[crashing_sux]

Ok, just to get this out of the way, I bought Hopes.

Here's my problem, I love the feel but they just don't have enough power. I know it's not just me either, every friend who rides my bike (and that's a lot of people, everyone wants to throw a leg over the Nucleon) says the same thing, your brakes suck. I've tried both stock and EBC green pads. Again, the feel and modulation are great but the power just isn't there. This might be more noticable for me as I need more power to slow me down than smaller guys (I'm about 240lbs) but if I can't find a way to get these things to stop me soon I'm going to have to ditch them.

I've cleaned the rotors, installed new pads, and bled the brakes multiple times. It doesn't actually feel like there is a problem with them, it just feels like they are weak. I do notice though that the rear fades, or at least I think it's fading. It's weird, I know if there is air in the lines the lever can pump up but mine does the opposite on long runs, it pumps down, or the lever gets closer to the bar as the brake heats up which makes no sense. Maybe it's just getting weaker so I'm pulling it closer to the bar.

Either way, these brakes are really pissing me off. Do the EBC red pads make a noticable difference? If not where do I go from here? Juicys? Gustavs? Shimanos? I have a set of Hayes on my other bike and while I do like the power of them (much better than the Hopes) I hate the feel, they don't modulate nearly as well and now that I've ridden both I'm stuck being a super picky consumer who wants the modulation of the Hopes AND the power of the Hayes.

 

[Jm_]

That's strange. I know that Zonic Man it california had problems with his hope minis. He claimed up and down that they were set up by the "best mechanic" this side of the mississippi, but I tried them and I immediatly knew there was something wrong with them.

They were "weak". They felt crisp enough, and there didn't seem to be any other problem, but they were just way weak, like when you spill some oil on the rotors, but these things just were not stopping like they should. At the same time I had hopes and I'd tried other disc brakes and I knew what a brake should feel like. Regardless of the model of disc brake, they should act a certain way and feel a certain way.

I don't know what your problem is, but I've ran into something similer. Not sure why it happened...

 

[crashing_sux]

Oh yeah, I should probably have mentioned they are M4's. It's BMXMan's old bike and he never mentioned having any problems with them. I'm really starting to think they are just too weak for me but really hoping I am wrong since brakes are so expensive.

 

[valve bouncer]

How long have you had them on for? I assume you're using the 203mm rotor. Sounds weird.....where's Brian when you need him.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Are you sure its blead correctly? If the lever is going to the bar on occasion there is a problem with the bleed. Its possible the brake line is bad, (I'm assuming we're talking about the rear brake here). What size rotor are you using, and if they were BMXman's who knows what he did with them when he had them.

 

[crashing_sux]

I'm using 8" rotors, and only the rear brake lever comes to the bar when it's hot. The front does not, it stays consistent, the problem is it's consistently not powerful enough. I was just trying to do a little front wheel pivot on a trail the other day and found I couldn't even get the front wheel to lockup to pivot on unless I really threw my weight forward and lift on the rear.

 

[DLo]

I know the feeling. Mine are the same way, they just don't feel like they did from when I first got them. I had brian re-bleed mine, and cut off a bit of the line that was kinked. They felt like they had good feel, and the first run (XC) I did, the very first downhill the lever went all the way to the bar all of a sudden. I pushed the screw in, the one inside the lever. Lever felt ok again. Now I can't even skid around, on the street, but I'm not sure if the brake pads just need to be broken in. I am also runnin the smaller rotor in the rear however, but I'm only 150 lbs.

I'm not sure what it is. Seems like many that I've talked to have loved hopes for the first few months or so, and then started to absolutely hate them. Mebbe it is Hope's marketing work or somethin, they make em so you have to buy new ones after a period so they make more monies

Btw, my front has been good to me so far *knock on wood* I can still squeeze it with one finger and be thrown over the bars easily.

 

[crashing_sux]

Mine have never had great power, they are used so it's possible there is something wrong with them but it seems unlikely as the feel (especially of the front brake) is just about the same as the Shimano XT brakes.

Anyone tried the EBC Red pads? I'd be willing to pay for them even knowing they wear out pretty quickly if they really do make a major difference but if not I'd just save my money for different brakes, although I have no idea yet what brakes I would get.

 

[Jm_]

something is not right.

