Roasted said:
But illegal trails do exist. Maybe not illegal, but not marked.
I was shown a new trail by a certain whistler employee who was definitly "in the know"
No more Big Bear
- Thread starter Romic tech
- Start date
But illegal trails do exist. Maybe not illegal, but not marked.
I was shown a new trail by a certain whistler employee who was definitly "in the know"
Well...they might let me up... but only cuz my bike says "F R E E R I D E R" all over it. Regarless of which bike I ride... I'll get on cuz I'm hangin' with the ultimate freerider extraordiaire---- Rabie! Do you want to be the one that tells him NO? He'll frankenbike your rig in a second.MikeD said:
Whistler, Whistler, Blah, blah, blah.....
Yeah I know the trails (well a few). But most 'will be'...Whistler builds, generally, the middle section first so they are hidden. People in the know take people on those trails at times, up top (beyond garb) there is lots of stuff going on most people don't see. Especially on the other sidebuildyourown said:
I just mean I doubt any trails are being built without the proper people knowing and either kind of approving or approving. But of all the people I know come to whistler, you are literally the first outsider I know of who knows these trails (beyond the one that was purposefully released in the fall and everyone was suddenly 'in the know')
Since we're on the 7th topic in this thread. First of all the cost of drugs are not so high cause there are drugs or ED, lobbying, and advertisement. There is no drug company in the world spending 20% of a drugs income on advertising. I doubt there is any company spending that much of an income on marketing. Drugs are expensive because they are expensive to make on average 1/2 BILLION yes that is with a B and 10 year to get to market. For ever drug like Viagra, or Prozac that makes Billions there are drugs that don't even come close to making the investment back, It does matter if your making a drug that's going to sell millions of prescrips a year or one that's going to have a thousand your R&D costs are the same, your headache from the government is the same, your going to get sued cause someone somewhere is sure you drug did something to them. Then you going to have to spend millions defending your patents against other people who want a peice of the pie. It is not a cheap business to run by any strech of the imagination.buildyourown said:
Why are drugs cheaper in Canada? The governement makes them give them a discount. SO why don't we do that here? Cause then you'd have to sell it cheaper there which means you'd have to give it cheaper here....next thing you know...it's free.
Every drug company has a free drug card for elderely people...most don't want to go through the trouble of getting it.
This all relates back to the sueing when you get hurt. People feel they are entitled to things, they are entitled to sue cause it's not THEIR fault. They're entitled to free/cheap drugs.
Ok, off the soap box..........
buildyourown said:
It is good to see we agree on something.-bb- said:
Exactly!buildyourown said:
There's only one reason why people are breaking the law because they can... it's fun/exciting. At least these jackasses should have enough balls to admit it and not use some BS excuse as a scapegoat.
Maybe not of a single drug, but when you look at total income...Zutroy said:
I have worked in medical devices for over 10 years, most of those with one of the giants of the industry - I can assure you that they do based on total income. 30 seconds on google backs me up too... http://www.familiesusa.org/site/DocServer/PPreport.pdf?docID=249
But that is besides the point, and I hardly think that this can be blamed on drug companies, which are typically part of a larger medical company.
I'm not sur eit is the same with drugs, but with medical devices the prices for the products are typically set by researching how much the insurance companies will re-emberse for it. So regardless of how much it cost me to make it, I can only charge a certain amount before the insurance will not re-emberse for it.
But why shouldn't I make a device for $35 and charge $600 for it? Why can't my company maximize its profits? It's just like any other industry - we are here to make a profit. If people didn't pay for it or some other company undercut us - we'd lose money and have to change. Its called capitalism the American way.
LOL - I had already begun my plans for hitting Diablo and Platty this springLexx D said:
to complicate the drug issue keep in mind that lots of drug research is done with federal money by university researchers. the university then goes out and licenses the drug to big pharma. who is making the big profits for little expenditure now? 
hotdam! this thread is still dragging!??!?!?!?
Ok, this just pissed me off..
I just realized that BB won't have the 12 hrs of DH anymore!!!
This is prolly the most fun race BB ever put together!
Next court hearing for Brian Spillane vs. Team Big Bear Mountain Bikes Inc, USA Cycling, Inc is on 2/7/2005
This lawsuit is the bastard child of stupidity and unaccountability.
