If you had the chance to create a bike park, what would you do? This is not limited to DH/FR. Looking for some ideas for the progression of bike parks and what the future might hold.
If you could build a bike park............
- Thread starter craftbrewed
- Start date
Im yet to see a bikepark that has flowy fr trails for smaller bikes (bottlerocket type) and at the same type WC worthy wide, steep, fast technical trails as well as slope/dirt parks that are quality. Diversify. Usually it has one or the other (well there are parks with dh and fr but ussualy they usualy put more effort in the one and the other suffers). That way I can go to ride with my fr and dj friends and not be bored (or make them bored).
Highland. They don't have the elevation for a WC level course, but they do everything else extremely well.
I would look toward what they're doing.
I would look toward what they're doing.
Unlimited free beer!
Hire trail builders who know what they're doing and then pay them more than minimum wage.
This above all else makes the difference between average and exceptional.
This above all else makes the difference between average and exceptional.
Clearly, you have not been to Whistler.
See why I used word usually?
Also not - I have not been but still there are not many places that offer the complete package. Leogang tries but I hate the fact how not maintained the trails are, winterberg is cool but the mountain limits them. Maybe something in Switzerland I dont know about. Maybe Hajfell.
Nah. Just come to Whistler.
Seriously. What you described is all there. And more besides if you go off the hill and into the valley trails.
Seriously. What you described is all there. And more besides if you go off the hill and into the valley trails.
Hire buckoW!
I built a bike park here in S-E England, UK
Esher Shore
you can never *satisfy* every rider...some will hate your park, some will love it
we recently added a Pump Track with timber stunts, and riders are stoked on it!
regarding Whistler Bike Park - I have taken 3 vacations to WBP on 3 different years, and thoroughly enjoyed the riding, it has a great mix of trails, my favourites were Schleyer, Dirt Merchant and the entire Garbanzo Zone
I have also been to Winterberg Bike Park, Germany - and really liked that bike park, especially their freeride area and their awesome slopestyle park
it does not have the liability limitations of North American parks like WBP!!
Esher Shore
you can never *satisfy* every rider...some will hate your park, some will love it
we recently added a Pump Track with timber stunts, and riders are stoked on it!
regarding Whistler Bike Park - I have taken 3 vacations to WBP on 3 different years, and thoroughly enjoyed the riding, it has a great mix of trails, my favourites were Schleyer, Dirt Merchant and the entire Garbanzo Zone
I have also been to Winterberg Bike Park, Germany - and really liked that bike park, especially their freeride area and their awesome slopestyle park
it does not have the liability limitations of North American parks like WBP!!
Amen!
And you could always make a mini Whistler in Alpental's BC, that would be SICK! That's what I would vote for....
That, and the well-endowed chick who used to give $1/minute neck and back massages at The Longhorn patio in Whistler.
Okay I change my answer
is she the one who raced Pro but was really a dude?
I agree, mostly. Highland does some great things with their trails, but they stretch them to the breaking point. Lots of the trails have so many switchbacks that it chokes any amount of speed you have....but if they went straighter down the hill, the runs would be extremely short. They're right on the edge of being too loopy to be good. For a great example, see the center of fancy feast or the very bottom of maiden...
I would LOVE to see what they could have done with a larger mountain, though....which rolls back to where I see the progression going. Taller mountains with quality trail building. Diablo has great trailbuilding, Highland has great trailbuilding, Whistler has the complete package. I was at Plattekill this year and they actually have put effort into their trails and it shows...lots of berms in strategic places and actual trail signs...wild stuff.
Umm, no.is she the one who raced Pro but was really a dude?
(She also worked nights at Moe Joe's).
Attachments
agreed.. imo highland> diablo
Well, if I were to build a bike park and it had berms, I would make sure the berms are actually rideable. (Northstar are you listening?)
Ya son, HOLLA AT YOUR BOY
A+ on that photo, I like how it is perfectly centered!
if you're talking about trail diversity diablo>highland. But I will say it's pretty rough riding a shorter travel bike all day at diablo vs highland.. But I'd say Whistler takes the cake, hard to top what Whistler can offer.. I think of Highland as a mini-whistler(very nice facilities, dirt jumps, new indoor facility much like air-dome in whistler), I just wish the mtn was bigger.
Honestly, if you took the trail building and the facilities of Highland and put it on a bigger mountain(I say diablo b/c it's close to me), I think that'd be a pretty solid combo.