When they heat up, most brakes, even all of the open-system ones, will have the opposite thing happen, the engagement point will NEVER get closer to the bar. This holds true for my hayes or my hopes when I heat them up to a bazillion degrees on a long extended downhill.

Air in the lines is about the only thing that is going to cause this.

 

[DLo]

Air in the lines? I don't think that's possible.. unless Brian missed somethin while he was bleeding mine.

There is one thing you can do, crashing_sux. Send it back to Hope in CA. Last summer I did it before big bear, told them I had a problem with my rear, and I tried to bleed it a couple times without any success. The guy I spoke to told me to send it there, and they took care of it for free - even sent it back for me and threw in a poster of Peaty and a bunch of stickers! It kind of appeased me for a while, until now I'm thinkin of sending in my brakes again..

 

[crashing_sux]

As I mentioned before, I agree heat should only make the lever pump up, not get closer to the bar. It could be that the brake is fading and I'm pulling the lever harder to get the same power out of it, making it get closer to the bar.

That's only the rear though, the front doesn't suffer that problem and still feels weak. If I can't resolve the lack of power in both brakes then there really isn't any reason for me to waste the time sending a brake off to Hope and being without a rear brake for a couple of weeks. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see how a rebuild would give the brakes any more power.

 

[crashing_sux]

Also, I ride almost every day so being without my bike for any length of time is not something I am willing to do. You really have to think ahead owning Hopes with their complete lack of support by shops. Even in Whistler where we have a ton of DH riders you would think I would be able to find a set of pads but after visiting all of the local shops I found nobody had any in stock so I had to order a set. I'm trying to decide what pads to get as I'll have to have some ordered up tomorrow.

 

[red223]

i have mono 6-ti's and they stop me extremely well but im only 185ish pounds.

a question for all hope users:

are the levers supposed to have a squishy feel opposed to the rock solid feel or hayes?

 

[wysiwyg]

mine are crap too, im gonna try new pads

 

[def]

I had a problem with the original mini's and ebc green pads about a year ago. After several bleeds, both the guys at hope and the distributer (BTI) said it was probably a bad run in the pads. The stock hopes were worn to nothing so I threw some galfers in there and that pretty much fixed the problem. They're still not as strong as before, but I think the rotors are pretty dirty and almost three years old. I also set the lever a little further out because it was creeping in on longer decents - this honestly stopped it (or did so in my mind). Of course, this is all on my xc bike, not enough money to put hopes on the big one.

-peace

oh yeah, I've had good luck with ebc reds in my old dh04's

 

[Incubus]

Don't even bother with the pads. If the EBC green pads perform that bad, it's not a pad issue. It could however, be a line issue. If you're going to give one last effort to fix them, why not pick up a Goodridge line instead.

I've been in the market for new brakes for a while now to replace the tired Hayes on my bike (older G1 caliper, need new lines and pads). As much as I wanted the bling-bling of the new hopes (hot d@mn are they sexy), I couldn't get over how incredibly sensitive their performance seems to be related to their need to be set-up absolutely perfectly. Not to mention my hatred towards I.S. mounting. That said, I just rolled the dice and ordered a 203mm set of juicy 7s for $159 an end

 

[MikeD]

It could possibly be an issue with setup; maybe they're not quite spaced right or the tabs need facing...? Hopes are sensitive to that. Just an idea since people are running out of them.

 

[Leethal]

The seals may need replaced... I weight the same and ride a 50 lb v10 and have to much power at the brakes and have been considering switching my 8 rear rotor for the 6 inch one to stop locking up so easily.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Something is just not right with them, and Dlo you need to ride some DH with them to brake them in, short XC rides will take them forever to break in properly. 1 run down Karpiel will have them broken in quick. As far as reds go they wear out very quick and its not going to solve the problem. Something is messed up with the brakes period, if they are not working right. And I don't think its your weight is the problem, they stop Yeti DHer no problem and I bet he has a few pounds more on you.

 

[MikeD]

Those are Donnie's brakes. They are well broken-in, I'm positive of that...

 

[DLo]

That's only the rear though, the front doesn't suffer that problem and still feels weak. If I can't resolve the lack of power in both brakes then there really isn't any reason for me to waste the time sending a brake off to Hope and being without a rear brake for a couple of weeks. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see how a rebuild would give the brakes any more power.

I explained to those guys that I had to leave for BB within a week. I did 2 day shipping, and they got it, did it within a day, and sent it right back out. I made the trip. I guess it's worth a shot if you really want to keep them. I agree though, I need a backup set of brakes or somethin

Btw, Brian - yes, I know about the breakin period That's why I haven't done anything else yet, I'm going to see if I can hit up santa cruz this weekend and then see what happens after that. If they still aren't locking up, then I think I've really got a problem. What I didn't get though, is why the lever sometimes activates at different points..

 

[groovis]

When they heat up, most brakes, even all of the open-system ones, will have the opposite thing happen, the engagement point will NEVER get closer to the bar. This holds true for my hayes or my hopes when I heat them up to a bazillion degrees on a long extended downhill.

I've had the lever drop all the way to the bars on my Hayes after half a day of long DH runs. It seems to happen when they get too hot and the fluid leaks out the hole on top of the lever.

As for the Hopes weakness problem, check to see if your loosing fluid and inspect the lines for kinks. Also since the brakes are used, have you sanded the cruft off the rotors and then cleaned them with alcohol? I used to have to clean the rotors on my Hayes every few months or they would suck.

 

[Kornphlake]

buy avid mechanicals :devil:













sorry I couldn't resist after changing my signature it needs to be said occasionally.

 

[Spitfired]

What do you guys concider a kink in the line?
I bought a mini for the back and an M4 for the front this winter. The front line is a bit short and so it's pulled at a pretty tight angle right off of the lever. There's a little bulge on the outside of the line, a fold of the black plastic. I think the rear suffers somthing similar. Is this an issue that's going to rob me of power? I bought them used and havn't done any maintenence because I've been waiting to finnish my frame before I get the lines cut and stuff. Despite the poor shape they're in, I'd say they stop pretty well. Just as good as my avid mechs did, at least.

 

[Zark]

Have you considered modulation is overated in the bigger picture of reliability and power. I just don't get why ya'll put up with these finicky brakes, thats all.

It could be the pads, lines, old fluid, air in the line, british gremlins, etc. Give up!

 

[crashing_sux]

I'm just about to give up on them but I decided that before I do I'll try re-bleeding the rear (Hope said that air in the lines can cause the lever to creep towards the bar with heat) and put a Mono 6 Ti on the front.

I'm getting a good enough price on the Mono 6 that if it doesn't do the trick for me I can sell it and not lose any money.

I'll have the Mono 6 in a week and let you guys know if it does the trick or not.

Have you considered modulation is overated in the bigger picture of reliability and power. I just don't get why ya'll put up with these finicky brakes, thats all.

It could be the pads, lines, old fluid, air in the line, british gremlins, etc. Give up!

 

[JoeRay]

Things I hae learnt with my Enduros 185mm

Tried most common variants of pads, best results with EBC reds both squeal and bite wise.

EBC Greens - didint like I always seem to get those ones from the 'dud' batch. Even when I buy them in different countries.

EBC Golds - good bite but noisy as all hell

Original Hope - good bite noisy though

Fibrax standard - nasty nasty wore out too quick faded on repeated high speed stops

Fibrax Metal Sintered - last long time bite ok way too noisy.

Bleed them the way Hope tells you, yes I know its a hassle and its easy if you have a friend help but. Use 5.1 not 4 it has better heat dissipating properties.

The lever usually goes real stiff after a bleed and you get very direct engagement, then goes a bit doughy after a few rides, remove cap and top up. Will go stiff again then settle down.

Hopes any day lot less fuss than the shimano 4 pots on my XC bike.

 

[SprungShoulders]

I was talking to a guy last race and he has the EXACT same problem with his M4's: the rear level creeps towards the bar when they heat up. The longer the DH run and the hotter the brakes got, the more the lever moved in. He had Hope "power-bleed" them several times, and they still do the same thing. He's was about ready to send them back and request a replacement.

I, on the other hand, have had no problems with my M4's (old ones, not the mono's), with the exception of a crash popping one of the lever piston thingies out of the ball-and-socket interface (I'm talking about the piston that goes from the lever into the lever body and compresses the mastger cylinder). Ever since it popped out it's kinda loose, and dirt jumping - especially - sometimes causes the lever blade to become somewhat stuck as the ball-end of the piston partially comes out of the socket. It's annoying, but... If anyone knows how to remedy that situation, I'd be grateful; I've tried, and nothing seems to work.