Ok, this just pissed me off..
I just realized that BB won't have the 12 hrs of DH anymore!!!
This is prolly the most fun race BB ever put together!
Next court hearing for Brian Spillane vs. Team Big Bear Mountain Bikes Inc, USA Cycling, Inc is on 2/7/2005
This lawsuit is the bastard child of stupidity and unaccountability.
R
Rabie
Guest
You're just irritated cause you ride a tank. If it makes you feel better, know that next summer, as it's 100 degrees at the beach and you're pushing your beast up some scar on an east county hillside, I'll be stringing together darkside runs on my 35lb. all-mountain bike. With no lift line.Orven said:
I agree.shhhh said:
Rabie, other than the 35# limit, there's also a rear travel limit= 4" max and must have 3 chainrings and a front der! No full face helmet either! I think the rental bikes weigh about 40lbs..
salut,
@orven: i can sell you my stm fork for cheap, got 3 inches of very plush travel, no oil leaking either cause everything is gone over the years! : )
@big bear closure: just plain sucks, one reason less moving to cali for me...was immer...
Thomas
@orven: i can sell you my stm fork for cheap, got 3 inches of very plush travel, no oil leaking either cause everything is gone over the years! : )
@big bear closure: just plain sucks, one reason less moving to cali for me...was immer...
Thomas
From bikemag.com
Bad News for Big Bear
By Dain Zaffke
Team Big Bear announced today that starting with the 2005 season, Snow Summit Mountain Resort in Big Bear Lake, California, will no longer allow downhill mountain bike racing. The news comes as a particularly harsh blow to Team Big Bear, the organizer of the NORBA Nationals at Snow Summit, as well as the local summer economy of the resort itself. Downhill has been a huge draw to not only the Nationals but also Snow Summit's other events, the Fall Classic and the Amateur Cup Series.
Downhill at Big Bear - will lawsuits make it a thing of the past?
Tom Spiegel, co-owner of Team Big Bear, said Snow Summit decided to pull the plug after an unnamed, injured downhill racer filed a lawsuit. But there's another factor too. "The Forest Service has been on us about eliminating downhill trailsthe current trails, and the illegal ones that keep popping up. We just can't get a handle on it," Spiegel explained.
"We have requirements that bikers and hikers stay on the trail," said the San Bernardino Forest Service's director of public affairs, Ruth Wentserom. "But we weren't part of the decision." she insisted.
Either way, the added erosion of poorly built illegal trails likely played a role, Spiegel said. The brunt of the blame seems to be placed squarely on riders with big, heavy, long-travel downhill bikes. "They will possibly continue to haul bikes up the chairlifts, but with a weight restrictionmaybe around 35-pounds," he said.
"We'll still do the NORBA Nationals at Snow Summit, but it will be cross country and Super D only. And we'll still manage the downhill series around Southern California. Downhill racing is not going to go away. Don Jackson, the Team Southridge director [another Southern California based mountain bike race promoter] is currently talking to the resorts at Mountain High and Waterman. He's done some racing there before with limited success," Spiegel said.
For now, Spiegel is urging downhillers not to go trade in their bikes; the sport isn't doomed, he said. "We're looking for other venues, even shuttling [by truck] venues, but in the mean time, we'll still survive with cross-country racing and Super D. We're still racing," he added.
_____
Bad News for Big Bear
By Dain Zaffke
Team Big Bear announced today that starting with the 2005 season, Snow Summit Mountain Resort in Big Bear Lake, California, will no longer allow downhill mountain bike racing. The news comes as a particularly harsh blow to Team Big Bear, the organizer of the NORBA Nationals at Snow Summit, as well as the local summer economy of the resort itself. Downhill has been a huge draw to not only the Nationals but also Snow Summit's other events, the Fall Classic and the Amateur Cup Series.
Downhill at Big Bear - will lawsuits make it a thing of the past?
Tom Spiegel, co-owner of Team Big Bear, said Snow Summit decided to pull the plug after an unnamed, injured downhill racer filed a lawsuit. But there's another factor too. "The Forest Service has been on us about eliminating downhill trailsthe current trails, and the illegal ones that keep popping up. We just can't get a handle on it," Spiegel explained.