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Thanks for the feedback. I think we all know that whistler is great but why specifically. I agree with diversity being key. My idea of a bike park would include DH, FR, AM, XC, DJ and DS on the mt. bike side and also include bmx djs and a bmx tracks. As well as different skills areas for each discipline. I think incorporating bmx with mtb would allow for more people to be introduced to mtb bike parks. A motocross and pit bike track wouldn't hurt either.
What services should this park include? For example Well-endowed massage therapists. Unlimited beer. Strip club. Camping, showers.......
And what about the future of bike parks?
What services should this park include? For example Well-endowed massage therapists. Unlimited beer. Strip club. Camping, showers.......
And what about the future of bike parks?
Because they hire guys like adam billinghurst to build trails.
While it's a neat idea, I can't see anybody paying to ride XC trails outside of state park entrance fees....even then I specifically try and find parks that don't charge for entrance.
For amenities, on-site camping or hotels, bar/beer service on site, and maybe showers would be nice. I find that places that are either local to cities or offer on-site camping do better than places that offer neither, at least on the east coast.
For the future, I think you'll fewer mountains offering lift service, at least out here, but a better selection of trails from beginner to pro, and jump lines and things of that nature. I wouldn't be surprised to see highland with a ray's style MTB park in the next few years. Their HTC is close already.
I'd like to see discounted season passes go down a certain % each year you buy one to a certain limit of course (5yr limit ex.), that shows your dedication and support to the mountain, esp if you buy a winter pass too.
I think one thing that is cool about Whistler is the different style of trails and different difficulty levels. I don't like some of the trails there, but some people love those ones. Some that I like others don't care for. Your not stuck riding a certain style of trails. My biggest complant about Whistler is how rough A-line is. I think the trail could be build in such a way that the corners help regulate your speed better thus less braking. I went to Silverstar a few years a go and there A-Line trail seemed a bit better. I understand that with high traffic its going to get rough. Just my .02
Is something new brewing for central PA?
I knew I should have hid my location but yes there is something brewing. My riding/business partner and I are currently working on a business plan and sales presentation. We will be presenting this to a resort in central PA. I'm collecting market research for the business plan so this thread has been informational and I hope the good ideas continue. I like hearing ideas from all over the world and would like to hear some feedback from more mid-atlantic riders. One idea is to hold a race late this year to bring riders to the mountain and generate some revenue for the start of next year. We have lots of big ideas but don't want to jump the gun. This is very early in the planning stages and the more we hear from other riders the better. Thank you for your time.
Awesome, that's what I wanted to hear!
You've gotten some great ideas already, but I'll add my $.02:
As far as amenities/accommodations go, I'd love to see a locker/changing area, with a place to clean up after riding all day. Some secure bike storage options would be great to, since I always want to bring more than one bike, but don't really like to leave a bike just locked to a rack on my car and unattended.
Depending on what's available at the towns around the mountain, a decent place to eat, get out of the sun/rain, and get some good beer... something like TROEGS, would be sweet.
Since you'll be pulling from the same market as 7Springs, I'd say read all the feedback about that mountain, and then do mostly the opposite of what they do.
You've gotten some great ideas already, but I'll add my $.02:
As far as amenities/accommodations go, I'd love to see a locker/changing area, with a place to clean up after riding all day. Some secure bike storage options would be great to, since I always want to bring more than one bike, but don't really like to leave a bike just locked to a rack on my car and unattended.
Depending on what's available at the towns around the mountain, a decent place to eat, get out of the sun/rain, and get some good beer... something like TROEGS, would be sweet.
Since you'll be pulling from the same market as 7Springs, I'd say read all the feedback about that mountain, and then do mostly the opposite of what they do.
It sounds like you are trying to do way too much. Focus on DH trails with optional big stunts and jump trails like A-line. IF you manage to do those two concepts well then move on to some of the other trail types.
I was at Highland last month, and I'd estimate that 5% of the ridership that weekend were riding the small DJs and about 2% were hitting the slopestyle park features.
I was at Highland last month, and I'd estimate that 5% of the ridership that weekend were riding the small DJs and about 2% were hitting the slopestyle park features.
Agreed... there was a great article a while back in (I think) BIKE mag about how extensive/fun the lesser known lesser traveled DH trails are there and can be....I think it was a Tour of Whistler on shorter travel 6"+ bikes type article... written by two riders and I think maybe Lopes was one of the authors...
I forget some of the trail names (Maybe RigidHack could chime in here..) but I know that I saved the article somewhere to have for a possible future trip for myself.
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I know what makes me drool about Whistler. Every time I read a big vacation write up from you guys, I see the bike park for 2-4 days, then these epic all day long excursions through shuttle and day trip services that take you away from the mountain to all sorts of other adventures right from your door step in the village.
