[- seb]

Here in the UK, everyone races the same track. Whether it's numpties or pros, 13yr olds or 50yr olds. There's only one exception, a Scottish place called Dunkeld where the juveniles (youngest category) are made to start after the hardest bit of the course.

What's the deal in the US? Am I right in thinking that a lot of your races have different courses/sections that for various categories?

Cheers,

Seb

 

[4130biker]

Here in the northwest, the only place I've raced, that's how it is. I race once and a while, have no aspiration of gaining points and am more than capable of running the more fun/gnarlier courses. I'm not excited to even go to a race to run the "easy" track. Personally, I think the format sucks. An easy course for beginners is one thing (maybe), but for experienced riders that have to run sport (easy course) since they don't race all the time is pretty lame.

Sure, I don't put in the time to move up, but I have things I'd rather be doing. I know that being able to ride the real track would attract me to more races though.

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

A bunch of races I used to frequent had different courses. After my skills got a little better, I jumped to expert so I could ride the tougher tracks since the beginner and sport courses were boring.

Lately, races seem to have toned it down a bit by comparison, or just have optional expert lines that are usually quicker...

 

[Kevin]

Chicken runs around jumps, drops, tech stuff, free for everyone to take...

 

[Whoops]

Chicken runs around jumps, drops, tech stuff, free for everyone to take...

best approach.

 

[Big J]

Separate courses are a pain for promoters and extra work for course builders, course marshals and est. though some places like Snowshoe do a great job with their sport course management.

Go-arounds (chicken lines) are good for the sport by allowing the new racers a chance to ride the same course as the Pros and see how they measure up against all other catagories, I think this is important to keep those new racers returning for more.

J

 

[Kevin]

In other downhill cats news...

 

[Big J]

In other downhill cats news...

Make fun of my abbreviation, there fixed….hey buddy the winters just as long in Chicago as they are in Holland w/ little to do, except ski, Ray’s Indoor MTB-Milwaukee, snowmobile, drink beer at the Tilted Kilt http://www.tiltedkilt.com/calendar-2010.html(I know it's a cheesy establishment but...), est, est….

Edit: btw, the photo is hilarious…

J

 

[nh dude]

meeeeeeoooooowwwwwwwww...

 

[- seb]

best approach.

Agreed!

 

[steelforeel]

Now do you guys still wonder why americans suck at downhill?

 

[blackohio]

I havent seen footage from whatever the course in Washington state with the big rock step-down/gap that shows classes being routed around that but seriously what cat 3 dude wants to hit that.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

Plattekill Bike Park runs a separate course for Cat 2-3 and Pro Cat1

Mount Snow runs the same course for everyone for Eastern State Cup Races.

 

[- seb]

It must be annoying for the lesser classes not to be able to compare their times to the pros, and for the event not to be able to publish an "overall" results listing, merging all of the categories together.

 

[thad]

You can't really have tracks that challenge the top riders, that beginners can get down in one piece.

You think it's a good idea to send beginners down lines like these?
http://www.pinkbike.com/video/20821/

I guess the pros should just race tracks that 50year old fat doods and 12 year old girls can ride?

 

[Pslide]

UK courses are a bit safer with less rock. Not to say they're less difficult, just less risk. You get places like Fort Bill with rock, but it's not really technically too difficult. You get nasty rock gardens here in the states, and they love to run courses right through em for some reason. Also, I think older US trails generally have more freeride influence than the race oriented UK and EU scene, with the occasional non-beginner friendly features.

I definitely don't like to the two course strategy. They didn't even let us ride the WC Course at Windham in the citizens race!

 

[Pslide]

You can't really have tracks that challenge the top riders, that beginners can get down in one piece.

You think it's a good idea to send beginners down lines like these?

I guess the pros should just race tracks that 50year old fat doods and 12 year old girls can ride?

There's the freeride influence. I've not seen this in person, but it looks like a huck to me.

 

[thad]

Sol Vista had a pro-only track with huge jumps. Gwin said that it's exactly what the sport needs.

 

[Chaingangster]

I don't know if Pro only courses are the way to grow the sport. Yes, it's impressive to watch a talented rider quickly navigate a tough course, but the courses don't need to be so hard that a Sport rider can't safely race them.