"We have requirements that bikers and hikers stay on the trail," said the San Bernardino Forest Service's director of public affairs, Ruth Wentserom. "But we weren't part of the decision." she insisted.
Either way, the added erosion of poorly built illegal trails likely played a role, Spiegel said. The brunt of the blame seems to be placed squarely on riders with big, heavy, long-travel downhill bikes. "They will possibly continue to haul bikes up the chairlifts, but with a weight restrictionmaybe around 35-pounds," he said.
"We'll still do the NORBA Nationals at Snow Summit, but it will be cross country and Super D only. And we'll still manage the downhill series around Southern California. Downhill racing is not going to go away. Don Jackson, the Team Southridge director [another Southern California based mountain bike race promoter] is currently talking to the resorts at Mountain High and Waterman. He's done some racing there before with limited success," Spiegel said.
For now, Spiegel is urging downhillers not to go trade in their bikes; the sport isn't doomed, he said. "We're looking for other venues, even shuttling [by truck] venues, but in the mean time, we'll still survive with cross-country racing and Super D. We're still racing," he added.
_____
From what I've heard through the grapevine, they have been wanting to close it down for a while to DHers, mainly because of the illegally built trails (that started the ball rolling) The lawsuit is the icing on the cake.
Brian HCM#1 said:
Thats why i think lightweight DH bikes are NOT gonna be allowed still.
They want to remove the DH element altogether.
Shoot...........
Anyway, as far as other venues, can somebody chime in the deal about Mountain High(MH)?
Its been brought up but i never rode that place before.
(location, terrain,existing trail etc)
Does this just reek of discrimination or what?!
"Oh you can't ride here cause your bike is too big"
"Keeping the DH element out"
This is starting to sound like racism or homophobia, but in the bike world. WTF is happening here?!
"Oh you can't ride here cause your bike is too big"
"Keeping the DH element out"
This is starting to sound like racism or homophobia, but in the bike world. WTF is happening here?!
Orven said:hotdam! this thread is still dragging!??!?!?!?
Ok, this just pissed me off..
I just realized that BB won't have the 12 hrs of DH anymore!!!
QUOTE]
Yeah, we were thinking of trying to make it down for that this year too
Hey, how bout you and Shrymp come on up here and we'll head to Whistler for an extended weekend instead
IMO... there is no point to having a Race series if you can't even have a place to RIDE.Stiff said:
There are TONS of people that ride DH but don't like to race.
Velocity Girl said:Oh, well why didn't you just say so in the first place
Just irks me (as I'm sure it does most) that "we" , employers, employees, etc., pay out so much for heatlh insurance and then you have to fight tooth and nail with them to actually pay out when you need it!
Thats because in order for an insurance company to remain profitable they must collect as much in premiums as possible and pay out as little in settlements as possible.
Biddness.
Sucks, but that's the way it works.
I've often thought that the best way to get rich in this country would be to start an insurance company.
Here's an idea though. What is there was a not-for-profit corporation that provided insurance....how would that work?
shhhh said:
Get your head out of your Arse.
Yes, there may be better ways to mark a course, but this way is fairly standard. No one FORCED the dude to race there.
The dude got hurt due to RIDER ERROR.
Jackazz...
Yeah and those are accurate numbers they quoted from the companies annual reports, but you see there it that little thing tacked on called Administration, that means making the company go salaries and doing the things you need to do to make a company work, that's the largest component of that piece, if you look at the R&D costs, compare that to what companies like GM and Boeing, and other large corps spend on developing products, they'll pale in compareision. If you look at the profite on drugs, it's no different that making a car, or a plane, or gas for your car, and in many of cases, the profit margin is lower. You wanna get really angry look at where the money from that $2 a gallon gas your buying is going. Like it was pointed out this america and it is about capitalism, if the motive of making a profit wasent' there, there wouldn't be a pharamcutical industry, and also don't forget many of the drug companies are not just American companies, for example most of that hard to get flu vaccine comes from a french company.Slugman said:
As for the government "giving" the pharma companies anything, that's really funny. While there are some molecules, that have come from academia, or NIH which is where most of the government drug reseach is done, developing the compound "drug" is very little of the cost of R&D on a drug, getting it in a form that you can take, figureing out how much to give, and figureing out all the bad things that it could possible do to someone is most of the cost, Human trials and Toxicology/Ethic profile of a compound are the main costs.
