? I once had 1 mm grinded off from the DW link at a muddy day. Then I fixed the cables at the vertical tubes so they can't touch the link anymore. They are fixid 2 cm higher than yours which works good. But your solution looks much better.

 

[Kenneth]

Seeking for some advice:

My Sunday came with a Rockshox Vivid 4.1 without external compression adjustment, just want to know if that really makes a difference considering it's already got the DW-link doing its magic, as I've already had the spring rate/sag dialled(I weigh 150lbs, run a 300lb spring with approx. 30% sag) but the bike still seems to bottom out quite frequently.

Would a shock replacement be ideal in this case? And has anyone tried a CCDB, or a Fox RC4? Does the latter even fit in the Sunday frame?

 

[Sandwich]

I don't think more compression damping will necessarily help with bottoming specifically. The way I see it, if you like the way the bike rides, you don't necessarily need the adjustments. On my brooklyn, I never felt the need to diddle the dials, the bike just rode so great in every condition. The fork was another story, but the shock and rear end were pretty dialed.

That being said, if you feel that you can't get the shock where you want it with the adjustments you have, it might be time for a new one or a re-tune. I'd like to speed up the rebound on mine and my dial is maxed out, so I either have to replace it or just deal. The bike does ride very well the way it is, but I think it could be better.

 

[davep]

Seeking for some advice:

My Sunday came with a Rockshox Vivid 4.1 without external compression adjustment, just want to know if that really makes a difference considering it's already got the DW-link doing its magic, as I've already had the spring rate/sag dialled(I weigh 150lbs, run a 300lb spring with approx. 30% sag) but the bike still seems to bottom out quite frequently.

Would a shock replacement be ideal in this case? And has anyone tried a CCDB, or a Fox RC4? Does the latter even fit in the Sunday frame?

That seems like plenty of spring (possibly more than typical). I have no idea what is missing in the Vivid 4.1 vs the 5.1, but with a different body/cap, it is not simply a matter of buying the 5.1 parts and putting them in (like many RS products).

The older CCDB tunes did not work so well with the sunday. The newest (2010) tune sounds promising, but I know of no one who has a) got a hold of one and b) put it on a sunday to test. I am pretty sure the RC4 will have clearance issues....but I dont have a Vivid link, and that has a bit more room than the prior versions. Fluidride could most likely tell you if the RC4 will fit.

I can tell you that with a stock DHX, I was over-using travel in g-out type situations and had my rebound adjuster as fast as possible. With some custom work (Push) the ride is more compliant over harsh hits, the bike resists over-travel better , and my rebound adjuster is right in the middle of its adjustment (all with the same 350# spring and me ~190lbs).

 

[Kenneth]

davep - The sole difference btw 4.1 and 5.1 should be the lack of the external adjustment for the compression damping.
One thing I don't get is how a faster rebound setting can control the amount of travel used and prevent over-travel. To my limited understanding, the rebound damping controls the speed of the rebound stroke, so it doesn't quite interfere with the compression stroke right? And with so quick a rebound setting, won't you get bucked off when landing jumps or so?

 

[davep]

What i was getting at with the Vivid differences, is that it is not a simple swap of parts to make a 4.1 into a 5.1 as you could do to change the Tune levels in the Vivid or for example make a boxxer ride into a team into a WC. All of these changes simply involve installing the upgraded/differing parts. The 4.1 resevior end cap is a different casting from the 5.1, so if you could get the resevior passage damping valve parts (most likely quite possible) you could not instal them on a 4.1 as there is no provision for fitting the parts into the new body.

I dont think anyone said that rebound adjustments would have any affect on compression damping or over-travel (at least in an ideal shock). However, some shocks use a common bleed through the rebound needle and adjusting the rebound can have a small change to compression. Also, if your rebound is too slow, it can prevent your suspension from 'fully' extending between compression events, leading to the suspension packing down and becoming harsh...