It's what I think makes the skiing/snowboarding out west what it is (other than massive mountains with pow). You can hit the park and then hit the backcountry.
So maybe your business plan should involve a full service lift assisted bike park AND complimentary tour service direct from the resort for off park excursions. If you're going to get people there for a week, they'll want both types of riding.
It's what I think makes the skiing/snowboarding out west what it is (other than massive mountains with pow). You can hit the park and then hit the backcountry.
So maybe your business plan should involve a full service lift assisted bike park AND complimentary tour service direct from the resort for off park excursions. If you're going to get people there for a week, they'll want both types of riding.
To chime in on the "Trying to do too much" thing.... Yes, no one wants to see something start with great intentions only to fail miserably.... Or, starting off slow and trying to play catch up often can put a bad taste in the mouths of riders as well... kind of follows up on Amish Matt's comments on looking at 7Springs and then doing the opposite of what they've done.
But, taking a good look at what others have done, using feedback from threads such as this, and KNOWING what you're getting into and the scale of what it would take to properly launch it? Can only make for a stronger business plan for it from the start.
I'd also second the comments on the post ride offerings... having a place to hit up after a day of riding to clean up (not just trying to towel off ground in leg dirt, mop up with wipes, and have to sit around after being sweaty all day and getting monkey butt would be key.)
And, not having to sit on the tailgate in the parking lot trying to down some post ride re-fuel (sandwiches, etc.) makes it nice....
That being said, somewhere to hit that serves more than just burgers/dogs... food that's a little bit of a step up would solidify the deal for me....
Clean, fresh pair o shorts n a T? Kickin' back with some nice grub and a Sunshine Pils on a hot day after riding?.... It gets overused but I'll say it, "It doesn't get any better than that."
But, taking a good look at what others have done, using feedback from threads such as this, and KNOWING what you're getting into and the scale of what it would take to properly launch it? Can only make for a stronger business plan for it from the start.
I'd also second the comments on the post ride offerings... having a place to hit up after a day of riding to clean up (not just trying to towel off ground in leg dirt, mop up with wipes, and have to sit around after being sweaty all day and getting monkey butt would be key.)
And, not having to sit on the tailgate in the parking lot trying to down some post ride re-fuel (sandwiches, etc.) makes it nice....
That being said, somewhere to hit that serves more than just burgers/dogs... food that's a little bit of a step up would solidify the deal for me....
Clean, fresh pair o shorts n a T? Kickin' back with some nice grub and a Sunshine Pils on a hot day after riding?.... It gets overused but I'll say it, "It doesn't get any better than that."
Now we have some good ideas flowing. I like your idea for the changing rooms and showers. I agree, it is very annoying to try and clean-up in the parking lot before a long ride home. And I like the bike lock-up idea too. It always concerns me to leave my bike unattended when going for lunch or something.
We plan to work with the resort or local restaurants to provide food services. I'd also like to talk to a local microbrewery(mmmm Hopback) to work out some type of deal. I'd like to see us have on-site camping with a group bonfire on friday/saturday nights, relaxing, bsing, drinking, music(live) or something of that nature. Some of what I like about going to parks & races is meeting new people. This would allow for great roundtable discussions and immediate feedback from our users. It seems the off bike park amenities are lacking at many parks and would like to make our park an entire experience on and off the trails.
As far as doing too much, some of those ideas are long term goals and will be developed as indicated by our users. I see the negative feedback on other parks and dont want to make the same mistakes. Sorry for any rambling, that's it for now.
I have lots of research to do so keep the ideas and suggestions coming.
Thanks you.
We plan to work with the resort or local restaurants to provide food services. I'd also like to talk to a local microbrewery(mmmm Hopback) to work out some type of deal. I'd like to see us have on-site camping with a group bonfire on friday/saturday nights, relaxing, bsing, drinking, music(live) or something of that nature. Some of what I like about going to parks & races is meeting new people. This would allow for great roundtable discussions and immediate feedback from our users. It seems the off bike park amenities are lacking at many parks and would like to make our park an entire experience on and off the trails.
As far as doing too much, some of those ideas are long term goals and will be developed as indicated by our users. I see the negative feedback on other parks and dont want to make the same mistakes. Sorry for any rambling, that's it for now.
I have lots of research to do so keep the ideas and suggestions coming.