Now back to the BB stuff...yeah it sucks, and I'm pissed cause i just moved out here, and was excited to have a mountain so close, after having to drive 8 hours before to get to a decent one, and while BB was not ideal, it was better than nothing, but the key is IF someone else steps up, everyone on here and all the guys you know gotta get behind us, cause like Brian has said, there are alot less of us than most people think, the XC guys out number us, and even the Roadie guys do. Speaking of that I was thinking about this last night. Anyone else ever been involved in Road scene too? I've never been to a crit/or a short road circuit were somone didn't get a backboard ride to the hospital, including myself, but you don't ever here about that being so dangerous. More guys have been killed racing bicycles on the road than have been racing mtn bikes. There is usually at least one death a year at a race, a couple years there have been more. Try and figure that one.
Zutroy said:
Who do you sue if you screw up and crash on the road? The DOT?
Silliness if you ask me.
Granted, there may be better ways to mark a course, but the way BB does it is pretty standard.
I have seen it done where the rebar is only used to make a hole in the ground, then the pvc is stuffed into the hole seems to work well. Ive also seen a small dia piece of PVC put into the ground, then a larger dia piece slipped over it to attach course marking tape.
What Stupidity? Stupidity for marking the course? For putting a jump on a course that has jumps on it?shhhh said:
The guy made a mistake, we all make mistakes. Somtimes those mistakes lead to nothing, sometimes ya get a bruise, or ya break a bone. His LUCK ran out on this one and he hit just right, and he didn't walk away from it, more than likely alittle more one way, he woulda gotten up and dusted himself off, alittle more the other way and that woulda been it. In reality it could have happened to anyone on that course that day, or any of the other days.
THe fact that you didn't have people laying hurt all over the place i think says there wasen't something inhairntly wrong with the course.
Damn True said:
Don't know, but i have been on many crit courses that had the worst corners in the world on them, way to tight, way to rough, and alot of times that leads to the wrecks, but I've never heard anyone sue cause the corner was designed wrong. Hell I've even been piled into one of the metal fences in the side of the course and gotten hurt, maybe i shoulda sued cause it needed to be made outta a Nerf material.
clinical trials cost a ton of $, as does the facility in which you make drugs. it's a well-known fact that A&E firms jack up their costs on a biotech/pharma job, as compared to, say, food or chemical jobs. the per square footage costs of building and maintaining the plants is huge. the job i was working on in ireland is the largest biotech facility in the world, and the price tag is over 9 figures.
i was talking to a woman in research last night and she now estimates that it costs almost a billion dollars to get a drug from discovery to market. now add in all the candidates which die on the vine along the way.
Good point.Zutroy said:
Yep you don't realize how expensive it is till your in it, and how many failures there are on the way. The company i worked for which is on the list of companies everyone knows spent 7.9 million dollars a day doing research.narlus said:
Not entirely true.Zutroy said:
In the same year the Japanese girl was killed on that course and Saboo was partially paralyzed as well. The previous years sport course had a finish line table-top that put no less than seven people (one of whom was a monkey) on backboards.
BB has a history of shady jumps.
But this suit is not about shady jumps. Its about a course marker that allegedly jumped out and grabed him. And somehow that makes it the mountains fault?Damn True said:
Ill totally agree 100% that the jumps on every course Ive ridden at big bear were shady. But shady does not make them a death trap that is liable for a lawsuit. I didnt like jumping them because I knew they were built wrong. But the bottom line is they were do-able. I just had no know my limits in order to stay safe on them. Plenty of people made those jumps and cleaned them fine, in my book that means the jumps were allright to be there. Unfortunately the people that got hurt as far as I know went down due to rider error.
that is also what I've been thinking - actually was telling -BB- just that on the phone this morning.LOOnatic said:
Yeah, if they want to stop DH they will. If the arbitrary weight restrictions don't work, they will impose other restrictions such as maybe speed limits, etc. And if people go out and DH despite the restrictions, they will just ban all bikes. I took some crap for thinking this way in sanjay's thread about him wanting to lighten up his bike, and I agree it's not a rosy outlook but sadly I think it's true.