The overall point is that the Sunday is able to and works best with lighter damping in both the compression and (moreso) rebound circuits. It was also designed around a fairly progressive shock and thus has a rather linear rate throughout the travel. These 'issues' add up to a frame that IMO is an ideal candidate for some level of custom tuning.

 

[Iceman]

Here's a quick one for all you suspension gurus out there:

I bought a DHX 5.0 "off the shelf", what tuning must be done to mount it on a Sunday frame? I cannot tell if it came in A or B tune.

Second question, I'm planning to run a Ti spring from DSP, riders weight ~165 lbs (75 kg). From calculations I should run a 300-350x3.00 spring, which of them do you recommend?

My third question concerns my stock spring size, the shock came with a 400x3.25 spring - can I mount the YYYx3.00 spring on it? The eye-to-eye lenght is correct.

Please help this rather confused suspension newbie, any guidance is appreciated

 

[Udi]

You can bolt the DHX5 straight in, I'm of the opinion that there is little to no difference between the OEM Sunday DHX5 and the aftermarket ones (our distributor here compared the two a while ago and said the same thing).

The DSP spring will work, make sure you get the normal one (not the vivid one), and for a 165lb rider I'd recommend the 300lb spring (in fact on a shock with better damping you'd possibly be on a 275lb spring ideally), so definitely take the 300 if your choice is between 300 and 350. Yes the 3.0" stroke spring will fit and work.

For some starting settings, I'd suggest the following -
Rebound: 3-5 clicks in from full open
Boost: 120psi
Bottom out: 1.5-3 turns in, start at 1.5 and increase if bottoming
Propedal: 3-5 clicks in from full open

Change to suit after that. I recommend more compression damping than has been suggested earlier in this thread, because technically, the only reason the sunday needs less compression damping is because it doesn't need it to cater for pedal-bob reduction. But it still needs to be there for chassis stability.

However, those suggested settings assume you are running a correctly sprung and relatively-well compression damped fork as well; so if that doesn't describe you, 100psi and 0-2 clicks of propedal may be a better option.

Hope that helps.

 

[JohnnyC]

the bike still seems to bottom out quite frequently.

Define quite frequently

There is nothing wrong with bottoming a shock once or twice a run, as long as it isn't a nasty bottom out and the shock works as you like it the rest of the time.

 

[Iceman]

You can bolt the DHX5 straight in, I'm of the opinion that there is little to no difference between the OEM Sunday DHX5 and the aftermarket ones (our distributor here compared the two a while ago and said the same thing).

The DSP spring will work, make sure you get the normal one (not the vivid one), and for a 165lb rider I'd recommend the 300lb spring (in fact on a shock with better damping you'd possibly be on a 275lb spring ideally), so definitely take the 300 if your choice is between 300 and 350. Yes the 3.0" stroke spring will fit and work.

For some starting settings, I'd suggest the following -
Rebound: 3-5 clicks in from full open
Boost: 120psi
Bottom out: 1.5-3 turns in, start at 1.5 and increase if bottoming
Propedal: 3-5 clicks in from full open

Change to suit after that. I recommend more compression damping than has been suggested earlier in this thread, because technically, the only reason the sunday needs less compression damping is because it doesn't need it to cater for pedal-bob reduction. But it still needs to be there for chassis stability.

However, those suggested settings assume you are running a correctly sprung and relatively-well compression damped fork as well; so if that doesn't describe you, 100psi and 0-2 clicks of propedal may be a better option.

Hope that helps.

Many thanks to you Udi, I'll start working from there. The fork I'm running is a Fox40, also in need of a dial up...

 

[JohnnyC]

Many thanks to you Udi, I'll start working from there. The fork I'm running is a Fox40, also in need of a dial up...

I"ll be interested to hear how that goes, the DHX has a pretty huge range of external adjustment so in theory the settings Udi suggested should work pretty well.