To me, one of the extremely interesting and addicting aspects of racing is all the small but important details that top riders put together to make a clean, fast run through a course. The line choices, braking points, corner execution, etc, are what differentiate the Pros from everyone else.

If the same race course with "opt outs" is used at an event, it gives all levels of riders a chance to improve their skills, compare their line choices and resulting times against the best racers present that day. Most racers aren't out to prove themselves as the fastest rider on the mountain, but to have fun, camaraderie, to compare their times to their buddies and to the icons of the sport. If the icons aren't present on the same course, there isn't such a lofty goal to compare against or dream of attaining.

Take Supercross for example. The courses are huge, but not impossible to ride. What separates the fast racers such as Stewart or Villopoto is their extremely impressive skill and speed, not simply their ability to navigate the course. I think the same should apply to DH race courses.

EDIT: To clarify, I do not think Beginner classes should race the same course. Beginner courses should be fun, yet safe enough to encourage a new rider to progress with the sport, not get scared or injured.

 

[thad]

I think there should be both.

Tracks like Fort Bill that anyone can ride.

And then you have tracks like Champery, that challenge the world's best. There's no "ride arounds" for Champery. Full-on, gnar, steeps. There has not been a more exciting race in recent years than the Champery mud fest when Hill took second after the deluge.

And tracks like Sol Vista with 40ft doubles.

Pros should be able to shred big jumps and gnar steeps.

 

[Sandwich]

plattekill typically does three courses, cat 3 is easy way, cat 2 is the same as 3 but with some more technical sections, and cat 1 and pro are typically ZOMG WTF. At times I wish all courses were the sames with walkarounds so we'd all be on comparable courses, but I like the idea of A( giving beginners an opportunity to get into the sport without dying, and Z@ giving sport level riders the opportunity to go fast on a slightly less challenging course, and finally 45> keeping practice separate.

At the same time, since I race cat 2, but can ride cat 1, I wish I had the opportunity to compare myself against that category, and I wish that sandbaggers could be forced up or down into the appropriate category instead of racing where they feel like it that day. One particular race, 15-20 seconds separated 1st and second, which really shouldn't be....

 

[thom9719]

Most of the reasoning for separating the courses comes from pros complaining. As a Pro, it SUCKS to travel to a race and not even get a full practice run without catching someone. Most smaller races only have Saturday practice/Sunday race. It usually isn't enough time to split the practice sessions, so you have pros on course running over beginners which isn't fun for anyone. We split the courses, so everyone can practice at once and hopefully enjoy the weekend.

-KT

 

[Lelandjt]

Courses don't need to be so hard that a Sport rider can't safely race them.

Yes they do. I want to be challenged. I also want courses that necessitate a DH bike. At the same time I understand that for DH to grow the beginner course needs to be ride-able on a 6" bike.

You have to recognize the vast difference in ability between Pros and beginners/sports. One track won't satisfy everyone unless it has sections that are open only to Pro/Cat 1.

I understand that there are skilled riders who want to be able to ride the Pro level tracks but don't race enough to get into that class (I'm thinking of the kid who'd never raced that I lead down the Pro track at Sol Vista and cleared everything). That's tough but it's necessary to keep other Sport riders from killing themselves by riding way over their heads in the heat of competition.

 

[- seb]

We do definitely lack "gnar" here in the uk. Lots of technical rooty stuff etc, and some tracks are far from "easy", but ****-yourself-scary sections are very few and far between. In fact I think courses here have gone backwards a bit with Health & Safety I'm surprised at some of the sections I see in US courses given the suing nature of your country... very jealous of them too!

Someone mentioned Champery... obviously you can't have "ride arounds" there (or "chicken runs" as they're known here), but you can't have an easier course either, the hill's just damn steep. But since it's a world cup venue it's a bit of a moot point anyway.

That sort of thing aside, I think it's probably virtually always possible to put chicken runs in around the hardest bits of courses, and has to be easier than building/maintaining/marshalling 2 completely different tracks.

