[Wumpus]

This is pretty interesting. I did close to what this guy's neighbor did without the chat part. Pulled up to the neighborhood corner, looked both ways, and absolutely did not see the guy on a motorcycle(J on his Harley) until I had already started to cross the intersection. Still feel bad about it even though it wasn't even close.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/motorcycles/a19641/why-you-dont-see-motorcycles-on-the-road/

 

[Jm_]

A big part of my Master's of Safety Science was Ergonomics and Human Factors. There are inherent issues like this that we sometimes just don't address. No matter how "good" we want to be, no matter how hard we try, we make pretty shitty machines, and some things are outside of what we can perceive for various reasons. It's like the bikes vs. cars debate. The bottom line is that bikes will NEVER mix with cars and they should NEVER share the road with cars. A 4000lb vehicle and 200lb vehicle on the same surface is a recipe for disaster. The same might be true for motorcycles. As cool as it is to road ride, riding in a bike lane or on a road will mean cyclist deaths, not because people are out to get cyclists (well, there are a few), but because when you are driving, you are "programmed" to be looking for and reacting to threats. 200lbs of bicyclist simply isn't a threat and much of the time, it's outside of what a driver can perceive. The best way to have bikes go through an intersection would be an elevated roundabout for the bikes, above the car roundabout. They should be taken out of harms way, with a barrier or significantly displaced bike path (not part of the road).

What PS is talking about in terms of visual angle and blind spots isn't all that relevant IMO. They are discussing how motorcycles may take up a relatively small amount of visual angle, and while that is true, we are pretty good at detecting movement in our peripheries. It's more than 180 degrees, although car pillars and obstructions will obviously limit that.

Another human factors issue arises though when you consider older drivers, they often are more "locked" in straight ahead because they don't have the range of movement of their neck like younger drivers, they don't perceive as much on the sides for this and other reasons. This would be the "tunnel vision" described by PS, but this isn't the majority of the population and this is an issue in their ability to see other cars as well.

It's the old basketball video where you concentrate on the players and there's a guy in a monkey suit walking in the background that you don't even see. That's bikes and motorcycles. IMO, it's not so much the physiological issue of vision, but the physiological issues of perception and threat. Even when you "don't see" bikes and motorcycles, you ARE seeing them, your brain just chooses to ignore them. I don't think the PS solution of "consciously look around you" will really work. There's always going to be a time where you don't and your brain works just like I explained here. You can be looking "at" bikes and motorcycles and STILL not see them, because your brain is not programmed to react to them.

My graduate research project investigated visual perception and the threat of airplane collisions.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Self-driving cars.

 

[Toshi]

This is why I had high-viz everything, LED strobes... and still ended up selling the motorcycle. People are fallible at best and negligent more often what with texting and other phone distractions these days.

 

[dan-o]

Self-driving cars.

I've been resisting this as I love driving.
This view is evolving.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

A big part of my Master's of Safety Science was Ergonomics and Human Factors. There are inherent issues like this that we sometimes just don't address. No matter how "good" we want to be, no matter how hard we try, we make pretty shitty machines, and some things are outside of what we can perceive for various reasons. It's like the bikes vs. cars debate. The bottom line is that bikes will NEVER mix with cars and they should NEVER share the road with cars. A 4000lb vehicle and 200lb vehicle on the same surface is a recipe for disaster. The same might be true for motorcycles. As cool as it is to road ride, riding in a bike lane or on a road will mean cyclist deaths, not because people are out to get cyclists (well, there are a few), but because when you are driving, you are "programmed" to be looking for and reacting to threats. 200lbs of bicyclist simply isn't a threat and much of the time, it's outside of what a driver can perceive. The best way to have bikes go through an intersection would be an elevated roundabout for the bikes, above the car roundabout. They should be taken out of harms way, with a barrier or significantly displaced bike path (not part of the road).

What PS is talking about in terms of visual angle and blind spots isn't all that relevant IMO. They are discussing how motorcycles may take up a relatively small amount of visual angle, and while that is true, we are pretty good at detecting movement in our peripheries. It's more than 180 degrees, although car pillars and obstructions will obviously limit that.

Another human factors issue arises though when you consider older drivers, they often are more "locked" in straight ahead because they don't have the range of movement of their neck like younger drivers, they don't perceive as much on the sides for this and other reasons. This would be the "tunnel vision" described by PS, but this isn't the majority of the population and this is an issue in their ability to see other cars as well.

It's the old basketball video where you concentrate on the players and there's a guy in a monkey suit walking in the background that you don't even see. That's bikes and motorcycles. IMO, it's not so much the physiological issue of vision, but the physiological issues of perception and threat. Even when you "don't see" bikes and motorcycles, you ARE seeing them, your brain just chooses to ignore them. I don't think the PS solution of "consciously look around you" will really work. There's always going to be a time where you don't and your brain works just like I explained here. You can be looking "at" bikes and motorcycles and STILL not see them, because your brain is not programmed to react to them.