Damn True said:
Are the jumps shady or are people being stupid? Look at the course at MSA that took out Johnny Wadell, and Bariel....everyone has said there was nothing wrong with the jump, but riders were not using there judgement and hitting it to fast, cause they saw the finish line in site.
April Lawyer broke her Collar bone on a jump on that same day that Haruko Fujinaka the Japanses girl was killed. Why did she crash? Not cause the jump was bad, but because by her own admitance she didn't notice that a rut had started to form as practice went on.
At first I was really pissed about this. However, if this was just a piece of rebar sticking out of the ground with no pole on it, then BB was negligent and should be held liable. People pay, they should be given a safe course. Unreasonable trail hazards should be removed. I mean...should the slow down on blind corners too, in case somebody is there? Somebody can't be expected to see something like that sticking a few inches above the ground while going 30 mph. It is too dulll- it doesn't stand out at all. People also can't be expected to see and be prepared for an essentially invisible, inmoveable object to snag them from nowhere and stop them cold. This isn't like a natural obstacle- it is more like a tripwire. He's lucky he didn't run over it! This thing could've impaled somone too!
Now, if there was a pole on it I won't be quite so symphetic. Still though, I think that is a terribly dangerous way to mount poles. Again, a crashing rider could break the pole and impale themselves, or a rider sliding along the ground could break their back, or their head for that matter. Markers and barriers HAVE to have a little give to them. Also, if this guy was a skiier and expected the poles to not be so rigidly mounted, he may have intentionally hit the pole expecting it to move over or flop down, like ski course markers. Maybe he figured he was wearing armor, so smacking a little plastic pole would be a good way to shave off a half second. People need to be informed of the rigid nature of these things. I had no idea there was rebar in them!
That's too bad about the closure though.
Now, if there was a pole on it I won't be quite so symphetic. Still though, I think that is a terribly dangerous way to mount poles. Again, a crashing rider could break the pole and impale themselves, or a rider sliding along the ground could break their back, or their head for that matter. Markers and barriers HAVE to have a little give to them. Also, if this guy was a skiier and expected the poles to not be so rigidly mounted, he may have intentionally hit the pole expecting it to move over or flop down, like ski course markers. Maybe he figured he was wearing armor, so smacking a little plastic pole would be a good way to shave off a half second. People need to be informed of the rigid nature of these things. I had no idea there was rebar in them!
That's too bad about the closure though.
I don't think the guy thought it was going to give, from the look of his site when it was up he was a pretty experienced racer. I've heard alot of people talking about the flex ski poles i can tell you from personal experience if you hit that thing with your ped, the same thing is going to happen, the flex point is pretty high. We use to use them all the time for Dual Slalom back in the day. Hitting anything at 30miles an hour in a corner is an iffy prop.towelie said:
Acadian said:
My opinion is that they do not want to ban DH, but to get the insurance they have to, and the insurance people set the 35lb thing. I think that as long as you are within the "rules", they will let most things go to get the business.
If I have to trail ride though I will, and with as much bike as they will will allow.
Another perspective found on the empty beer forums:
Effects of the Lawsuit blown out of proportion
Here's a persepctive I got from a friend in BB:
"They have been looking for a good excuse to shut DH down for a while here. It has never produced near enough revenue to make it a profitable venture. They are talking about this shutdown only in the prior stages of the law suit and blowing it way out of proportion considering there haven't even been any negotiations yet. It has nothing to do with Brian and everything to do with Team Big Bear. Dick Kuhn (Snow Summit owner-49% shareholder) was very close to Pat Follet's mother. He let Pat do it as a favor to his mother.He never liked the idea and grumbled about it for quite some time. The love was never there for Pat to make it fun, he didn't like DH and had no interest in making anyone happy, just enough to make money. But everyone knows with only a little more work, a lot more people would come and a lot less would get hurt. To Pat it wasn't worth the money or time. To Snow Summit, negative about it in the first place, it was a bad taste in their mouth. To the already challenged forest problems it was even worse of a venture to the forestry.