Practice segregation is a good point; as one of the faster riders I often find myself catching people up in practice. It rarely bothers me to be honest, and many years ago when I was one of the slow people getting in everyone else's way that didn't bother me massively either, and I like to think I was pretty good at sensing riders behind me and getting out of their way. Not everyone is understanding/considerate when they're on the race track though...

One thing no-one has mentioned, is if you go down the "make chicken runs" route, then you end up with a situation where lesser riders may feel peer pressure to try sections that they really shouldn't be doing - after all, who wants to take the "chicken run"... best case scenario is that these novices hold practice up all day while they get scraped off of the course. Worst case scenario is serious injuries and the possibility of someone trying to (unreasonably) sue the organiser for putting unsuitable bits in a track aimed at all levels...

 

[iRider]

Very good point! The situation you describe also sucks for the lower cat riders. If you are sectioning and a Pro comes flying down the hill there is a high chance for disaster. At some races they try to split the practice time, like 2 hrs for 200 AM racers and 2 hrs for 30 Pros. Takes a lot of fun out of practice for the AMs too IMO.

Most of the reasoning for separating the courses comes from pros complaining. As a Pro, it SUCKS to travel to a race and not even get a full practice run without catching someone. Most smaller races only have Saturday practice/Sunday race. It usually isn't enough time to split the practice sessions, so you have pros on course running over beginners which isn't fun for anyone. We split the courses, so everyone can practice at once and hopefully enjoy the weekend.

-KT

 

[iRider]

... - after all, who wants to take the "chicken run"...

I can remember a race where the chicken line was used by nearly all the Pros .... because it was faster! Bad build chicken lines suck!

 

[DirtyMike]

I think it all depends on the location and course.

Go arounds are a good idea for obstacles with hi consequence for failure, and depending on were, it might be the only option to use seperate courses. Here in SOcal we see Split courses, basically a large section, all ends up in the same place overall.

Its really a matter of the track builders and race coordinaters deciding if what is being used will hurt the beginner riders.

 

[- seb]

I can remember a race where the chicken line was used by nearly all the Pros .... because it was faster! Bad build chicken lines suck!

All too common sadly. Or courses without a chicken-line per se, but where it's taped so you can ride past a jump instead of doing the jump, and simply riding past it is quicker. That sort of thing is pretty sucky.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

It is not always possible to add a chicken line around rock formations or steep stuff without having the chicken turn out to be very long. Put in three of those and you have a different course anyway. And don't forget the chicken lines must merge back to the trail and often in an easier and faster section. Venues that have the terrain to challenge pro's shoudl use that terrain. Venues that don't just use one course.

Bottom line it is and should be left up to the venue to decide.

 

[Kevin]

Make fun of my abbreviation, there fixed….hey buddy the winters just as long in Chicago as they are in Holland w/ little to do, except ski, Ray’s Indoor MTB-Milwaukee, snowmobile, drink beer at the Tilted Kilt http://www.tiltedkilt.com/calendar-2010.html(I know it's a cheesy establishment but...), est, est….

Edit: btw, the photo is hilarious…

J

Ive been avoiding winters for 4 years now except for some snowboard trips for this reason...
I think well reach 92 today here in Costa Rica

 

[Kevin]

You can't really have tracks that challenge the top riders, that beginners can get down in one piece.

You think it's a good idea to send beginners down lines like these?
http://www.pinkbike.com/video/20821/

I guess the pros should just race tracks that 50year old fat doods and 12 year old girls can ride?

Theres stuff just as big and bigger in European races and theres allways a chicken run around it.
You could even close the nasty part and make the beginners/kids take the chicken run.
Its really not that hard

 

[- seb]

OK, some of you may have figured why I was asking this in the first place by now.

One of the things my site allows you to do, is to pitch two riders against each other in a comparison, e.g. Gee versus Aaron:
http://www.rootsandrain.com/compare.html?i=753x2949

For world cup riders that's just fine - they all obviously ride the same course as each other.

For UK riders, it's also fine, as we have *optional* chicken lines. An entry-level rider is unlikely to take the harder lines, but they CAN if they want, so it's fair to compare times between them and Pros.

