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The day has just begun - and problems already arise

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
Linky

Some of my coworkers reported that their IDs were not checked when they voted early....

As voting begins, first reports of technical troubles, late openings

By Anick Jesdanun
The Associated Press

Polling places experienced scattered problems early today as legions of lawyers, election-rights activists and computer scientists watched, particularly in battleground states, for any trouble that could disenfranchise voters.

New rules, new voters and a tight presidential contest combined to create "a recipe for problems," said Sean Greene, who was assigned to watch Cleveland polls for the Election Reform Information Project, a nonpartisan research group on election reform.

Nearly one in three voters, including about half of those in Florida, were expected to cast ballots using ATM-style voting machines that computer scientists have criticized for their potential for software glitches, hacking and malfunctioning.

Other major concerns were over provisional ballots, new this presidential election and a potential source of delayed counts, and whether poll workers were adequate and sufficiently trained.

Long lines greeted voters in many big cities in closely contested states: Fort Lauderdale, Fla., Columbus, Ohio, Detriot and elsewhere. Five locations in Franklin County, Ohio, opened up to a half-hour late because poll workers did not show up on time.

In Essex, Md., an election judge left a polling place briefly, saying he forgot something at home. Voters who had to wait were allowed to vote by provisional ballot.

One polling location in Mauldin, S.C., was forced to switch to paper ballots because of equipment troubles.

In Volusia County, Fla., a memory card in an optical-scan voting machine failed Monday at an early voting site and didn't count 13,000 ballots. Officials planned to feed and count those ballots today.

Chellie Pingree, president of the citizens lobbying group Common Cause, said she feared poll workers faced with long lines would be pressured to make quick but bad interpretations on rules governing registration validity and identification requirements.

"There's no question it's going to be a high turnout," Pingree said. "It's going to just add more confusion to already overburdened, understaffed polling places, many of which will have as many lawyers and poll challengers as they have people voting."

By mid-morning EST, an online and phone hotline maintained by nonpartisan and liberal voting-rights activists logged more than 1,650 items, mostly related to complaints or questions about registrations and polling locations. But some voters in New York and Pennsylvania complained to the hotline of troubles with non-electronic machines.

During the March primaries in California and Maryland, software bugs and inexperienced poll workers accidentally eliminated some races and allowed voters to cast ballots for contests in wrong precincts.

VerifiedVoting.org, a group of e-voting critics organized by Stanford University professor David Dill, has recruited more than 1,300 technology professionals to serve as poll monitors today.

Both parties had thousands of lawyers dispatched and on call to respond to the first sign of trouble.

In a decision early today, a federal appeals court cleared the way for political parties to challenge voters' eligibility at polling places throughout Ohio.

A key problem is the lack of a unified voting system for the nation, the legacy of a patchwork of balloting technologies, regulations, partisan bickering and litigation.

Among other problems, Ohio Republicans had sought over the past week to challenge some 35,000 voters, saying mail to them was returned undelivered, while in Colorado, GOP poll watchers complained that election officials in a Democratic stronghold failed to require early voters to produce identification.

A federal law passed in response to the 2000 election mess required states to offer provisional, or backup, ballots to voters who find they are not listed on the rolls, or whose eligibility is somehow in question. The ballots are set aside and evaluated after the election — they could take 10 days or longer to resolve.

But states have interpreted the law differently. Millions of newly registered voters may wrongly assume they can vote at any precinct in their city, town or county. State officials and courts have disagreed on whether provisional ballots are valid when a voter is at the wrong precinct.

The measure also requires first-time voters who registered by mail to provide identification when they show up at the polls, though disputes have arisen over whether to extend that to all first-time registrants and what documents count.

Add to that confusion: absentee ballots.

More than a dozen states missed the recommended deadline to mail ballots overseas, and in Florida's Broward County, thousands of absentee ballots went missing or got delayed.

As for electronic voting, many of the problems — whether accidental or intentional — may not be known until well after today — if at all. Most of the ATM-style machines, including all of Florida's, lack paper records that could be used to verify the electronic results in a recount.