I did know a few people who bolted stock DHXs in to their sundays and they all thought it didn't worked that well, they all thought it was overdamped but then again it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't set up properly.

 

[jgdj18]

Hey guys. I was after some help on deciding what to do with the rear DHX 3 on my 07 sunday team. The rear shock has never been serviced (despite this it feels pretty good) and so I'm looking to get it serviced as its well overdue. I think that while I get it serviced, I'm also going to get it PUSHed by DirtWorks in Australia. Does anyone have any experience on how PUSHed DHXs perform in Sundays. UDI?

Also, I have a question about spring weight. I weigh 85 kg or 187 lbs, and so according to the first post in this thread I should be runing a 400lbs to 450lbs coil. However, I only run a 350lbs coil on the DHX 3 and with my WC boxxers set at 140psi this feels great and balanced. It bottoms on huge G outs and harsh landings occasionally, but thats about it. Could anyone comment about if I should really try a 400lbs spring, of if I should try say a 375lbs titanium spring, and if they predict after the shock is PUSHed if I'll have to change the spring?

Thanks for your time and any help is appreciated

 

[davep]

Hey guys. I was after some help on deciding what to do with the rear DHX 3 on my 07 sunday team. The rear shock has never been serviced (despite this it feels pretty good) and so I'm looking to get it serviced as its well overdue. I think that while I get it serviced, I'm also going to get it PUSHed by DirtWorks in Australia. Does anyone have any experience on how PUSHed DHXs perform in Sundays. UDI?

Also, I have a question about spring weight. I weigh 85 kg or 187 lbs, and so according to the first post in this thread I should be runing a 400lbs to 450lbs coil. However, I only run a 350lbs coil on the DHX 3 and with my WC boxxers set at 140psi this feels great and balanced. It bottoms on huge G outs and harsh landings occasionally, but thats about it. Could anyone comment about if I should really try a 400lbs spring, of if I should try say a 375lbs titanium spring, and if they predict after the shock is PUSHed if I'll have to change the spring?


Thanks for your time and any help is appreciated

read post 2027

 

[Udi]

I'd stick with the 350lb spring too, a friend of mine weighs about what you do (perhaps a hair more) and ran the 350 in his sunday with no dramas. Especially if you have a reasonably well damped shock, it should be perfect.

Also, the normal PUSH service costs a lot here, so it's probably worth considering whether it's actually worth it - IMO it's not, for that money (or maybe a little more) I'd personally either want the PUSH MX tune, or spend a bit more and get a better shock.

I guess if you subtract the cost of a normal service it doesn't sound like that much though.

 

[slowmtb]

I'd stick with the 350lb spring too, a friend of mine weighs about what you do (perhaps a hair more) and ran the 350 in his sunday with no dramas. Especially if you have a reasonably well damped shock, it should be perfect.

Also, the normal PUSH service costs a lot here, so it's probably worth considering whether it's actually worth it - IMO it's not, for that money (or maybe a little more) I'd personally either want the PUSH MX tune, or spend a bit more and get a better shock.

I guess if you subtract the cost of a normal service it doesn't sound like that much though.

If you are gonna do it, get the MX done. Might as well do it right.

 

[jgdj18]

I'd stick with the 350lb spring too, a friend of mine weighs about what you do (perhaps a hair more) and ran the 350 in his sunday with no dramas. Especially if you have a reasonably well damped shock, it should be perfect.

Also, the normal PUSH service costs a lot here, so it's probably worth considering whether it's actually worth it - IMO it's not, for that money (or maybe a little more) I'd personally either want the PUSH MX tune, or spend a bit more and get a better shock.

I guess if you subtract the cost of a normal service it doesn't sound like that much though.

Thanks for your help guys.

I have to confess I don't know the difference between MX tune and the normal tune. Does anyone care to explain it to me? I guess I could just ask Dirtworks myself...

Udi, do you know much about Tekin? How would you compare that to PUSH?

 

[slowmtb]

Thanks for your help guys.

