[rockwool]

I'm looking to buy a new car and having a hard time deciding. In no particular order I'm looking at :

VW Passat or Jetta
Hyundai Sonata
Subaru imprezza
Toyota Camary
Scion tC
Honda Accord

I've driven the VW Jetta SE with connivence and sunroof, and I really liked it. When I read edmunds and consumer reports the choice worries me because they seem to believe it has below average reliability. Reliability is important because I won't have a lot of money due to a divorce and going on disability. I've been to the Hyundai dealership and at least looked at and sat in the Sonata, and it's a nice car, consumer reports gives it a average in drivetrain reliability and better in most else. I've been in a Subaru and it's a nice car, and rated as being average or better reliability except the interior.

So I need some help from the car fanatic monkeys. Tell me what you know about any of the cars above as far as reliability and ease of work, etc.

Thanks!

Haven't read the tread but here are my sugestions:

First, in your situation I'd (plainly speaking) loose my ego and go for a used car.
Second, I would definately get a diesel engined car with lower maintenance need, overall costs and ~20% less fuel consumption and stress on people of oil producing poor nations!
Then, out of those models but a few ears old - or even better 10 years old - I would list pros/cons like this:

Toyota Camry:
Best build quality (according to statistics), but the fuglyestestest brand ever.

Subaru Impreza:
Close runner up quality, nice sounding boxxer engine, but plastic interior, the boxxer is thirstier and even more so the 4wd that's 150-200kg extra on your wallet and nature. Worlds only boxxer diesel engines!

Hyundai Sonata:
Very good build quality and warranties, and (if I'm not misstaken) excellent Italian designed common-rail diesels.

Honda Accord:
Very good build quality and suspension construction/traction. Not a Toyota! But any diesels?

Scion TC:
Dunno nothing about Scions, but for their original styling.

VeeDubs (are best kept slammed):
Claim they have the best build quality in Europe but the 98-00 figures I've seen show that Opel (a GM brand - same as Buick Insignia?) is better and right up there with Honda and Mitsubitshi.
Although they have excellent diesels (just like Opel who licence Italian diesels), and WILL RUN ON WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil, or fresch if you prefer). Do a search for "WVO forum".

 

[H8R]

Didn't read the thread but if you do a search for impreza you'll see my review.

Bout 1500 miles on ours so far including a 11 hour road trip. Conclusion: my favorite car. Ever.


It rails in corners and cruises smooth on the highway. Mileage was in the low 30'a even after blasting down i5 at 80+ and getting stuck in LA traffic.

 

[H8R]

Word of warning on the impreza - you need to keep an eye on the speedometer to avoid those "oh fvck i'm almost doing 90" moments. It's that smooth and quiet.

 

[Toshi]

Haven't read the tread but here are my sugestions:

First, in your situation I'd (plainly speaking) loose my ego and go for a used car.
Second, I would definately get a diesel engined car with lower maintenance need, overall costs and ~20% less fuel consumption and stress on people of oil producing poor nations!

The only diesels we get are in pickup trucks and Euro cars. The only non-luxury euro cars with diesels, in turn, are VWs. Sad but true.

 

[HardtailHack]

So people are talking about the standard Subaru Imperza? I haven't like the look of an Impreza for about 6years or so, the last ones just looked like a Kia and the new one looks half abortion half Kia-

My old man has a 06 3L Outback and it is rubbish, bad seats radio and climate you can't use without looking at it and the extra length of the 6cyl puts the cats straight over the inner CV's. If you do any towing the boots get cooked then the grease sprays your exhaust, also his is one of the ones with no caster so the steering doesn't self centre unless you buy an anti lift kit.

I am really surprised to see VW getting such a bad wrap they come a long way with their reliability but the Euro cars still flog out engine mounts and suspension bushes quicker than the Asian stuff. Volvo are still crap so don't bother looking at them, very comfy but their cars and trucks have weird electrical problems that dealers say they have never seen before.

 

[syadasti]

The new Mazda CX5 got a ton of good reviews and gets similar mileage to the Impreza and Focus hatchbacks (drivetrains are also comparable but with more cargo room in CX5), I saw one on the road yesterday.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2013-mazda-cx-5-1.htm

If you are checking out the Sonata, the Altima would be worth a look too. 2013 Fusion sounds nice if you aren't in a hurry.

 

[rockwool]

The only diesels we get are in pickup trucks and Euro cars. The only non-luxury euro cars with diesels, in turn, are VWs. Sad but true.