My graduate research project investigated visual perception and the threat of airplane collisions.

One could use this general line of reasoning to decide never to do anything in life. There is inherent risk in everything we do. I remain blissful riding a bicycle in rush hour traffic; if others don't want to, fine.

The perceived threat argument is interesting. An important part of my motorcycle training/learning was to regard all other vehicles on the road as a significant threat. I think I carry that today, whether walking, bicycling, or driving a motor vehicle.

 

[Pesqueeb]

 

[Jm_]

One could use this general line of reasoning to decide never to do anything in life. There is inherent risk in everything we do. I remain blissful riding a bicycle in rush hour traffic; if others don't want to, fine.

The perceived threat argument is interesting. An important part of my motorcycle training/learning was to regard all other vehicles on the road as a significant threat. I think I carry that today, whether walking, bicycling, or driving a motor vehicle.

Oh, it's not a reason to give up, but a reason to attack the real issues, to minimize the possibility of car-bicycle contact, with barriers, separation as much as possible, and so on. Real enforcement of visibility and sight-lines. How many times have you seen someone stop well past a stop-sign because the sides of the roads have all kinds of obstructions, it's almost all of the time. There's bushes and all sorts of crap there that prevents you from seeing if a bicycle, much less a car, is traveling down the road or side of the road. Planners and developers seem to not care one bit. For motorcycles, it could mean making things like lane-warning systems mandatory or pedestrian-warning systems like in europe. It means putting the resources in places that will be productive, rather than trying to tell drivers to "do better" over and over when we've reached the limit of human performance without unreasonable limits on personal freedom and cost (like making people take recurrent driving tests every 6 mo, etc.).

When I ride my bicycle to/from work, I try to separate myself as much as possible from the traffic and eliminate any chance of coming in contact with a car, yet I'll see dumbass riders riding on the side of the road when we have ice-covered roads with piles of snow on the side. There are all sorts of tracks to see where cars have gone off the road and sure as taxes, a few people on bikes here are wiped out each year, usually because they were "mixing it up" with cars. The perceived threat thing is real, you don't see what your brain doesn't tell you to see.

 

[cecil]

the problem with 90% of people behind the wheel of a motor vehicle, driving is their secondary function not their primary they are texting, playing with the radio, dealing with their kids in the back seat, putting on make up, or just of minimal intelligence and motor skills

 

[jdcamb]

I never post here while driving. I think I owe to all the people I have injured with a automobile. Its not that many people. Only like 3 or 4.... Because I care....

 

[SkaredShtles]

I've been resisting this as I love driving.
This view is evolving.

Yah. I "like" to drive - but what we do on a daily basis can only be loosely described as "driving" any more. It's more an exercise in frustration. Let me drink beer on the way home from work and nap on the way into work.

If I'm wanna drive - I'll go to the go-kart track or rent one of those really fancy cars on the big track.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Where are your robot overlords now?

 

[slyfink]

Yah. I "like" to drive - but what we do on a daily basis can only be loosely described as "driving" any more. It's more an exercise in frustration. Let me drink beer on the way home from work and nap on the way into work.

If I'm wanna drive - I'll go to the go-kart track or rent one of those really fancy cars on the big track.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Where are your robot overlords now?

I like the quote from the "Consumer Watchdog" guy...

"This accident is more proof that robot car technology is not ready for auto pilot" - just imagine if we held HUMANS to the standards that self-driving cars have set. They would ban every single one of us and make us walk/take the bus.

 

[Westy]

Some dude on a Harley tried to run me off the road today. Was passing him in the left lane going around a left hand bend. He decided to use all the lanes and crossed over into my lane. I was watching him and veered into the oncoming lanes. He seemed intent on using those lanes too, he didn't give way until he about brushed my mirror. Had I not been keeping an eye on him he would have lost that contest. Stay in your fucking lanes people.

 

[JohnE]

Almost got hit the other day. Wearing a bright yellow Pearl Izumi jacket, a goofy reflective slap bracelet anklet, had a rear light and a headlight going just before sunrise...was riding home from the gym, on a marked path...came to a cross walk, and this newer Challenger that had chirped his tires at the intersection was slowing as he ran parallel to me. I love Challengers, and was eyeballing him as he swung into the street I was about to cross. "He doesnt see me" thinks I...so I stop short. He smokes the yield sign and misses me by about 3 feet, thanks to my stopping. As he passe the bass of the "music" he is listening to shakes some of my fillings loose. I watch him go to the end of the lane and park, then run into the building (A chow hall...). I roll down to here he parked, find his car running unattended, and figure I will wait a minute...