Florida requires state election administrators to count — and, if necessary, recount — an election within 11 days. But lawsuits could drag out the results for weeks, even forcing the courts to decide the outcome.

Four years ago, the Supreme Court intervened in a recount after 36 days, handing George W. Bush a 537-vote victory in Florida and with it the presidency.
 

biggins

Rump Junkie
May 18, 2003
7,173
9
democracy is so cool...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................when the voting system actually works
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,356
2,467
Pōneke
As for electronic voting, many of the problems — whether accidental or intentional — may not be known until well after today — if at all. Most of the ATM-style machines, including all of Florida's, lack paper records that could be used to verify the electronic results in a recount.
Who allowed this utterly obviously idiotic design to be used? Let's take a guess?
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Changleen said:
Who allowed this utterly obviously idiotic design to be used? Let's take a guess?
Hummm I think this started when a bunch of daft octagenarians in FLA couldn't figure out how to use a ballot that they had been using for years.

So this was offered up as a solution to people who couldn't figure out how to poke a hole in a slip of paper.




......and there has yet to be an actual problem with the machines.
The deal in Philly was a matter of the poll observers not understanding the report that came up when they booted the machine.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Saw on the news a fleet of mini vans to haul GOP voters to their voting stations were slashed. Like 20-40 som odd vans with all their tires slashed.....

:rolleyes:

Democracy at work.......

Atleast all the automated phone calls will stop, and the world can kind of get back to "normal" :eek:

:thumb: to everyone that voted (who legally could) today.

Rhino
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,356
2,467
Pōneke
Damn True said:
Hummm I think this started when a bunch of daft octagenarians in FLA couldn't figure out how to use a ballot that they had been using for years.

So this was offered up as a solution to people who couldn't figure out how to poke a hole in a slip of paper.




......and there has yet to be an actual problem with the machines.
The deal in Philly was a matter of the poll observers not understanding the report that came up when they booted the machine.
Yeah, that's cool - But why the lack of a verifiable audit trail? I mean, that is really dumb! It's just asking for problems! What if there is a recount (and I think that there may well have to be given the 50/50 thing) - all those records will have to be taken as gospel, voiding the 'recount'. It's just dumb in so many ways. What if there is a power outage? What if someone complains that someone voted both electronically and physically in another district? Ther'd be no way to verify it whatsoever. With my tinfoil hat on, it seems to be made in way that makes fraud easier.

Say you were drawing up a list of specifications for a voting system, wouldn't "I need to be able to review and verify the votes cast at a later date" be pretty much near the top of your list? It's been near the top of every other voting systems list in every country that votes for like, ever! This is, in fact, the first 'democratic voting system' in history not to maintain a verifiable audit trail. It's so open for abuse it's not funny.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Changleen said:
Yeah, that's cool - But why the lack of a verifiable audit trail? I mean, that is really dumb! It's just asking for problems! What if there is a recount (and I think that there may well have to be given the 50/50 thing) - all those records will have to be taken as gospel, voiding the 'recount'. It's just dumb in so many ways. What if there is a power outage? What if someone complains that someone voted both electronically and physically in another district? Ther'd be no way to verify it whatsoever. With my tinfoil hat on, it seems to be made in way that makes fraud easier.

Say you were drawing up a list of specifications for a voting system, wouldn't "I need to be able to review and verify the votes cast at a later date" be pretty much near the top of your list? It's been near the top of every other voting systems list in every country that votes for like, ever! This is, in fact, the first 'democratic voting system' in history not to maintain a verifiable audit trail. It's so open for abuse it's not funny.
It's by no means perfect but it does have it's advantages.
No dangling chads.
If someone votes electronicly the system automaticly locks in that vote and prevents the person from voting again. With a paper ballot if you could get a pollster to give you a ballot you could fill it out, not to mention absentee ballots.
The system is supposed to dump the vote if it finds a previous absentee ballot from a voter.
The systems are self contained battery operated. Power outage is not a problem.
The systems are not hooked up to the internet so hacking the individual voting machines is not a risk. The master computer I suppose is a risk....but so is the computer at the National Reserve Bank and nobody has hacked that.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
bomberz1qr20 said:
How f*cked up is it that the company that makes the machines (and who is raking in $$) is hardcore Republican?

Like I said, paper ballots rock.
Would you be ok with it if the guy was a democrat?

Seriously, the guy that owns the place is probably going to have some political affiliation.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,356
2,467
Pōneke
Damn True said:
It's by no means perfect but it does have it's advantages.
No dangling chads.
If someone votes electronicly the system automaticly locks in that vote and prevents the person from voting again. With a paper ballot if you could get a pollster to give you a ballot you could fill it out, not to mention absentee ballots.
The system is supposed to dump the vote if it finds a previous absentee ballot from a voter.
The systems are self contained battery operated. Power outage is not a problem.
The systems are not hooked up to the internet so hacking the individual voting machines is not a risk. The master computer I suppose is a risk....but so is the computer at the National Reserve Bank and nobody has hacked that.
All those are good design features,and I'm not too worried about hacking. I am very worried about the complete lack of a verfifiable audit trail. Seriously. All the machine has to do to completly undermine democracy is to count the number of people who 'vote' on it, and then return a pre-programmed result to the machine higher up the chain and no-one would be any the wiser. Please tell me it ain't so, but everything I've read seems to point to this or a similar route being availible to the manufacturers if they were so inclined. At the end of the day, you or I, having voted on one of these machines COULD NOT go back and say "I voted for XX, and XX, can you confirm that's what you recorded?" Because they would not be able to confirm that. The machine could cast your vote however it was programmed - and a clever programmer could easily match trends to a certain point and deviate a small amount in a desired direction.
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
Damn True said:
Yes, I s'pose if I tilt my tin-foil hat just right I can see a potential for that happening. However.....the same can be said about ATM machines and nobody seems to be able to do that.
Actually True, there you're wrong - you can go back to your bank at a later date and say "I withdrew XXX on this date, and I deposited X on this date - can you verify that?". If your bank can't verify what you do, then you better be changing banks right quick like.

It's not a question of who wants who to win, as Changleen said, the machines could easily just pop out a pre-programmed number of R vs. D vs. I at the end of the day, regardless of who voted for what, or how many voters visited that machine. If the voters thought it seemed odd and said - gosh - I voted for X - can you print me out a receipt or something? It can't do that....so thus the system is kinda fishy.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
bomberz1qr20 said:
Hmm...

My ATM machine spits out a paper receipt, and it warns me if it can't before I use it.

The voting machines don't do that.
Valid point.
So are we just going to assume that there is some nefarious goings on with voting machines if the election dosen't turn out your way?
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,356
2,467
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Damn True said:
Valid point.
So are we just going to assume that there is some nefarious goings on with voting machines if the election dosen't turn out your way?
That's the problem. It's already an issue. Mr. DieBold saying 'I'm a republican', no accountability, and yes, if it goes the 'wrong' way, of course people are now in a great position to cry foul. The winners will call them conspiricy theorists, the losers will be justifiably pissed off - and the real sh1t at the end of it is that no-one will ever actually know the truth. Just like 9/11 :D (Sorry had to get that in there) If they could have made a sensible machine in the first place.....

Basically this is practically asking for a legal wrangle over the results. Maybe that was the point of it? After all when this was introduced Bush was on a bit of low in the polls - maybe this is his guarantee that it at least goes to the supreme court no matter what the result?
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,405
7,792
Damn True said:
Valid point.
So are we just going to assume that there is some nefarious goings on with voting machines if the election dosen't turn out your way?
there have been plenty of strange things noticed about diebold, apart from the well publicized ohio/deliver to republicans comment by the ceo.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00078.htm for instance. google for "diebold black box voting" for more.