Yeah, I noticed that this past autumn when I was searching for modern diesel engines to make my mates Suburban a little more veggie:

http://www.garaget.org/?car=263278&image=2493611

Apprarantly only heavier pickup trucks are equipped with diesels, while the lighter ones are only equipped with gassers. This means that one cannot do a direct comparison between a gasser and a diesel engined car of the same model. Thus, the superiority of the diesel (power/torque output vs. a same sized gasser while still being ~20% more fuel efficient) is ontologically veiled from the greater public.

Contextualize that into the general politics and you'll have a hard time comming up with a reason other than that it's ideologiacal; i.e. "the market". For sure, Big Oil is very happy with this policy.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Look into a Certified Used Honda. I bought an '08 Element with an extended warranty in July that was in pristine condition. Honda is super anal about their requirements and inspection points for the certified cars. Going this route saved about $7k-8k over buying new.

 

[rockwool]

Hey Reactor,

get one of these and you might never bother with another car again. I owned one for +2 years that had +400.000 miles on it and it was such a solid built car, hardly had to fix anything on it. Everytime I parked it or passed it I hade to turn around and look at it, no sh*t, it's design never bored me!

There are two 300TD Turbo's in rediculous shape out on ebay right now. Ask the people on Benzworld.org about them. The W123 was the next to last MB built with the old Mercedes goal to be the worlds best car, no matter how much they spent on the project!

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?_nkw=300+td&_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m282

 

[syadasti]

Contextualize that into the general politics and you'll have a hard time comming up with a reason other than that it's ideologiacal; i.e. "the market". For sure, Big Oil is very happy with this policy.

Actually it has to do with supply, the fact its dirtier (even "clean" diesels), and the perception of the older demographics from bad diesel drivetrains from the big 3 many decades ago.

The breakdown of typical crude oil products, this article has a good summary (distillate fuel oils include home heating and diesel fuel), an important consideration in diesel supply:

http://numero57.net/2008/03/20/carbon-dioxide-emissions-per-barrel-of-crude/

Random Google result shows a detailed breakdown of average crude oil yields:
http://www.greensborogasprices.com/crude_products.aspx

What Does One Barrel Of Crude Oil Make?
One barrel of crude oil contains 42 gallons
About 46% of each barrel of crude oil is refined into automobile gasoline
In the US and Canada an average of 3 gallons of crude oil are consumed per person each day
The US imports about 50% of its required crude oil and about 50% of that amount comes from OPEC countries

Product Refined Gallons/Barrel
Gasoline 19.3
Distillate Fuel Oil (Inc. Home Heating and Diesel Fuel) 9.83
Kerosene Type Jet Fuel 4.24
Residual Fuel Oil 2.10
Petroleum Coke 2.10
Liquified Refinery Gases 1.89
Still Gas 1.81
Asphalt and Road Oil 1.13
Petrochemical Feed Supplies 0.97
Lubricants 0.46
Kerosene 0.21
Waxes 0.04
Aviation Fuel 0.04
Other Products 0.34
Processing Gain 2.47
Source: EIA March 2004 Data

Its not as responsible of a choice compared to a hybrid, especially a plug-in or EV. Both hybrids and diesels cost thousands more than gasoline drivetrains and not as many service stations carry diesel (this has gotten better in recent years but still a valid concern). Various makers including Mazda and GM are rumored to be bringing diesel passenger cars back to the US soon but it most drivetrain experts don't expect much for diesels.

NASA has said methane and black carbon (incomplete combustion particulates from sources including diesel) are the most significant pollutants to be addressed, not CO2:

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/interactive-charts.html

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/climate_law_institute/global_warming_what_how_why/black_carbon/index.html

Clean diesels might not be as clean either:
http://edoc.mpg.de/366470

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/05/03/study-modern-clean-diesels-not-that-green-black-carbon-overloo/

And the most responsible road users will pay the biggest price with these "clean" diesels:

CYCLING to work may seem the healthy option, but a study has shown that people riding in cities inhale tens of millions of toxic nanoparticles with every breath, at least five times more than drivers or pedestrians.

The research involved fitting cyclists with devices that could count the particles, mostly emitted by car exhausts, in the air they were breathing.

It showed that urban concentrations of nanoparticles, which measure just a few millionths of a millimetre, could reach several hundred thousand in a cubic centimetre of air.

The particles, when inhaled, have been linked to heart disease and respiratory problems.

Because they are exerting themselves, cyclists breathe harder and faster than other road users. The study found that they suck in about 1,000 cubic cm with each breath, meaning they may inhale tens of millions of the particles each time they fill their lungs, and billions during a whole journey.

“This is the first time anyone has counted the particles while also measuring people’s breathing during city commuting. It showed that cyclists can inhale an astonishing number of pollutant particles in one journey,” said Luc Int Panis of the transport research institute at Hasselt University in Belgium, who led the study."

 

[Toshi]

Apprarantly only heavier pickup trucks are equipped with diesels, while the lighter ones are only equipped with gassers. This means that one cannot do a direct comparison between a gasser and a diesel engined car of the same model. Thus, the superiority of the diesel (power/torque output vs. a same sized gasser while still being ~20% more fuel efficient) is ontologically veiled from the greater public.

While it is true that half ton and compact pickups don't come with diesels here, one can certainly buy an otherwise identical 3/4 or 1 ton pickup in gas or diesel flavor. 20% better than **** fuel economy is only slightly easier on the wallet.

 

[HardtailHack]

Get the Merc then go drifting-

 

[Reactor]

Honda Fit?

I'll add it to my list.

 

[Reactor]

Thanks for all the advice!

 

[Pesqueeb]

Hey Reactor,

get one of these and you might never bother with another car again. I owned one for +2 years that had +400.000 miles on it and it was such a solid built car, hardly had to fix anything on it. Everytime I parked it or passed it I hade to turn around and look at it, no sh*t, it's design never bored me!

There are two 300TD Turbo's in rediculous shape out on ebay right now. Ask the people on Benzworld.org about them. The W123 was the next to last MB built with the old Mercedes goal to be the worlds best car, no matter how much they spent on the project!

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?_nkw=300+td&_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m282

I approve this message. I'd love to have one of those old things.

 

[stevew]

i seem to remember suspension bits/pieces being expensive as sh!t for those things.

 

[H8R]

There is a place in southern California that will sell you a wrx boosted to over 500 HP, still street legal. I saw some vids on youtube. I'd go that route. Celebrate divorce.

 

[Trailslug46]

I love my WRX. 24mpg @285hp. Hands down the best handling rig I've had to date.

 

[woodsguy]

If you want reliable your best bet is probably a Honda. My 2005 CRV has 140,000 miles and the only repair I had to make was a rusted alignment bolt. You could probably pick up a used Fit for little money.

 

[rockwool]

Actually it has to do with supply, the fact its dirtier (even "clean" diesels), and the perception of the older demographics from bad diesel drivetrains from the big 3 many decades ago.

The breakdown of typical crude oil products, this article has a good summary (distillate fuel oils include home heating and diesel fuel), an important consideration in diesel supply:

http://numero57.net/2008/03/20/carbon-dioxide-emissions-per-barrel-of-crude/

Random Google result shows a detailed breakdown of average crude oil yields:
http://www.greensborogasprices.com/crude_products.aspx

Its not as responsible of a choice compared to a hybrid, especially a plug-in or EV. Both hybrids and diesels cost thousands more than gasoline drivetrains and not as many service stations carry diesel (this has gotten better in recent years but still a valid concern). Various makers including Mazda and GM are rumored to be bringing diesel passenger cars back to the US soon but it most drivetrain experts don't expect much for diesels.

NASA has said methane and black carbon (incomplete combustion particulates from sources including diesel) are the most significant pollutants to be addressed, not CO2:

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/interactive-charts.html

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/climate_law_institute/global_warming_what_how_why/black_carbon/index.html

Clean diesels might not be as clean either:
http://edoc.mpg.de/366470

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/05/03/study-modern-clean-diesels-not-that-green-black-carbon-overloo/

And the most responsible road users will pay the biggest price with these "clean" diesels:[/QUOTE]

Ouff, too much **** maan. None of your articles mentions the pollutions caused by wars. Nor the consequences of war on people. Those articles are dikotomized when they don't see ALL aspects and also ethnocentric when they don't see the problem out of the eyes of suffering people.

For another thing, between 1990 and 2010 the carbon dioxides (CO2) emissions of a Chevy diesel engine has reduced to 0.2% of what it originally was. Particulate matter (PM) reduced to 0.01%. This is just an example and your articles do a non existing dicotomy when they don't examine the full cycle when applied in reality.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/duramax/LMLDuramaxc.htm


Is it possible the greensboro link is faulting because, if I'm not mistaken, diesel is a less refined product than gas and thus closer to crude. Does a more refined product more than double in volume? Sounds weird to me as I know the higher the octane, the higher up it is skimmed. Diesel should then be the bulk below.

Your infrastructural problems are political; ideological. Don't reproduce the bipartisan system at next election.

Hybrids might be better but I've read alot of negative about the environmental cycle of the Toyota Prius. Diesel engines are tougher as such and to boot, diesel contains more energy as a fuel. They can be driven on our waste wegetable oils; no need for exploitation of nature - with all the carbon produced there, from tar sand not the least - nor its local inhabitants.


EDIT: This documentary shows a bit of the equilibrium from a place that never was invaded - and had depleted uranium (DU) lying around - but still..
Film technically probably the best made documentary I've seen as the arguments of the plaintiffs and Chevron are weighed against each other in a non manipulative way; the narrative isn't the directors alone.

While it is true that half ton and compact pickups don't come with diesels here, one can certainly buy an otherwise identical 3/4 or 1 ton pickup in gas or diesel flavor. 20% better than **** fuel economy is only slightly easier on the wallet.

You must have a big wallet then. =)
But the're so much to it than our own wallets, it all is a whole as were all a part of this worlds equilibrium.

Get the Merc then go drifting-

Yeah, I've seen that car before but I think he has repainted it in beautiful brown metallic hood and roof, and pearl white sides (doesn't come out well in the begining of the clip).

 

[rockwool]

I approve this message. I'd love to have one of those old things.

=)

Another good thing with classic cars is that you don't lust after next years model..

i seem to remember suspension bits/pieces being expensive as sh!t for those things.

True, it's the dampers of the self leveling system (SLS) in the rear that's pricey ($500-700?). But when I and 3 friends took weekend trips with 2 bikes on the roof, 2 on the hitch, 2 dogs and a boot full of gear it never handled worse because it was draging its ass in the asphalt. Also, my SLS hydrolics never leaked so they're not a consern in that sence. A well maintained used car is key and saves alot of money compared to new stuff.

 

[Toshi]

For another thing, between 1990 and 2010 the carbon dioxides (CO2) emissions of a Chevy diesel engine has reduced to 0.2% of what it originally was.

Hybrids might be better but I've read alot of negative about the environmental cycle of the Toyota Prius. Diesel engines are tougher as such and to boot, diesel contains more energy as a fuel. They can be driven on our waste wegetable oils; no need for exploitation of nature - with all the carbon produced there, from tar sand not the least - nor its local inhabitants.

1) You probably mean carbon monoxide (CO), not carbon dioxide (CO2). CO2 scales linearly with how much fuel is burnt, and between 1990 and 2010 Chevy diesels have perhaps improved 10% in their fuel economy, not 99.8%. Needless to say, CO2 is the greenhouse gas, even though CO and other smog-forming pollutants are noxious as well.

2) Diesel contains more BTUs per gallon than gasoline, sure. It's also priced about that much higher (if not more thanks to the vagaries of also being used for home heating in many regions of the US, mine unfortunately included).

3) WVO is unsustainable on any more than a hobbyist's scale, and will royally **** up the emissions systems on any 2008-onward diesel in any case.

4) The negative press you've read about hybrids probably was the CNW "dust to dust" study that I've looked into with many a post. Search and ye shall find the truth.

 

[hieronymusbosch]

Damn Reactor, sorry to hear the bad news. Sent ya a PM.

–stinkyboy

 

[Reactor]

Well, the WRX does hold a certain appeal. Maybe I'll ad some sportier vehicles,to my list.

 

[Da Peach]

WRX is fun, but $$$ compared to where you started...

 

[Reactor]

WRX is fun, but $$$ compared to where you started...

I was TRYING to be conservative. I'm not sure when or even if I can work again so I wanted to hold as much money as possible back.

 

[jonKranked]

rockwool - the interior's on the (redesigned) '12 impreza's are a big improvement over previous models. I'm VERY happy with mine.

 

[rockwool]

1) You probably mean carbon monoxide (CO), not carbon dioxide (CO2). CO2 scales linearly with how much fuel is burnt, and between 1990 and 2010 Chevy diesels have perhaps improved 10% in their fuel economy, not 99.8%. Needless to say, CO2 is the greenhouse gas, even though CO and other smog-forming pollutants are noxious as well.

2) Diesel contains more BTUs per gallon than gasoline, sure. It's also priced about that much higher (if not more thanks to the vagaries of also being used for home heating in many regions of the US, mine unfortunately included).

3) WVO is unsustainable on any more than a hobbyist's scale, and will royally **** up the emissions systems on any 2008-onward diesel in any case.

4) The negative press you've read about hybrids probably was the CNW "dust to dust" study that I've looked into with many a post. Search and ye shall find the truth.

1) Sh*t, I was thinking about NOx - what ever that is in words... =)

2) That's where WVO (or SVO - Straight Vegetable Oil) comes in. If Reactor has a garage (preferably) then he can collect his own used resturant oil and filter it for a few days. Hey Reactor, I hear Mexican and Asian resturants use high grade oil! =)

3)Dunno about 2008 and later as I was really into this back in 06-07. One has to check with Golden Fuel and those other companies. For instance, LoveCraft builds are cheap but insuficient for cooler weather.

4) I could be wrong, of course as I never really botherd with them. I hope I'm wrong. But it just hit me, the ambassador of Bolivia was at an open seminar (together with Swedens representative at COP16 in Mexico), and he said they fear that their high altitude (salty) desert will be destroyed by (nickle, cadmium?) mining companies. The equilibrium of western Bolivia will come out of balance just like that place in Equador shown in the documentary Crude. Watch it!

rockwool - the interior's on the (redesigned) '12 impreza's are a big improvement over previous models. I'm VERY happy with mine.

I believe you, a good friend of mine owned one back in 98-00 or so. He loved it because it was so well built it came out cheap to own. Having a fun daily ride shouldn't be under estimated! Reactor might be to young to appreciate a sober interior like the one on W123 Mercs anyway.

But if you're out for a budget cruiser, a $10K 300TD Turbo will give you great pleasure.

 

[syadasti]

VW fraud makes the death of diesel even more obvious now. It's dead and VW deserves everything they're hit with and more.

Actually it has to do with supply, the fact its dirtier (even "clean" diesels), and the perception of the older demographics from bad diesel drivetrains from the big 3 many decades ago.

The breakdown of typical crude oil products, this article has a good summary (distillate fuel oils include home heating and diesel fuel), an important consideration in diesel supply:

http://numero57.net/2008/03/20/carbon-dioxide-emissions-per-barrel-of-crude/

Random Google result shows a detailed breakdown of average crude oil yields:
http://www.greensborogasprices.com/crude_products.aspx



Its not as responsible of a choice compared to a hybrid, especially a plug-in or EV. Both hybrids and diesels cost thousands more than gasoline drivetrains and not as many service stations carry diesel (this has gotten better in recent years but still a valid concern). Various makers including Mazda and GM are rumored to be bringing diesel passenger cars back to the US soon but it most drivetrain experts don't expect much for diesels.

NASA has said methane and black carbon (incomplete combustion particulates from sources including diesel) are the most significant pollutants to be addressed, not CO2:

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/interactive-charts.html

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/climate_law_institute/global_warming_what_how_why/black_carbon/index.html

Clean diesels might not be as clean either:
http://edoc.mpg.de/366470

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/05/03/study-modern-clean-diesels-not-that-green-black-carbon-overloo/

And the most responsible road users will pay the biggest price with these "clean" diesels:

 

[syadasti]

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/24/443053672/how-a-little-lab-in-west-virginia-caught-volkswagens-big-cheat

In none of their road tests could they get their two Volkswagen cars to meet the claims, even though a BMW they tested did fine. Very early on it was pretty clear to the scientists that something was wrong."

...

"So does he feel vindicated?

"I think vindicated is the wrong word. I feel satisfaction that we have contributed to something that will have a major impact on public health," he says. "But vindication implies that we are out to get somebody. And we weren't. We had no idea that this was out there."

 

[CBJ]

I wish there were the same rules to trucks on the roads. All of it makes me wonder how healthy it really is riding my bike to work in NYC.

 

[dan-o]

I wish there were the same rules to trucks on the roads. All of it makes me wonder how healthy it really is riding my bike to work in NYC.

Newer heavy duty trucks now have particulate filters and DEF systems that go a long way to reducing emissions. Doesn't help with older vehicles but should help going forward.

 

[syadasti]

Newer heavy duty trucks now have particulate filters and DEF systems that go a long way to reducing emissions. Doesn't help with older vehicles but should help going forward.

If you recall in the thread, that's actually worse. "Clean" diesels are more toxic:

http://edoc.mpg.de/366470

We evaluated, in vitro, the inflammatory and cytotoxic potential of soot particles from current low-emission (Euro IV) diesel engines toward human peripheral blood monocytederived macrophage cells. The result is surprising. At the same mass concentration, soot particles produced under lowemission conditions exhibit amuchhigher toxic and inflammatory potential than particles from an old diesel engine operating under black smoke conditions. This effect is assigned to the defective surface structure of Euro IV diesel soot, rendering it highly active. Our findings indicate that the reduction of soot emission in terms of mass does not automatically lead to a reduction of the toxic effects toward humans when the structure and functionality of the soot is changed, and thereby the biological accessibility and inflammatory potential of soot is increased.

 

[CBJ]

I am screwed.