He comes out, I say "This your car?" "Uhh, yeah..." I identify myself as a senior member of the base PoPo and ask for his i.d. He realizes something is up, and gets all nervous...I say "I am the guy you almost hit back there in the intersection..." He says "Where?" I resist the urge to drag him back to the scene, and relive the scenario for him..."Uhhh, I didnt see you Sgt..." "I know...your fucking music was too loud for you to see anything...you blew the stop sign, the yield at the marked cross walk, and you left your car running unattended with your music cranked up so loud they can hear it in Nevada..."

I look at his i.d, and he has my last name...and my older brothers first name and middle initial. At this point my ridiculous meter is pegged, and I suppress a giggle...

"You running late?"
"Yes Sir"
"Think how late you would be if you were scraping me out from underneath your car! Slow it down and open your fucking eyes!"

At this point I had him on the brink of tears...so I let him of the hook a bit.

I have been hit three times, fortunately never hurt badly, but I have been lucky because I am pretty paranoid of cars ad avoid them as much as possible while riding...

 

[Pesqueeb]

Almost got hit the other day. Wearing a bright yellow Pearl Izumi jacket, a goofy reflective slap bracelet anklet, had a rear light and a headlight going just before sunrise...was riding home from the gym, on a marked path...came to a cross walk, and this newer Challenger that had chirped his tires at the intersection was slowing as he ran parallel to me. I love Challengers, and was eyeballing him as he swung into the street I was about to cross. "He doesnt see me" thinks I...so I stop short. He smokes the yield sign and misses me by about 3 feet, thanks to my stopping. As he passe the bass of the "music" he is listening to shakes some of my fillings loose. I watch him go to the end of the lane and park, then run into the building (A chow hall...). I roll down to here he parked, find his car running unattended, and figure I will wait a minute...

He comes out, I say "This your car?" "Uhh, yeah..." I identify myself as a senior member of the base PoPo and ask for his i.d. He realizes something is up, and gets all nervous...I say "I am the guy you almost hit back there in the intersection..." He says "Where?" I resist the urge to drag him back to the scene, and relive the scenario for him..."Uhhh, I didnt see you Sgt..." "I know...your fucking music was too loud for you to see anything...you blew the stop sign, the yield at the marked cross walk, and you left your car running unattended with your music cranked up so loud they can hear it in Nevada..."

I look at his i.d, and he has my last name...and my older brothers first name and middle initial. At this point my ridiculous meter is pegged, and I suppress a giggle...

"You running late?"
"Yes Sir"
"Think how late you would be if you were scraping me out from underneath your car! Slow it down and open your fucking eyes!"

At this point I had him on the brink of tears...so I let him of the hook a bit.

I have been hit three times, fortunately never hurt badly, but I have been lucky because I am pretty paranoid of cars ad avoid them as much as possible while riding...

This happened on base? How dumb/fresh out of basic was this kid?

 

[JohnE]

Yep...he still smelled new.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Yep...he still smelled new.

So how long before the car gets repo'd you think? Dumb kid probably got an APR of around 23%

 

[DaveW]

I like the quote from the "Consumer Watchdog" guy...

"This accident is more proof that robot car technology is not ready for auto pilot" - just imagine if we held HUMANS to the standards that self-driving cars have set. They would ban every single one of us and make us walk/take the bus.

Yeah but who would drive the bus?...... Lizard people?

 

[SkaredShtles]

Yeah but who would drive the bus?...... Lizard people?

Self-driving bus, yo.

 

[jackalope]

A big part of my Master's of Safety Science was Ergonomics and Human Factors. There are inherent issues like this that we sometimes just don't address. No matter how "good" we want to be, no matter how hard we try, we make pretty shitty machines, and some things are outside of what we can perceive for various reasons. It's like the bikes vs. cars debate. The bottom line is that bikes will NEVER mix with cars and they should NEVER share the road with cars. A 4000lb vehicle and 200lb vehicle on the same surface is a recipe for disaster. The same might be true for motorcycles. As cool as it is to road ride, riding in a bike lane or on a road will mean cyclist deaths, not because people are out to get cyclists (well, there are a few), but because when you are driving, you are "programmed" to be looking for and reacting to threats. 200lbs of bicyclist simply isn't a threat and much of the time, it's outside of what a driver can perceive. The best way to have bikes go through an intersection would be an elevated roundabout for the bikes, above the car roundabout. They should be taken out of harms way, with a barrier or significantly displaced bike path (not part of the road).

What PS is talking about in terms of visual angle and blind spots isn't all that relevant IMO. They are discussing how motorcycles may take up a relatively small amount of visual angle, and while that is true, we are pretty good at detecting movement in our peripheries. It's more than 180 degrees, although car pillars and obstructions will obviously limit that.

