[BurlyShirley]

Well, not to be sound too optimistic, but how much has the sport of MotoX grown in the last couple years? ALOT. I think the main thing keeping people from DH is a lack of coverage and ready-to-rock rides. Think about XR50s and how many of those are being sold these days...probably 5 times as many as in 1994. If Honda sees a chance to take hold of another field of racing, and make some money, you know they'd do it. Maybe they are expecting the market to grow.

But really, I cant make the numbers work, and I see what you're saying, but the other items just dont add up. There is no legitimate crossover from DH to MX in terms of performance. Perhaps honda is just developing some good things so they can license out the patents and make a bunch of cash thataway. But...Honda'd be great for the sport IMO.

 

[BMXERNAR]

Maybe they were all bored and wanted to see if they could build a WC downhill bike. But anyway It gives us all something to talk about. So what the he((. :devil:

 

[buildyourown]

I wouldn't be suprised if Honda was just testing the MTB waters to see if there is a market. They have lots of capital to play with. They are also spending an ungodly amount of money developing a new uber effecient jet engine for a class of planes that doesn't even exist yet. Kind of like Avalanche making a 3" stroke shock before there were any applications for it. They are trying to create new markets for their products. If the internal drive works out, they would already be on top of the pile.

 

[mental]

I think this will see the market as well. If not under the Honda name, then licensed under one or more others.

If this gearbox is even close to what they claim, they'd be absolute idiots not to bring it to the consumer, one way or another. If I had to hazard a guess, it'll be available by mid-2006 under at least 2 brand names.

 

[Jm_]

Is it too-legit to quit?


What the hell is this thread about?

 

[DHanamal]

they're skipping the next 2 world cup stops in favour of the norba series.....seems strange to me. so keep an eye out for him at snowshoe.

Really? Nice! I was worried the pro turnout was gonna be small because of the world cup conflict.

 

[bizutch]

you a fan following the superstars on their cross country trek?

 

[Dingus McGee]

I was just trying to make a point, because nobody even mentioned Greg Minnaar for the win. He couldn't have won on a beach cruiser, but he has won World Cups on other bikes, Orange 222, Haro DHR. I'm sure the Honda bike rides extremely well, but the bike is nothing without a good pilot.

Edit- yep.

 

[TWISTED]

I just recieved an early edition copy of next months Mountainbike Action. Now the Honda DH bikes make total sense. MBA says that with the increase of more and more strict air pollution rules we will soon see the end of motorcycle dirt bikes as we know them. First it was the pressure to switch from two stroke motocross engines to the more enviromentally friendly four strokes. The next ruling proves to be a much harsher blow. By 2006 it will be unlawful for engine displacement to exceed 50cc on any dirt bike sold in the United States. This of course would mean the end motocross racing unless something drastic took place. H.R.C., Honda's motorcycle racing division has always been on the cutting edge when it comes to innovation so it comes as no suprise to learn that they have planned all along to install the popular xr50 mini bike motor in the Honda DH bike chassis. The clues were obvious considering the recent name change of Honda's smallest dirt bike to the official racing label of crf 50r. Interviews with Team Honda's Ricky Carmicael reveal his utter disbelief in the incredible performance of the new machine.
Check your news stands for the latest issue of Mountainbike Action.

 

[downhillzeypher]

AND that rocket engine is really going to be strapped under the seat to comphensate for the lack of grunt from the 50cc.

Saw it coming all along. Duh.

 

[FarkinRyan]

Call me stupid, but is there some reason the CVT itself wouldn't be adaptable to dirt-bikes? The technology has already been used to build one of the fastest accelerating F1 cars ever built, why wouldn't Honda want to develop the concept as a replacement for a standard moto transmission?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Call me stupid, but is there some reason the CVT itself wouldn't be adaptable to dirt-bikes? The technology has already been used to build one of the fastest accelerating F1 cars ever built, why wouldn't Honda want to develop the concept as a replacement for a standard moto transmission?

I'm not saying it wouldnt be adaptable but uh...why not test them on dirtbikes then?

 

[TWISTED]

AND that rocket engine is really going to be strapped under the seat to comphensate for the lack of grunt from the 50cc.

Saw it coming all along. Duh.

MBA quotes the Honda CRF 50dh's weight at 67 lbs. This weight may scare away even the most hardcore of the extreme downhillers but at 158lbs lighter than Honda's current flagship MX racer it is by all means a lightweight. It is also said that the crf 50 motor has of course seen extensive internal modifications that Honda remains tight lipped about. Again, a quote from Team Honda's Ricky Carmichael, "This thing aint no kid's toy!"
You heard it hear first.

 

[CraigH]

Also, having Showa and Kayaba come up with MTB forks just for this little test doesnt make sense either unless they had some real way to profit, as theyre independent companies, and designing a comletely new fork for something like this sounds like a stretch to me.

Showa made their first mtn bike forks back in '92 for Trek.