I have to confess I don't know the difference between MX tune and the normal tune. Does anyone care to explain it to me? I guess I could just ask Dirtworks myself...

Udi, do you know much about Tekin? How would you compare that to PUSH?

The MX tune gives you a re shim and adds in hi and low speed compression adjustment. Once you get that bad boy dialed you won't know your self. A great way to turn an average shock into a good performing versatile one.

http://www.littermag.com/2009/first-look-push-factory-mx-tune-for-fox-dhx-shocks/

 

[OB1]

Any Sunday linkage problem solvers in here? My lower pivot(link/tri) has a lot of play when tightened down. It has brand new bearings. And...my upper left pivot(link/tri) is allowing link and triangle to "grind" into eachother. The "pressed" bearing is loose. Its a brand new bearing, but I can slide it in and out with my fingers. Not good right? Looks to me like seating the bearing with a press is what keeps that tiny gap between the frame and triangle. Am I screwed here, or are there tricks I don't know? Thx!!

 

[m.m.w.]

I had both problems myself.

For the lower link look here http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3182637&postcount=1899

The upper bearings I mounted with Loctite [...]

Edit: ... and don't mention which one

 

[boozy1976]

upper bearings:
make sure taht you loctite your bearing in the position that it is now.
otherwise you have loads of stress sideways on that bearing and the others connected to the tri/link. my rear triangle and the right tri/link grind slightly on eachother and the bearing has moved out a bit of it's seating, but is still tight.

 

[m.m.w.]

my rear triangle and the right tri/link grind slightly on eachother and the bearing has moved a bit out of it's seating, but is still tight.

Only the grinding prevents it from moving further... No good status.
I think my problem started when the sheet metal for mud guard mounting was bent a little bit. This made the upper ends of the triangle move towards each other and the bearings sliding.

 

[Udi]

Not to be an ass, but I'd really like to reiterate that loctite thread-lock is NOT the same as bearing retainer. The thread locking products come in various strengths (eg. 242, 262) but that has no relation whatsoever to retaining compounds. The higher strength thread lockers are for larger thread diameters or fasteners more prone to loosening.

The retaining compounds on the other hand, are designed to actually bear load, and each product will have a strength/load-rating, as well as a maximum gap fill specification.

Basically, if you are retaining a bearing or shaft anywhere, you *should* be using loctite 609 / 641 retaining compound, NOT thread-locker. It might work in the short term but I think it's wrong to recommend it.

 

[Udi]

Thanks for your help guys.

I have to confess I don't know the difference between MX tune and the normal tune. Does anyone care to explain it to me? I guess I could just ask Dirtworks myself...

Udi, do you know much about Tekin? How would you compare that to PUSH?

Tekin just provides a re-valve to suit your preferences (different shim configuration) to my knowledge, along with a rebuild. This is different to PUSH who install a few custom components as well as tuning to your liking. Personally I can do what Tekin do myself, so there's no huge benefit (to me at least), on the other hand, the PUSH tune is ultra pricey here - and if their normal tune's price is anything to go by, the MX (if every released) could be quite ridiculous. Wait and see I guess.

In any case, decide what you actually dislike about your current shock first - so you can then decide which solution will address the complaints you have. If it ain't broke...

The MX tune gives you a re shim and adds in hi and low speed compression adjustment. Once you get that bad boy dialed you won't know your self. A great way to turn an average shock into a good performing versatile one.

http://www.littermag.com/2009/first-look-push-factory-mx-tune-for-fox-dhx-shocks/

Again )), not to be an ass, but I think it's wrong to recommend a product that you haven't tried yourself, and one that hasn't even been released to boot. The main reason I say this is because PUSH has a track record of releasing vapourware (boxxer damper, vivid damper, and now the MX tune?), and I also noticed a comment on that linked page from a user that suggested the original PUSH Race tune was quite disappointing (leaked everywhere, was not fixed, and he ended up having to sell his shock at a loss). The MX tune has interestingly being pulled from the site, is overdue, and while PUSH has given some reasoning for it - I think it's a bit shaky.

Personally I would have loved to have tried it, but I wouldn't say it's great until I had.

 

[Udi]

And...my upper left pivot(link/tri) is allowing link and triangle to "grind" into eachother. The "pressed" bearing is loose. Its a brand new bearing, but I can slide it in and out with my fingers. Not good right?

Please read back over the last few pages, your problems were covered in great detail had you bothered to read.

For the upper link bearing fit, you should clean the bearing and seat surfaces with methylated spirits (or similar) and re-fit the bearing with plenty of loctite 609 retaining compound between bearing and seat. Do it on both sides, and re-assemble the rearend of the bike. Leave to set for 48 hours (no less). If you did it properly, your problem will be gone.

For the lower link, please read my post that m.m.w linked to above. In fact, after reading my post, I realise I actually covered BOTH of your issues already.

Keep in mind that the cure time is critical, don't touch your bike or compress the suspension for 48 hours after re-assembly, and try to reassemble everything fairly quickly.

 

[Sandwich]

Not to be an ass, but I'd really like to reiterate that loctite thread-lock is NOT the same as bearing retainer. The thread locking products come in various strengths (eg. 242, 262) but that has no relation whatsoever to retaining compounds. The higher strength thread lockers are for larger thread diameters or fasteners more prone to loosening.

There are a LOT of different Loc-tite varieties. Use the right tool for the job. I've used light-hardened adhesives in the past...also made by loctite....completely different from loc-tite thread locker (blue flavor, red, etc.).

 

[OB1]

The shop already doid the loctite thing. But I highly doubt they followed the steps listed here, nor the correct loctite products. I'm excited to get this done now. Mucho gracias!!

 

[Iceman]

What's the thread dimension on the hexheaded pivots?

 

[davep]

What's the thread dimension on the hex-headed pivots?

Like most questions asked lately, this has already been answered or addressed, maybe many times...






Check page one for the exploded diagram. All bolt and hardware specs are there.

 

[FelixDH]

Is it possible to replace a fox dhx 5.0 with a vivid 5.1 in a sunday factory dh of 2008?

 

[Iceman]

Like most questions asked lately, this has already been answered or addressed, maybe many times...






Check page one for the exploded diagram. All bolt and hardware specs are there.

Unfortunately, I can't find any information after checking the 137 pages of this thread. Maybe I missed it, probably, since you tell me that it should be there. Raingauge asked the same question on page 126. He didn't get an answer though...

The explored diagram on page on doesn't give me the dimensions either. I figure the thread is an M17 since the diameter I have been given for that surface is 17mm. Although I can't tell if it's a M17x1,0 or a M17x1,5 mm thread. No, I don't have the pivots OR lower link to measure it - that's the problem.

 

[Raingauge]

Unfortunately, I can't find any information after checking the 137 pages of this thread. Maybe I missed it, probably, since you tell me that it should be there. Raingauge asked the same question on page 126. He didn't get an answer though...

The explored diagram on page on doesn't give me the dimensions either. I figure the thread is an M17 since the diameter I have been given for that surface is 17mm. Although I can't tell if it's a M17x1,0 or a M17x1,5 mm thread. No, I don't have the pivots OR lower link to measure it - that's the problem.

If you find this out let me know I have all the drawings complete except for the hex nut. I took my bike apart brand new and measured all the parts. If you find out the size of the thread let me know and I'll post PDF's of the drawings.

 

[brownie1664]

just wondered if anyone could shed some light on tuning the DHX3 coil shock. don't seem to be able to get a clear definition on how changing the air pressure will effect the feel of the shock. i weight about 180lb, and at the moment i'm running a 300lb spring. Seems good to me but i'm no pro so need abit more understanding. Pre-load and sag seem good so any suggestions on a starting point with air pressure and rebound.