Another human factors issue arises though when you consider older drivers, they often are more "locked" in straight ahead because they don't have the range of movement of their neck like younger drivers, they don't perceive as much on the sides for this and other reasons. This would be the "tunnel vision" described by PS, but this isn't the majority of the population and this is an issue in their ability to see other cars as well.

It's the old basketball video where you concentrate on the players and there's a guy in a monkey suit walking in the background that you don't even see. That's bikes and motorcycles. IMO, it's not so much the physiological issue of vision, but the physiological issues of perception and threat. Even when you "don't see" bikes and motorcycles, you ARE seeing them, your brain just chooses to ignore them. I don't think the PS solution of "consciously look around you" will really work. There's always going to be a time where you don't and your brain works just like I explained here. You can be looking "at" bikes and motorcycles and STILL not see them, because your brain is not programmed to react to them.

My graduate research project investigated visual perception and the threat of airplane collisions.

Is your masters work linkable? I'd like to peruse it, as it sounds interesting. Btw, I totally agree with you about line of sight obstructions, as I almost hit 2 early morning walkers the other day trying to pull out of my neighborhood - the neighborhood entrance has huge bushes on either side, making you have to pull up slowly while swiveling your head back and forth like you're having a seizure. And even then I still didn't see them until the last second.

Not directly related, but I've been fascinated how the human eye/brain works in terms of identifying unusual shapes and objects when you're not actually looking for them (or really anything for that matter). I've always had a knack for spotting weird stuff off the trail while I'm riding, which can range from multi-tools, snakes, orb shaped spider webs, weed pipe pinned to a tree some 10' up, to random holes in trees which resemble a vag...Never anything really useful other than...wait, most of those things are actually pretty useful. Anyway, in talking to my best eye doctor buddy (@Suboptimas Prime), he explained how your eyes are "designed" to see weird stuff in the peripheral field of vision, which I assume is to detect nearby potential prey (e.g. korean BBQ food truck) or threats (e.g. saber tooth tiger) sneaking up on you. But conversely you sometimes can't "see" shit right in front of you...like my cell phone 2 or 3 times per day.

 

[Jm_]

Is your masters work linkable? I'd like to peruse it, as it sounds interesting. Btw, I totally agree with you about line of sight obstructions, as I almost hit 2 early morning walkers the other day trying to pull out of my neighborhood - the neighborhood entrance has huge bushes on either side, making you have to pull up slowly while swiveling your head back and forth like you're having a seizure. And even then I still didn't see them until the last second..

http://www.ergonomics.org.uk/product/video-brian-peacock/

Not free unfortunately. My old professor combined my project and another and presented it in the UK last November, but it looks like it costs money to see. Guy was head of GM Ergonomics, but frustrated because they wouldn't let him use ergonomic principles in design (rather, suppliers and unions strong-armed the components and designs). Also designed the Hong Kong subway.

The research was surrounding visual angle, big vs. small objects, slow vs. fast speed, similar vs. dissimilar targets, reaction times, using displays to assist with detection, and so on. Findings were that perception is pretty shitty and beyond a certain distance, pilots perceived the target to be closer than it actually was. Inside that distance, the opposite was true. Using displays receiving target location information greatly assists with detection rather than just verbally trying to describe a point in space. A lot of the classes were centered around ergonomic principles like information theory, hit-rate/false-detection, etc.

 

[slyfink]

I don't know if this morning's episode was a case of cognitive blindness or just dumb-cunt-edness. My son's school bus stop is on a pretty busy arterial, so busy in fact, that it's stop and go traffic (as opposed to fast-moving). As a result, it usually happens 2-3x a month that someone doesn't stop for the flashing school bus lights. but this morning takes the cake. lady's car was stopped due to said stop and go traffic. bus stop pulls up, puts it's flashers on, the three of us parents step out on to the road (cars are stopped at this point), and this dumb cunt senses there's no cars in front of her and accelerates while looking down at her phone. She only looked up when three dads pounded on her car as she cut us off. But her instinct wasn't to stop, oh no, the stupid bitch accelerated. wtf?!?!

I only wish I'd taken a picture instead of hitting her car and yelling. Distracted driving and crossing a school bus with it's lights on?! that would have been a mighty big fine. One of the dad's ran after her, not sure if to take a picture or give her a piece of his mind. If it weren't for my swollen balls from the vasectomy, I would have chased her down to take a picture too. next time.

 

[Jm_]

She's asking for a self-driving car.

 

[OGRipper]

History will show that this is a very dangerous time out there: Almost everybody is constantly distracted by their phones and infotainment systems, but almost nobody has a self-driving vehicle. And younger people have never known it any other way.