For years Snow Summit told Team Big Bear if they were to operate at Snow Summit they were to maintain trails. Pat sold Dick Cuhn on the advice that he was experienced enough to make it a lucrative business. However gravity is not where Pat's experience lies at all. Team Big Bear are XC racers and have never respected anything else. They do DH races purely for the money and hoard as much of that as possible. Scrimping and saving at racers expense. Pat Follet doesn't have the name, "Fat Wallet" for nothing. When I first started doing work for them, all of their nasty talk was about downhillers. How much they complained and how they could care less about their concerns and were proud of it. One day my friend overheard them on the radio talking to one of the guys in charge of marking the course. The guy said that he had run out of PVC. Pat came back on the radio and said, "It cost too much money, he wasn't buying anymore for the DHer's and to run it without". To run raw exposed rebar without PVC over it. Team Big Bear's motto to racers is, "Heh, it's an obstacle, get over it".
Team Big Bear over exaggerates too and blows everything out of proportion. It's their own fault they are getting Summit sued. They are always cutting costs at riders xpenses.They use rebar for course markers. They don't maintain trails .They supply no communication or education of the risk involved with their poor design, lack thereof or pole marker choice.
They don't put adequate staff on course. If there isn't enough money in it for them, then they shouldn't have been doing it. Hiring incapable teenagers who lack self esteem to be in charge of course design with no real experience is asinine.
So a few people won't be able to ride, but no-one will again be paralyzed or killed there. It isn't Summit's fault as much as Team Big Bears. I hope they don't continue with their evil ways everywhere else. I hope they are shut down. And they don't like DHer's anyway. They can't stand them.
I think we are all stupid for having anything to do with them. But they are practically the monopoly now. Until they do it right they shouldn't do it at all. But who knows what it will take to stop them. "
Effects of the Lawsuit blown out of proportion
Here's a persepctive I got from a friend in BB:
"They have been looking for a good excuse to shut DH down for a while here. It has never produced near enough revenue to make it a profitable venture. They are talking about this shutdown only in the prior stages of the law suit and blowing it way out of proportion considering there haven't even been any negotiations yet. It has nothing to do with Brian and everything to do with Team Big Bear. Dick Kuhn (Snow Summit owner-49% shareholder) was very close to Pat Follet's mother. He let Pat do it as a favor to his mother.He never liked the idea and grumbled about it for quite some time. The love was never there for Pat to make it fun, he didn't like DH and had no interest in making anyone happy, just enough to make money. But everyone knows with only a little more work, a lot more people would come and a lot less would get hurt. To Pat it wasn't worth the money or time. To Snow Summit, negative about it in the first place, it was a bad taste in their mouth. To the already challenged forest problems it was even worse of a venture to the forestry.
For years Snow Summit told Team Big Bear if they were to operate at Snow Summit they were to maintain trails. Pat sold Dick Cuhn on the advice that he was experienced enough to make it a lucrative business. However gravity is not where Pat's experience lies at all. Team Big Bear are XC racers and have never respected anything else. They do DH races purely for the money and hoard as much of that as possible. Scrimping and saving at racers expense. Pat Follet doesn't have the name, "Fat Wallet" for nothing. When I first started doing work for them, all of their nasty talk was about downhillers. How much they complained and how they could care less about their concerns and were proud of it. One day my friend overheard them on the radio talking to one of the guys in charge of marking the course. The guy said that he had run out of PVC. Pat came back on the radio and said, "It cost too much money, he wasn't buying anymore for the DHer's and to run it without". To run raw exposed rebar without PVC over it. Team Big Bear's motto to racers is, "Heh, it's an obstacle, get over it".
Team Big Bear over exaggerates too and blows everything out of proportion. It's their own fault they are getting Summit sued. They are always cutting costs at riders xpenses.They use rebar for course markers. They don't maintain trails .They supply no communication or education of the risk involved with their poor design, lack thereof or pole marker choice.
They don't put adequate staff on course. If there isn't enough money in it for them, then they shouldn't have been doing it. Hiring incapable teenagers who lack self esteem to be in charge of course design with no real experience is asinine.
So a few people won't be able to ride, but no-one will again be paralyzed or killed there. It isn't Summit's fault as much as Team Big Bears. I hope they don't continue with their evil ways everywhere else. I hope they are shut down. And they don't like DHer's anyway. They can't stand them.
I think we are all stupid for having anything to do with them. But they are practically the monopoly now. Until they do it right they shouldn't do it at all. But who knows what it will take to stop them. "
I'll be good practice in case you ever come to the real mecca - welly trackMikeD said: