[wydopen]

So I'm contemplating a new set of brakes..Currently on XO Trails

Before you tell me to get shimanos Ive ran them and do not like them..I like allot of modulation..and they just arnt for me..

I do like the xo's allot but I do get a little fade out of the rear on long 10min+ descents and I would prefer slightly less deadband..The one thing I do like about the shimanos is the lever shape but now that I have been back on avids for awhile I am used to them again...

Was planning on going with Guides or at least buying Guide levers and keeping my calipers as they are the same..that would hopefully solve my fade issue and give me less deadband. Also the lever appears to be more shapely...

Before I pull the trigger I am curious about Hopes...last time I squeezed a hope brake was circa 2003 and they left allot to be desired...wondering how the new ones, particularly the tech3 v4's are...basically looking for lots of power and good modulation...anybody have any time on them? These are going on a 6" bike but it is my dh bike and gets ridden as such

edit: checking the weights bolting an extra pound to my bike doesn't sound appealing..pretty heavy at 550gs

 

[ianjenn]

They are sick. Some of the best modulation you can find. They can almost be adjusted to hit the bars. I weigh 212 or so and essentially have drug them for 1/2 of Tunnel with no heat issues!

I had the generation before with steel braided lines.

 

[marshalolson]

Just at fwiw I pulled zee brakes off my trail bike to try the guides (with metal pads). Super stoked. Equivent stopping power, prefer the feel. Only 150mi or so, but no fade or weirdness, even after cutting lines and bleeding 1/2 way in.

 

[Carraig042]

I have had the E4's on my trail bike for several months and love them. They have lots of modulation and power. They are a slightly smaller than the V4 and lighter in weight.

I have had a set of the v2 on my dh bike for about 3 years and they have been flawless and have know needed 2 bleeds. Solid overall performers.

Brett

 

[Dirk77]

I just ordered a set of the hope tech 3 v4s for my dh bike. I have zee's now and I'm sick of the grab and lurch! Mainly on the steep and loose terrain. I am really hopeing for modulation and smooth power delivery. Haha

 

[Mo(n)arch]

Just at fwiw I pulled zee brakes off my trail bike to try the guides (with metal pads). Super stoked. Equivent stopping power, prefer the feel. Only 150mi or so, but no fade or weirdness, even after cutting lines and bleeding 1/2 way in.

The OP is already running X0 Trails, so he only needs the new levers as the calipers are the same. I'd say try it! Maybe it does the trick and costs a lot less then new Hopes.

 

[Electric_City]

I got them cause my old codes were shot. I didn't want to be stuck re-bleeding brakes several times a month, so I avoided Avid. But Shimanos feel wasn't for me either. I bought the Tech 3 V4 brakes and love them. They bleed super easy. Why other companies don't do it this way, I'll never know. I'm no light weight guy and I can tell you that these brakes are by far the most consistent brakes I've used so far. When you buy them, they come with 2 sets of pads (sintered and organic I think). Unlike Avid, they don't have all those washers and shit. If you're running the rotor size your bike is set up for (ie. Fox 40's are set up for 8" rotors) you simply bolt the caliper on, squeeze the lever till the pads touch and tighten the bolts down and you're done! Don't get caught up in the weight thing. You won't notice it. Besides, the Avid G3 disc is 244g and the Hope 2 piece is 166g. Kinda surprising isn't it?

 

[yd35]

Most of the weight from the Tech 3 V4 system is from the braided hoses that come stock. If you're super concerned, you could always change the brake lines or you could get the Tech 3 E4 set with the stock hoses. Bit less power, but lighter.

I'd also consider the new Magura stuff, either the MT5 or MT7. Light, good modulation, gobs of power.

 

[Sandwich]

Formulas on the DH bike. Not as much bite nor power as the XTs nor m810s I had previously, but WAY more modulation. I don't notice the difference because I guess I'm not that much of a queen, but you can drag the brakes WAY more without the sudden grab that XTs give. I have the T1? i think.

If it were up to me I'd be back on shimanos, but these work well enough that I'm not crying. I like my brakes to be on when it's on, for DH. Less so for AM, but it's manageable.

 

[Udi]

Which pads are you running Sandwich?
I really like the T1 (are yours the T1 or T1s?) but found most pads other than the genuine ones seem to kill stopping power, though I did find the EBC Red was very bitey and gave a more consistent bite (than sintered) right until they wore out. Can't find them anymore. A few of my friends changed from XT to T1 and everyone seems to agree the Formulas have more power, but it does seem to come on less instantly which I wish they had a bit more of. Less impressive in the carpark but more on the track was my experience. I'm running the alloy-backed TruckerCo pads off ebay at the moment which have been pretty good so far.

I just noticed that the new RO for 2015 is just a T1 lever on the RO oval caliper though which I think might be a good combo for power vs. weight, @buckoW any thoughts? I've got the parts to make that combo here, think I'm going to try it. Wonder if the lever throw will grow substantially though.

Also has anyone been on the Guide Ultimate for a while? I was hoping with all the marketing that the Guides would have less dead-stroke but the RSC still has a tonne of stroke before engagement even with the throw cranked shut. Wondering if the Ultimate is any better. I'm done with Shimano brakes after experiencing a tonne of inconsistencies and unreliabilities with the current 785/820, was hoping SRAM might bring a winner to the table.

 

[Sandwich]

T1S. Sounds like it actually has another (cheaper) master cylinder, so that might be the source of the (lack of) power. They feel great, but it's the first time I've had to two finger brake in quite some time.

I am fat though, and somehow feel quite a bit faster on the new bike than anything prior, so that might be why I'm right on the edge of "enough" power.

 

[HAB]

Which pads are you running Sandwich?
I really like the T1 (are yours the T1 or T1s?) but found most pads other than the genuine ones seem to kill stopping power, though I did find the EBC Red was very bitey and gave a more consistent bite (than sintered) right until they wore out.

I had great luck with Goodridge metal pads on my The Ones.

 

[Electric_City]

My conclusion is that Hope needs more trademarks.
Brakes that WORK®
Easy to bleed®
One finger at a time® stopping power
These brakes have excellent modulation too. But people seem to be on this Shimano /Avid wagon I used to be on.

-I hate bleeding my avids every other ride. I'm going Shimano!
-I hate Shimano! There's no consistent bite point. I'm going Avid!
-Try Formula. They're not as powerful, but they work great!

I think Hope needs more advertising and trademarks to rub in our faces.
-

 

[Udi]

I think Hope needs more advertising and trademarks to rub in our faces.

I've got one.
They're heavy as f*ck so if they don't work you can just unscrew a caliper, drop it like an anchor, and hold on as you come to a grinding halt. ®

 

[Electric_City]

If you already have a 38lb DH bike, you sure as hell aren't going to notice the now heavier 38.25lb bike, but I think you'll notice nice, working, powerful brakes.

Plus they're still made in England. Not china or Taiwan.

 

[Jm_]

I'd wait for the FQ-440 MR edition.

 

[Dirk77]

Hope tech 3 v4

• Dirk77
• Aug 17, 2015

I only bought them cause there red and matchy matchy! I hope they work!

 

[Kanye West]

Yeah brakes are one place where I will take a weight penalty for performance and reliability any day of the week...


Besides, the weight difference from a "heavy" brake system to the lightest reasonable DH brake system is....basically nothing.

A 1 minute Google search yields a measured weight of 482g for the Hope Tech Evo V4 brake, including the rotor and mounting hardware. Rotors are anywhere from 180g-210g measured on SickLines, which puts the weight of the lever/line/caliper at...less than a Shimano Saint system, and same as a Code. And that's WITH a SS line...they're available without the SS line as well. No idea what that saves.

The Formulas are lighter, but they're also designed by a bunch of I-talians, uncomfortable, expensive and difficult to get parts for, and don't include the SS line, and have basically no fluid capacity (I recall reading that they didn't have enough fluid in the reservoir to account for a full cycle of pad wear without having to be topped off).


So the weight is basically a wash with the Hopes, all things being equal. They're more expensive than the Shimanos, although probably the same as the Formula or cheaper in some instances. Shimano's are about the only other reasonable option due to parts availability and ease of service, but don't have nearly the same quality in feel as the Hope's. Avid's are SRAM products.

 

[Udi]

Besides, the weight difference from a "heavy" brake system to the lightest reasonable DH brake system is....basically nothing.

The Formulas are lighter, but they're also designed by a bunch of I-talians, uncomfortable, expensive and difficult to get parts for, and don't include the SS line, and have basically no fluid capacity (I recall reading that they didn't have enough fluid in the reservoir to account for a full cycle of pad wear without having to be topped off).

The fluid capacity issue was in 2010 (they updated the volume in 2011) so you're only like 5 years behind the ball there. The SS line is just dead weight as someone else pointed out, there's no need for that these days with every brand's kevlar line being perfectly capable of not expanding and feeling mushy.

I actually think Hope make good brakes (I've happily run their hubs for years too) but I also appreciate Formula's optimisation, for example their lever bodies and calipers are all cold forged so you get far higher strength to weight ratios, without an actual reflection on braking power - which is still merely a function of the combination of hydraulic and mechanical leverage. Heavier brakes don't magically translate into power or reliability.

Just FYI the weight difference in brakes that are comparable in power:

22% lighter, and the new RO has a lighter lever, that's not really "a wash". I'd design the levers differently, the new ones are a bit better, but ultimately this is MTB (not motocross) and optimisation is important, especially in the recent Enduro wave.

Personally I'm of the opinion that weight like this is better invested in larger diameter rotors, but the lack of demand has driven away development in that area sadly. Formula's lightest 203mm rotor (which as the same braking track surface design and area as their other rotors) weighs 142g, which to me says you could have a 220mm rotor for ~200g with an 8.4% increase in braking power with ZERO effect on lever throw and reliability, things that a lot of modern powerful brakes fail at.

To throw some numbers around, that 72g weight saving per end would translate into being able to run ~225mm rotors. Run the numbers and see which brake is more powerful and dissipates heat better at that point.

 

[Kanye West]

I recall the recent models also being victim of the reservoir volume issue.

I can't find the material type for the Formulas. 2024 for Hopes (way higher fatigue strength and STW ratio than normal 6061, slightly higher elastic modulus).

Also the Hopes are available with standard lines - the SS line is just an option (I think, at least it was a year or so ago). Again, not apples to apples. Now I'm curious how much the SS line adds...

All brake lines are stiff when new. Once they wear out and start flexing, that's where the SS lines shine. You'll never notice a difference comparing two new brakes, but if you replace a worn out old hose with a SS line - big difference.

I've checked out the newer Formula levers. Yeah, light and skimpy, but still prefer the more solid feeling Hope lever blades. That's just personal preference.


End of the day, for 70g at each end of my bike which sees resort use only, I'd gladly accept that weight penalty to not have to deal with Formula brakes. I've owned probably.....6 or 7 sets over the years? Every one of them has been a gigantic pain in the ass, unreliable, inconsistent, and Formula is a bitch of a company to work with. Just my experience with them. Not a peep of trouble with the Hopes, and not a peep of trouble with my Gen 1 Saints that I run on my trail bike.

 

[Jm_]

The formula brakes that came on my specialized were damn near as bad as Avids. They would pump up downhill, despite re-bleeds. The seals eventually went, possibly due to the fade and lack of power, which required pulling the levers crazy hard. I knew this was the case when a bleed wouldn't last more than a ride and fluid started to show up externally. As was said in this thread, they weren't really designed for heavy use. I know they've marketed plenty of DH brakes and brakes for aggressive riding, but the heat capacity just can't be very good with the minimal design approach. I've been on XTs now for a while on this bike and just like thousands of other riders, I can't ever see a reason to change, they work. To be fair, I had some good hope brakes too and I run two hope hubs, but when deciding between some bling blue lightweight hopes for my fatbike and M987/M9000 XTR, I went with XTR due to the ease of parts, support, and dead reliability of the XTs. I had some Hope Mono M4s back in the day that I could never get any power out of. Still not sure to this day, as I tried all sorts of things like new pads, bleeds, etc.

 

[Udi]

Been on mine since 2011, 3 countries, easily thousands of runs, and one seal replacement (in 2012) on rear caliper, which they updated the seal design for. I didn't say every model was good, but neither are all Hopes. I think you'll find the two brands share their chequered past as Jm rightfully points out. Support for Formula everywhere I've been was (surprisingly, admittedly) awesome. I had a lever blade ordered overnight from Italy by the local distributor in Australia, and the seals within 2-3 days in Whistler.

I recall the recent models also being victim of the reservoir volume issue.

Which one? I was wearing T1 pads down to the backing and then taking the spring clips out to get the last bit out of them at Champery, on the same bleed. It's probably my favourite thing about them, trying the same on my M810s meant pushing the lever blade through the grip to stop. Anyway, the fluid always comes out crystal clear (unlike shimano) and without pieces of rubber (unlike avid). If I was building a frankenbrake I'd definitely consider Hope as at least in later years they seem to share these qualities, but having gutted both I still think Formula are much closer to the edge of optimisation on all fronts.

Also I still stand by the braided lines being a crock and have never noticed the change in expansion over time that you claim (on any brand of plastic hose - shimano, avid, formula, hope). Totally dead weight in my book, and I used to put Goodridge braided hose kits on all my brakes. It was useful back in the day when some hoses sucked (funnily enough it was still other braided lines that sucked), but those days are long gone. Even if it did matter though, hose flex would only affect throw distance, not force - unless the lever bottomed out as a result of it. Waste of weight and money in this age but whatever floats your boat.

Like I said though, reliability and power aren't direct functions of weight. Just because your bike is only for resorts and you don't care about 70g, doesn't mean that everyone else is the same. Like I said, better weight optimisation means you can put that 70g into increased braking force from larger rotors, increased force consistency with finned pads like Shimano, etc. Optimisation benefits everyone, and as such I think Hope's CNC-only deal is antiquated. They're obviously doing the best they can with it, but their lightweight Enduro brake is still heavier than Formula's full-blown DH brake (which has substantially more power) so clearly mfg process is a limit. Hope are behind in that regard compared to both Avid and Shimano too for whatever it's worth, and I think more advanced manufacturing processes would bring them into line WITHOUT actually sacrificing reliability or performance in any way which is the part you're missing.

This is like when mass-produced-in-taiwan Specialized was forging ISCG mounts as one piece with their BB shells, while people with US-made Turners and Santa Cruz were whining that ISCG mounts weren't designed to take bashguard forces and breaking off as a result. The US wank brands were welding on a crappy machined piece while Spec were using beautiful forgings that tapered the mount to match the bending moment. Material means nothing without the process to back it up.

Anyway Formula aren't without their faults, particularly the range of reach adjustment for those with smaller hands, and lever geometry in general. Funnily enough Avid lead the game on that front, so I think everyone has something to learn from everyone here and there certainly isn't a perfect option yet.

If you already have a 38lb DH bike, you sure as hell aren't going to notice the now heavier 38.25lb bike, but I think you'll notice nice, working, powerful brakes.

Plus they're still made in England. Not china or Taiwan.

I think this might have been a thing people said in like 1999.

 

[Electric_City]

Why? Cause I'd rather give money to a country that we're allies with? My frame is made in Canada too! I'm a machinist and can lose my job to china at any time. I'd rather support our buddy's than china.

I will admit that Formulas are better though since they've successfully worked on 3 continents! My Hopes have only been tested in North America so far! #hopetheyreintercontinental
#formulaintercontinentalbrakes

 

[Udi]

I do think patriotic and employment reasons are valid.

My point was though - what makes a brake powerful or reliable isn't how heavy it is, and leaving a bunch of surplus material on a part because you didn't use the most optimal manufacturing method (and thus didn't have a choice) doesn't mystically translate to power or reliability. It just means the part could be better weight-optimised - once that's done you can either accept that reward, or put the weight back into *actually* increasing the performance, eg. bigger rotors. Not directly having a go at Hope, I like the company and their products still.

 

[Electric_City]

Ok, I'm fine with that. Point taken.

 

[MickeyMetzDutch]

Been riding my e4's for 2 months.

Amazing modulation and crazy stopping power either with one or two fingers.

As a noob, i brake A LOT, and sufferd from no fading at all.