Thanks you.
create diverse revenue streams, so its not just bike riding that is pumping $$ into your venue, the trick is to create a "destination" for people, not just bike riders..
some of the indoor skateparks here in the UK have done very well from having a Salsa bar or restaurant, internet cafe or juice bar, night club, etc. on site to bring non-riders / skaters into their venue to spend $$$
some of the indoor skateparks here in the UK have done very well from having a Salsa bar or restaurant, internet cafe or juice bar, night club, etc. on site to bring non-riders / skaters into their venue to spend $$$
I think it's that it is so perfectly structured. Everything at Whistler flows, an with all the table tops and such on runs like Crank It Up, it's a place where riders can really progress without killing themselves. So a good green end, a solid blue middle, and then having the upper trails off of garbonzo in an area where *most* everyone knows what they are doing so the berms don't get too rutted out.
^^^^^ This. Above all else. Hire someone with a good reputation as a builder, pay him salary, not hourly. Try to get a core group of guys willing to commit long term as head builders, as opposed to having JUST a revolving door of seasonal workers.
The valley trails, outside of the WBP are extensive and fantastic, and at least as varied - if not more so than the stuff in the park itself. It is a side to Whistler that a lot of people do not pay any attention to.
Another thing about Whistler is that the whole park can be ridden quite easily on a 6x6 bike (+ a bit of rider skill). I've been using my hard tail there for the past couple of weeks and it is incredibly fun!
Whistler does have the advantage of massive vertical, and with the Garbanzo Zone open it is really 2 mountains in one. The top is much harder than the bottom in general, and helps thin out the crowds.
When it comes to trails, diversity is key. You will need a machine made jump trail for experts (think A-Line) and one for intermediates (think Crank It Up) plus at least 3 technical trails that combine natural features and some woodwork (think Schleyer / Joyride / Devil's Club) for experts & intermediates. You will also need a beginner trail (fire road with some small hits off to the side is ok) and a semi-advanced "technical" trail (think Ninja Cougar). That should be enough, if the trails are done well, to sustain a full day of riding for most people to start with. Enough to avoid the "I got ripped off 'cause there are only 2 trails here" effect anyway.
If you can set up a pub-style place with a patio where people can watch the riders come down, even better - especially if you put some decent sized jumps in the lower park. Not crazy boneyard big, but enough to be entertaining for riders and non-riders alike. The GLC drops do this at Whistler. Even when you are not riding, it is fun to watch people go off them.
The showers and bike lock-up ideas are primo! Well done! There is no question that a salaried trail staff - or at least a salaried supervisor to begin with will make a big difference. I think the key, oddly enough given the suggestions of this post, is to use the natural terrain of the hill to its greatest advantage. Don't try to be "another Whistler" in the literal sense. What features does your hill have that others don't? Is there potential for a really nice drop, or wicked steep section, gully, ridge, roots, rocks, tight trees that you have to zip in and out of that is only found on your hill? If so USE IT - SHOWCASE IT.
Another thing about Whistler is that the whole park can be ridden quite easily on a 6x6 bike (+ a bit of rider skill). I've been using my hard tail there for the past couple of weeks and it is incredibly fun!
Whistler does have the advantage of massive vertical, and with the Garbanzo Zone open it is really 2 mountains in one. The top is much harder than the bottom in general, and helps thin out the crowds.
When it comes to trails, diversity is key. You will need a machine made jump trail for experts (think A-Line) and one for intermediates (think Crank It Up) plus at least 3 technical trails that combine natural features and some woodwork (think Schleyer / Joyride / Devil's Club) for experts & intermediates. You will also need a beginner trail (fire road with some small hits off to the side is ok) and a semi-advanced "technical" trail (think Ninja Cougar). That should be enough, if the trails are done well, to sustain a full day of riding for most people to start with. Enough to avoid the "I got ripped off 'cause there are only 2 trails here" effect anyway.
If you can set up a pub-style place with a patio where people can watch the riders come down, even better - especially if you put some decent sized jumps in the lower park. Not crazy boneyard big, but enough to be entertaining for riders and non-riders alike. The GLC drops do this at Whistler. Even when you are not riding, it is fun to watch people go off them.
The showers and bike lock-up ideas are primo! Well done! There is no question that a salaried trail staff - or at least a salaried supervisor to begin with will make a big difference. I think the key, oddly enough given the suggestions of this post, is to use the natural terrain of the hill to its greatest advantage. Don't try to be "another Whistler" in the literal sense. What features does your hill have that others don't? Is there potential for a really nice drop, or wicked steep section, gully, ridge, roots, rocks, tight trees that you have to zip in and out of that is only found on your hill? If so USE IT - SHOWCASE IT.
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RigidHack,
Great post!
Those last five sentences are KEY! Nice input.
Great post!
Those last five sentences are KEY! Nice input.