Ref. http://www.firstflightbikes.com/suspensi.htm

Since then they have been making parts for Avalanche & Stratos.

http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/faq.html

http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/news/?op=sectionlist&section=14

 

[BurlyShirley]

Avy site: "Both forks are identical in design and performance, seals and slider bushings are purchased from Showa and are used in...blah blah blah"

Stratos :"Most notable features of the shock are its remote reservoir, internal bladder system, SHOWA seals"

Uh...those plus that piece of crap on the Trek are a far cry from world class downhill racing forks. Of course they make seals of alot of different sizes, they're a huge suspension co. but its not like they're actually active at all themselves in the sport of MTB til now.

 

[Pegboy]

Uhm...I am almost positive I have seen a showa dual crown DH fork.

 

[CraigH]

Does anyone remember which Japanese fork company was making forks for someone like THE? I seem to recall an article in one of the bike mags a couple of years ago. I think it was Kowa.

Looks like they are still selling them in Japan. (Looks like they need an English translator...)

http://www.kowa-ss.co.jp/newproductline.htm

They make non-inverted forks too.

http://www.kowa-ss.co.jp/event.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Found some more pics of Showa mtn bike forks, ya they are single crown. Apparantely called "SHOWA GRAVIER"

Edit to fix formatting of pics.

 

[BurlyShirley]

That "the" fork looks like a White Bros pretty much. I wish showa would fully commit and go ahead and destroy the stuff we ride now.

 

[thaflyinfatman]

Call me stupid, but is there some reason the CVT itself wouldn't be adaptable to dirt-bikes? The technology has already been used to build one of the fastest accelerating F1 cars ever built, why wouldn't Honda want to develop the concept as a replacement for a standard moto transmission?

I'm not sure about this, but I think the CVT used in the F1 car was a different method to the eccentric/cam in the dh bike. The thing in the DH bike will stall if it spins too fast, because of the weird inertiatic forces provided by the internals.

 

[bibs]

what about the rebadged Honda/Mountain Cycles a couple of years ago. I agree this bike will not go in to production but if DH ever explodes in to mainstream like X-games stuff I'll bet that the mighty Honda will be selling bicycles to the masses. Also lawill rear ends developed for MTB's, have made their way on to motorcycles (flat trackersand choppers).

 

[SebringMGB]

I'm not sure about this, but I think the CVT used in the F1 car was a different method to the eccentric/cam in the dh bike. The thing in the DH bike will stall if it spins too fast, because of the weird inertiatic forces provided by the internals.

yeh, the honda gear box is only usefull for low rpm, low torque. definitly not a crossover bit.

 

[Toshi]

inertiatic forces

. unless you were talking about the mars volta...

 

[Ice Bullit]

If they would put out a shocks (front and rear) that would be good enough for me. They would never bust and feel buttery smooth all the time

 

[rockracing]

Does anyone remember which Japanese fork company was making forks for someone like THE? I seem to recall an article in one of the bike mags a couple of years ago. I think it was Kowa.

Looks like they are still selling them in Japan. (Looks like they need an English translator...)

http://www.kowa-ss.co.jp/newproductline.htm

They make non-inverted forks too.

http://www.kowa-ss.co.jp/event.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Found some more pics of Showa mtn bike forks, ya they are single crown. Apparantely called "SHOWA GRAVIER"

Edit to fix formatting of pics.

didn't Tomac ride showa forks back in the day.....anodised electric blue.....? just liike those yellow ones above ??

 

[Tom DH]

Kowa and Showa are very closely related. There is a strong family connection I think it’s the nephew of the boss of Showa that is the head of Kowa. The THE forks were the same as the X-lite Wompa forks and my mate had a set of them (witch he has only just got rid of) and they ran on a air/oil dampening system but they were still quite heavy but very plush.

If you look closely at the Showa forks on the Honda bike they look a lot like the Kowa ones.

Hears a link about the X-lite forks http://www.sonicteam.karoo.net/FORKS7.html

 

[crashing_sux]

In figuring the numbers needed to make it intersting for Honda don't forget that as mountain bikers we will pay ridiculous prices for stuff. Honda could sell this bike for $4500 and sell a lot of them but be making 4 times as much profit off of each one compared to one of their MX bikes. It wouldn't cost nearly as much to design and build a DH mountain bike yet they retail for almost as much to the consumer.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

. unless you were talking about the mars volta...

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH :nuts:

 

[flow]

Personally I think Honda is looking at the DH scene and saying look at all these crazy fools dropping 5G's on wannabe MX bikes without engines. A light bulb in their head went off and they saw $$$ flashing in the sky.

Who cares what they're saying now about this technology being trickled to MX bikes, Honda is a very conservative company and once they've got the world convinced that they make the best DH bike they're going to release it for less $$$ then the competition.

Strictly opinion, but I could be wrong.

 

[floody_79]

I have huge doubts about the "early MBA article" it sounds like bullsh!t to me.
reason 1) I have good contacts in the MX industry here in Australia, and I can tell you that if MX bikes as we know them were going out of production in less than 2 years, I'd have heard something by now.
reason 2) It get more complex from here...
Ok so they can build a ~30kg MX bike using DH parts and a 50cc engine. Now if we were to assume it made 10hp (and more on that power output later), thats 10hp:30kg or a static power to weight ratio of 3kg:1hp , compared to a current 450-600cc MX bike making roughly 50hp:110kg or 2.2kg:1hp. On those numbers the 50cc bikes performance should be good, but thats without a rider. Add an 80kg rider and things change for the worse. A typical MX bike with a 80kg rider's power to weight becomes 190kg:50hp , or roughly 4kg:hp , however the little Honda's power to weight will become 110kg:10hp - a staggeringly poor power to weight ratio of 11kg:1hp - more than twice as bad as the 450's.
Also thusfar we have ignored the problem of torque....To make 10hp, which is a wildly extravagant estimate given that a 50cc engine would need to make more than 200hp:litre for its specific output, would involve extremely high revs and due to the small swept capacity and lightweight internal components such a 50cc motor would make very little torque, and make it at very high revs, within a very narrow band.
MX bikes need torque - most development is centred around it rather than out and out top end power- and tractability, couple with flexibility of power delivery and the 50cc engine would struggle to deliver any. That's where the CVT comes in I guess, since it could keep the engine near its torque and power peaks better than any rider, but I still don't think it would be enough.
The final problem is to do with that specific power output I discussed earlier- that 200hp:litre output would require an incredibly wild state of tune. The engine would need to spin ridiculously high RPM, and have a valvetrain and reciprocating parts to match, things like the crankshaft,piston, conrod, bearing would all need to be super strong and at the same time very light and , by necessity, TINY.
Currently no production engine makes anywhere near that specific power output, naturally aspirated, Honda's S2000 car engine does make 250hp:2 litres which is 125hp:litre, but it does not have potential to make much more. The million dollar engines in the BTCC series during the 90's struggled to make more than 150hp:litre with the best of the best. Even F1 cars barely make that sort of power....
I think that would knock around the production capability of the bike considerably.



Now back on a more mtb related note,
I had some of those showa forks in the early/mid 90's, they were stickered up as Tioga but still bore Showa markings on the parts. They weren't strictly availabe to the public back then either. Mine were very similar to the yellow ones except the crown was black painted Magnesium, the stanchions hardchromed cro-mo, and the lowers/arch in polished/machined aluminium with black anodised fasteners.
They worked very well, however were impossible to get parts for and I threw them away in about 1998 after a period of storage. I think they dated to about 1994.
Tomac did indeed ride some, ano'd blue, and though the trek forks were made by showa, these were a whole other story with very exotic materials and design, by comparison.

Also, Honda ain't the first to do this. Kawasaki built and campaigned a DH bike in NORBA briefly in the mid 90's, I have a feeling 'Pistol' Pete Loncarevich may have ridden it pre Parkpre, Chumbawumba et al. It ran Kayaba manufactured forks from the production KX100 MX bike, as well as mx disc brakes. Thats all I remember though, I read about it in MBA many years ago.

 

[TWISTED]

I have huge doubts about the "early MBA article" it sounds like bullsh!t to me..

Did I forget to mention the Turbo?

 

[downhillzeypher]

I'm no genius, but on your hp/liter statement I'd just like to add that those the super high performance rc car motors can crank out 3hp (off of a 3.0cc/ci don't remeber which one).

 

[Nicolai-USA]

Currently no production engine makes anywhere near that specific power output, naturally aspirated, Honda's S2000 car engine does make 250hp:2 litres which is 125hp:litre, but it does not have potential to make much more. The million dollar engines in the BTCC series during the 90's struggled to make more than 150hp:litre with the best of the best.

Even F1 cars barely make that sort of power....

I think that would knock around the production capability of the bike considerably.

the top 2004 F1 cars have a mandated 3 liter normally aspirated engine producing in the neighbourhood of 900+ horsepower with a red line of around 19,000 rpm. Seems to me thats quite a bit of power.

 

[SebringMGB]

I'm no genius, but on your hp/liter statement I'd just like to add that those the super high performance rc car motors can crank out 3hp (off of a 3.0cc/ci don't remeber which one).

yes, but they run on nitro, which is stupid expensive, and they get horrendous gas milage. also the fact that they are so small makes a big difference. its not hard to crank out that kinda power from an engine running at 30,000 rpm, with a piston the size of a grape.

 

[vitox]

how would these cvt`s be used in a mx bike?

a normal accelerator on one hand and a torque/speed selector in the other?

 

[downhillzeypher]

Actaully the 3 hp ones usaully hit 50,000.

Also forgot that those motors last like 3-4 gallons before they're shot.

 

[Broken_Spoke]

I'm actually really surprised that he won on that bike, cos from the pics, it looks like his derailleur fell off at some point during the race.........

BWAHAHAHA

 

[KATSURAGI]

......Kayaba made those "shimano" forks that used to be on the Haro DH bikes.....my friend has some......Showa also made shocks for a DH bike made by a shop called "cycleworld"..... :

 

[thaflyinfatman]

. unless you were talking about the mars volta...

ahaha, I was wondering if that was a real word and arbitrarily voted yes.