Good luck with your problem. I love Hope's...when they work right...

 

[MikeD]

If anyone knows how to remedy that situation, I'd be grateful; I've tried, and nothing seems to work.

You need a new brass washer from Hope. I think it costs $.30 or so. It's designed as a disposible break-away part.

Take out the lever pivot bolt and unscrew the lever from the threaded rod. Then take off the dust boot and remove the c-clip that holds the brass washer in place. (the washer retains the ball-end of the threaded adjuster rod inside the lever.) Remove old washer, install new one around the rod with the beveled edge of the hole facing the inside of the lever. Reinstall c-clip and boot; thread lever back on and re-install pivot bolt.

The tricky thing is getting the c-clip off. If you have good snap-ring pliers, it's simple. Tiny needlenose work, but pretty poorly. The big cheap adjustable point type snap-ring pliers that you get at Autozone are no good at all.

Make SURE hope sends you the right washer for your type of lever. (pro or mini.)

MD

 

[JoeRay]

Quick thought, how fresh is the fluid you use when rebleeding? Being that DOT 4 and 5.1 are hydrophillic ie absorb water well. If you buy a bottle and crack the seal on it even if you do the cap up real tight water still gets into it.

Read the fine print on the bottle they usually say chuck out after x weeks or so.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

I explained to those guys that I had to leave for BB within a week. I did 2 day shipping, and they got it, did it within a day, and sent it right back out. I made the trip. I guess it's worth a shot if you really want to keep them. I agree though, I need a backup set of brakes or somethin

Btw, Brian - yes, I know about the breakin period That's why I haven't done anything else yet, I'm going to see if I can hit up santa cruz this weekend and then see what happens after that. If they still aren't locking up, then I think I've really got a problem. What I didn't get though, is why the lever sometimes activates at different points..

N* Darren, you need a few big hills to break them in.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Also remember when bleeding the brakes, remove the pads and push the pistons all the way in. Then wedge something in there to prevent the pistons from moving while bleeding. A lot of people forget to do that and they end up with a sh*ty feeling brake.

 

[crashing_sux]

Thanks for the bleed tip. I had a shop bleed them last time but I'll go buy a new bottle of fluid and do it myself this time. While I'm at it I'll throw the rotor in the dishwasher and install a new set of pads. If that doesn't do the trick on the rear I'll just sell them and move on.

 

[partsbara]

sounds to me like a contaminated rotor and/or pads.... you could always sell em to me cheap

joe ray... good to see ya around foo

partsbara (bat fastard - 220lb)- front dh04 (5 years old), rear enduro 4 (3.5 years old) - still goin strong

 

[James | Go-Ride]

It sounds to me like you've got air in your rear line still. I don't know if you're bleeding by hand or not, if you are you should check into the Hope bleed kit. It is pressurized by air in your tire (or your compressor if you can dial in the outgoing pressure to about 35 psi) and bleeds the brakes out quickly and efficiently. You may want to try bleeding the brakes with the caliper at a few different angles, and tapping lightly on the caliper and line (start from the caliper, then tap slowly all the way up to the lever) to get some bubbles to come loose.

As far as power goes, going to the red EBC pads will make a HUGE difference. There is almost no modulation with these pads in my Hayes brakes and i'm 195. They do wear very fast, I usually run a red pad in one side and a stock pad in the other to get some life (and modulation) out of the pads and brakes. I don't know if this information has been posted already, I only read the first page of this thread, so sorry if I'm double-posting.

 

[The Mad Haderer]

EBC RED pads with a strong pressure bleed make the m4s an almost scary powerful brake...one finger feathering can lock the wheel at any speed. its fockin awesome.

the ebc green pads make the brake feel weak and almost dead at most points....stick with the stock pads or ebc reds and get someone to PRESSURE bleed them correctly. you will then have a scary powerful brake.

 

[dante]

BUY HAYES

 

[sikocycles]

Put them in a box and post on ebay and with the money buy hayes

 

[p-spec]

Well if there new they need to be broken in.If there old check all the fittings and the housing for a leak.Check the seals and o-rings.

Re bleed them as well if there old.Check if you pads have less pad then a 10 cent coin.
Also like MikeD checl the spacing.

check all those things.

 

[crashing_sux]

I've checked the spacing, there are no leaks, and I've put in many runs in the bike park so they are well broken in.