[JohnE]

http://www.bikemag.com/gear/reviewed-kitsbow-soft-shell-am-shorts/

So I click on this, as I try to be a good Monkey and all, get to reading...yeahyeayeah, I see what you did there, sounds nice...and then I see the price. $269 FOR A PAIR OF SHORTS THAT WILL BE SHREDDED, BLED ON, SNOTTED ON AND QUITE POSSIBLY SHAT ON? Has it come to this, really?

Price is not the only issue here...

The author blathers on about how "...I could walk into a club ride with mature riders and be taken seriously, and then walk into a shop with a young kid at the counter and be respected." Dude, if you are worried about people respecting you for your clothing you need to go back to HS. I suppose you left the price tag on the Gucci shorts too, so everyone would know how $$ they are...even though you got them comped to you so you would write an article extoling their virtues to the masses. The masses who are too poor (Or is it smart?) to pay so much FOR A PAIR OF CYCLING KNICKERS.

I get that the writer says "Kitsbow gear won’t magically make you a better rider, make your rides more fun, or do your taxes for you, but if you have the means to even consider them and are fed up looking like a children’s TV presenter, then Kitsbow is worth a look." Then why bother?

I love my Endura shorts...they keep my tingly little bits safe and secure during the ride and feel good and I think will last (almost) forever, but even they were expensive to my tastes and I shopped high and low for the best price on them. And normally I wear a Nike or Under Armour wicking layer under a long sleeved t-shirt (2 for $20 at the San Diego pier before I left Cali...) not so spendy... Yeah, I buy Fox stuff and run XT (Not XTR.) when possible, I like my carbon and titanium bits and bobs...but really, $269 for shorts? Are we/have we become that eliteist?

At this rate, I may as well become a golfer.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Ya know DirtMcGirt didn't have this problem, he rode in a banana hammock.

 

[JohnE]

The man was legend.

 

[jonKranked]

you think that stuff is expensive? look up assos. they make road stuff. they've got a winter hat that's $150, a $230 set of shoe covers, and a set of $650 bibs.

 

[syadasti]

Plus these overpriced items often aren't even made any place special to justify the prices...

POC Trabec Race Helmet
Made in China
$180

I would never buy one for $180. I got mine from an outlet for $70. The normal price shouldn't be any more than $90. It's a shell covered piece of foam made in China, give me a break.

 

[jonKranked]

Plus these overpriced items often aren't even made any place special to justify the prices...

POC Trabec Race Helmet
Made in China
$180

I would never buy one for $180. I got mine from an outlet for $70. The normal price shouldn't be any more than $90. It's a shell covered piece of foam made in China, give me a break.

the trabec race is the MIPS version i believe, which isn't your average "shell covered piece of foam" helmet. do your homework moron.

 

[syadasti]

the trabec race is the MIPS version i believe, which isn't your average "shell covered piece of foam" helmet. do your homework moron.

Do you homework moron, the MIPS is the next model up from the Trabec Race and retails for $230.

 

[jonKranked]

Do you homework moron, the MIPS is the next model up from the Trabec Race and retails for $230.

either way, i've never been able to comprehend the mentality of people like you who place the protection of one of their most important organs in the cheapest helmet they can get their hands on.

 

[syadasti]

either way, i've never been able to comprehend the mentality of people like you who place the protection of one of their most important organs in the cheapest helmet they can get their hands on.

Oh yeah, the Giro Xen and Xars I've been buy previously and this helmet are the cheapest helmets I could get my hands on, right. So what other brilliant points do you have about my equipment choice?

It doesn't justify these companies overpriced products. The average person should be able to afford a good helmet just like the average kid in football shouldn't be subject to high rates of brain damage just for the amusement and profit of others.

 

[jonKranked]

Oh yeah, the Giro Xen and Xars I've been buy previously and this helmet are the cheapest helmets I could get my hands on, right. So what other brilliant points do you have about my equipment choice?

It doesn't justify these companies overpriced products. The average person should be able to afford a good helmet just like the average kid in football shouldn't be subject to high rates of brain damage just for the amusement and profit of others.

have you ever worked in the design and manufacture of goods or products? a lot of people (you included apparently) grossly underestimate the amount of time and labor that goes into products like this.

 

[syadasti]

have you ever worked in the design and manufacture of goods or products? a lot of people (you included apparently) grossly underestimate the amount of time and labor that goes into products like this.

Yes, I've worked with a small appliance manufacturer for over 2 years now and I know exactly how much our models cost the factory, what we typically charge resellers, and how much stores charge for them.

 

[jonKranked]

Yes, I've worked with a small appliance manufacturer for over 2 years now and I know exactly how much our models cost the factory, what we typically charge resellers, and how much stores charge for them.

that's not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about the work that goes into R&D before the manufacturing line is even started up.

 

[binary visions]

I'm taking bets on how long before these two unzip their pants to compare sizes.

Over/under is currently at 30 minutes. Takers?

 

[syadasti]

that's not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about the work that goes into R&D before the manufacturing line is even started up

In that two year period our flagship model has been through 2 major redesigns. Our latest flagship cost the end-user 33% more than the previous version. It's been out in Asian markets for only a few months and the US model launches at the end of this month already is our second revision with significant changes to both the lid and the auger (made to win a major reseller account). R&D time certainly couldn't have been that long if we can setup a new mold for the lid and auger and ship by the end of this month...

 

[jonKranked]

I'm taking bets on how long before these two unzip their pants to compare sizes.

Over/under is currently at 30 minutes. Takers?

i can do better than 30 minutes. :reaches for micrometer:

 

[jonKranked]

In that two year period our flagship model has been through 2 major redesigns. Our latest flagship cost the end-user 33% more than the previous version. It's been out in Asian markets for only a few months and the US model launch at the end of this month already is our second revision with significant changes to both the lid and the auger (made to win a major reseller account). R&D time certainly couldn't have been that long if we can setup a new mold for the lid and auger and ship by the end of this month...

two years is nothing.

consider the fact that POC employs a team of nuerologists for consultation on the development and testing of their helmets.

 

[JohnE]

I'm taking bets on how long before these two unzip their pants to compare sizes.

Over/under is currently at 30 minutes. Takers?

I think it was done about 28 minutes before your proposal...

 

[syadasti]

two years is nothing.

consider the fact that POC employs a team of nuerologists for consultation on the development and testing of their helmets.

A significant improved version was promised in a 6 month time frame as an exclusive to win a contract too.

Our appliances are much more complex than say blenders which have significantly larger profit margins (see Ktec, Vitamix, Waring, etc with their commercial blenders marketed to consumers).

 

[jonKranked]

A significant improved version was promised in a 6 month time frame as an exclusive to win a contract too.

Our appliances are much more complex than say blenders which have significantly larger profit margins (see Ktec, Vitamix, Waring, etc with their commercial blenders marketed to consumers).

the products your dealing with may be more mechanically complex, but when talking about something like a helmet - whose sole purpose is to protect the main organ of the human nervous system - there's a LOT more performance testing and analysis that goes into it. which takes a LOT of time.

 

[HardtailHack]

Surely helmets are more, lets make something pretty and see if someone in China can mold it then see if it passes the tests(except maybe POC they don't have anything that looks decent). I have cracked enough helmets to know not to go for the ones wit the fancy channeled vents as they ****ing hurt when your head hits the ground. Bell fit perfectly when they were made in the US now they don't fit me at all, I got told the Flux fit weird shaped heads so I got one of them and love it $99 Aussie is cheap for a good helmet.

Oh yeah it's a shorts thread, I would never pay that much for shorts but they may have some fancy tech that will trickle down to the poor people shorts later on. If people pay are happy to pay silly money for product who cares? There are nice cheap shorts like Nema Podiums that rock for less than half the price for poor people like me.

 

[bizutch]

FYI, if POC had sold their helmet for a price comparable to the other brands WITH it's superior MIPS technology, they would have made more profit over all. Selling one helmet for $230 to make a $50 profit is harder to do than selling 5 $125 dollar helmets to make a similar profit.

I still say POC will eventually price itself out. TLD has better cosmetic appeal and can increase the functional safety aspects of their flagship helmets over time (possible quicker too) with more cash flow.

My theory beats math and science. Why? Because math and science can be disproven. My theory...will linger!

 

[jonKranked]

Surely helmets are more, lets make something pretty and see if someone in China can mold it then see if it passes the tests(except maybe POC they don't have anything that looks decent). I have cracked enough helmets to know not to go for the ones wit the fancy channeled vents as they ****ing hurt when your head hits the ground. Bell fit perfectly when they were made in the US now they don't fit me at all, I got told the Flux fit weird shaped heads so I got one of them and love it $99 Aussie is cheap for a good helmet.

Oh yeah it's a shorts thread, I would never pay that much for shorts but they may have some fancy tech that will trickle down to the poor people shorts later on. If people pay are happy to pay silly money for product who cares? There are nice cheap shorts like Nema Podiums that rock for less than half the price for poor people like me.

more vents = less surface area in contact with the material of the helmet that's designed to protect you. and with i suspect it's highly likely that companies have to offset the decrease in surface area with an increase in material density.

 

[jonKranked]

FYI, if POC had sold their helmet for a price comparable to the other brands WITH it's superior MIPS technology, they would have made more profit over all. Selling one helmet for $230 to make a $50 profit is harder to do than selling 5 $125 dollar helmets to make a similar profit.

I still say POC will eventually price itself out. TLD has better cosmetic appeal and can increase the functional safety aspects of their flagship helmets over time (possible quicker too) with more cash flow.

My theory beats math and science. Why? Because math and science can be disproven. My theory...will linger!

bike is a secondary business for POC, skiing/snowboarding is their primary business. and they are KILLING it there, even with the same pricing structure.


again, the pricing conundrum. people will spend $5k+ on a fancy ass bike, but balk at spending $200 or more to protect their noggin.

 

[Da Peach]

Perhaps one could wear these shorts on one's head.

 

[jonKranked]

also, little known fact: POC is a wholly owned subsidiary of Black Diamond Equipment. not bad for a company that was only founded in 2004.

edit: POC was acquired by them in 2012 for a bit under $44 million.

 

[syadasti]

the products your dealing with may be more mechanically complex, but when talking about something like a helmet - whose sole purpose is to protect the main organ of the human nervous system - there's a LOT more performance testing and analysis that goes into it. which takes a LOT of time.

Bell/Giro still didn't need to push into significantly higher price brackets for new helmet designs before newcomers like POC. The product manager's job is to price what makes sense for the market and other managers will take note. With more wealthy or gullible end-users you can push higher for cheap (significant or not), small incremental, or even questionable marketing changes.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

My Levi jeans often suffice.

 

[jonKranked]

Bell/Giro still didn't need to push into significantly higher price brackets for new helmet designs before newcomers like POC. The product manager's job is to price what makes sense for the market and other managers will take note. With more wealthy or gullible end-users you can push higher for cheap (significant or not), small incremental, or even questionable marketing changes.

but do they truly need to push into those price brackets? POC hasn't exactly made it a secret that compete on performance quality, not price. and the market is clearly supporting it.

and speaking of wealthy end users, i predict they are gonna have REALLY good growth in the road market.

 

[jackalope]

POC should market a road helmet called the "Dentite"...maybe even affix those little dental mirrors on the front. May not appeal to drkenan, but I still think they would kill it.

 

[JohnE]

So far as I know, there has never been a documeted TBI on account of medium priced, well made shorts...

 

[jonKranked]

So far as I know, there has never been a documeted TBI on account of medium priced, well made shorts...

only chupacabra's wear those

 

[eric strt6]

laughing at this thread. John is spot on, 270 for a freaking pair of shorts? ya gotta be high on crack. A helmet I can see dropping some cash for one that fits and is nicely vented as you only get one brain but clothing???. I am going on 3 years with a pair of baggies that I picked up for $65 and a few pairs of lycra shorts that were in the $50 range.

Don't get me started on finding a reasonably priced set of fat tires

 

[DirtyMike]

OMFG, I needed this, awesome laugh here.

Check it out, everyone in here has completely missed the baseline factor.

While this was a great laugh to see both sides of the argument, everyone forgot one HUGE factor here... Marketing. People like POC can sell there items at such prices because they pay someone to market them, and that person who is marketing them knows there are people willing to pay the price. Be it actually better or not, it convinces people that they are, and a lot of people flat out just feel better thinking there product is better.


There is no crazy scheme behind it, as long as someone is willing to pay it, all the companies that offer the hi end products will keep doing so.

As far as a more expensive helmet being better, not always the case, I will not argue what is better. I also will not argue as to r&d being the cause of a pricing structure.

I will say however, DoT and Snell certified is DoT and Snell certified, Mips is Mips.


Bottom line when talking about a helmet is, first and foremost is needs to fit your melon right or its not worth a damn penny!!!!

 

[jonKranked]

There is no crazy scheme behind it, as long as someone is willing to pay it, all the companies that offer the hi end products will keep doing so.

As far as a more expensive helmet being better, not always the case, I will not argue what is better. I also will not argue as to r&d being the cause of a pricing structure.

I will say however, DoT and Snell certified is DoT and Snell certified, Mips is Mips.


Bottom line when talking about a helmet is, first and foremost is needs to fit your melon right or its not worth a damn penny!!!!

i might be misinterpreting here, but development costs are **ALWAYS** incorporated to the pricing structure. i'm not saying they're the sole driver, but they absolutely have to be accounted for.

edit: other than that, i agree with everything else.

 

[Pesqueeb]

 

[DirtyMike]

i might be misinterpreting here, but development costs are **ALWAYS** incorporated to the pricing structure. i'm not saying they're the sole driver, but they absolutely have to be accounted for.

edit: other than that, i agree with everything else.

The bottom line for all sales and marketing is how many can I sell, r&d is considered but is usually not a driving factor unless you are marketing something that has a very small market, such as human implants, then r&d is a huge factor, but something like protective gear which has a huge market it will come down to what will people pay and still be able to move product.

 

[DirtyMike]

If you really want to think about the spectrum of things, think about a truly bike related one, cost for your LBS to buy, assemble, display and sell you a bike, that mark up is pretty small. Flip side, tubes, LBS gouges the hell out of you for a tube compared to what they pay...

Its all marketing, sell one item at crap mark up, another at massive mark up when they come in for more. If there is a market you can charge for it.

 

[jonKranked]

The bottom line for all sales and marketing is how many can I sell, r&d is considered but is usually not a driving factor unless you are marketing something that has a very small market, such as human implants, then r&d is a huge factor, but something like protective gear which has a huge market it will come down to what will people pay and still be able to move product.

in the big scheme of things, bike helmets isn't really a huge market. it does have certain regulations & performance standards that need to be met, which means iterations of design and testing to ensure compliance. snell, dot, cpsc, astm - they may not be hard to meet the standards (that's neither here nor there right now) - but you still need to provide empirical data to prove compliance.

 

[Da Peach]

bikes are loss leaders for tubes. everybody knows that.

 

[jonKranked]

If you really want to think about the spectrum of things, think about a truly bike related one, cost for your LBS to buy, assemble, display and sell you a bike, that mark up is pretty small. Flip side, tubes, LBS gouges the hell out of you for a tube compared to what they pay...

Its all marketing, sell one item at crap mark up, another at massive mark up when they come in for more. If there is a market you can charge for it.

also look at risk of failure, in terms of severity. look at tubes. if it fails, the risk of TBI is very low. if a helmet fails, the risk of TBI is high. Hell, even if a helmet works as intended there's still an associated risk of TBI. It's the nature of the product, so it's also a business liability.