We have ONE exception in the UK, that I know of. A place called Dunkeld. At Dunkeld the youngest category are made to start from lower down the hill, and as such comparisons between a 14yr old's and an 18yr old's times can't be made, as they've effectively ridden a different course. E.g:
http://www.rootsandrain.com/compare.html?i=14x883&year=2007 (note the missing graph point)


So, as some of you will have noticed, I'm expanding R&R to include a whole batch of USA races. And with them, all of you USA riders...

So the question I need to know is:

Which venues/races run different courses for different categories?

It's very rarely reported on race results sheets etc. The more information you can give me, the better. Assume I know nothing about the US race scene, as that's pretty much true!

At the moment my site only has races going back to 2009 in it, so if you can let me know of ANY U.S. race in '09/10/11 that had separate courses for different categories, I'd be IMMENSELY grateful. Thank you!

 

[b.utters]

In Australia its much the same as the UK. One track for everyone but with A lines and B lines.

This is a pretty good example from one of the harder tracks we race:

In it you can see the A line (being ridden) and the B line on the right of the pic.

To me this is a much better method as it helps slower riders improve. Having 2 tracks would be of benefit if you have a stupid amount of people at a race but most tracks here are able to handle 150 or more people.

With regard to the faster riders catching slower riders; in most of our races the slower guys have the common sense to let faster guys go down the track first.

 

[thom9719]

snip

All of the Northwest cup/fluidride races have separate courses for Cat 3, Cat2, combined course for Cat1/Pro

The course with the rock huck in this thread is Beacon Hill in Spokane Washington. Everyone runs the same course except for that drop. It is only open to Pro/Cat 1.

-KT

 

[dhdracesite.com]

OK, some of you may have figured why I was asking this in the first place by now.

One of the things my site allows you to do, is to pitch two riders against each other in a comparison, e.g. Gee versus Aaron:
http://www.rootsandrain.com/compare.html?i=753x2949

For world cup riders that's just fine - they all obviously ride the same course as each other.

For UK riders, it's also fine, as we have *optional* chicken lines. An entry-level rider is unlikely to take the harder lines, but they CAN if they want, so it's fair to compare times between them and Pros.

We have ONE exception in the UK, that I know of. A place called Dunkeld. At Dunkeld the youngest category are made to start from lower down the hill, and as such comparisons between a 14yr old's and an 18yr old's times can't be made, as they've effectively ridden a different course. E.g:
http://www.rootsandrain.com/compare.html?i=14x883&year=2007 (note the missing graph point)


So, as some of you will have noticed, I'm expanding R&R to include a whole batch of USA races. And with them, all of you USA riders...

So the question I need to know is:

Which venues/races run different courses for different categories?

It's very rarely reported on race results sheets etc. The more information you can give me, the better. Assume I know nothing about the US race scene, as that's pretty much true!

At the moment my site only has races going back to 2009 in it, so if you can let me know of ANY U.S. race in '09/10/11 that had separate courses for different categories, I'd be IMMENSELY grateful. Thank you!

Seb we at the GES run a different venue and course at every GES with all classes included in each event, it is the training ground for riders like Neko Mulally who cut his teeth on GES race scene and has made the world stage, in my opinion running in so many different regions of the US and differing venues are very close to a World Cup on a regional scene. Just my perspective since riders like Neko and Jason Memmalar have success after running in the GES series, USA Cycling's criteria is running in differing regions as opposed to one region is imperative to success "quoting Mark Gullickson" from the USA Gravity Summit and the ProGrt

I hope this helps

 

[PArider29]

Seb we at the GES run a different venue and course at every GES with all classes included in each event, it is the training ground for riders like Neko Mulally who cut his teeth on GES race scene and has made the world stage, in my opinion running in so many different regions of the US and differing venues are very close to a World Cup on a regional scene. Just my perspective since riders like Neko and Jason Memmalar have success after running in the GES series, USA Cycling's criteria is running in differing regions as opposed to one region is imperative to success "quoting Mark Gullickson" from the USA Gravity Summit and the ProGrt

I hope this helps

So besides spamming the GES how did you help to answer his question?

I like the GES and I race the series, but please tone it down.

Seb, located here in NC and having raced up and down the east coast the only Mountain I know that runs a completely separate course for Cat2 and Cat3 and a separate course for Pro and Cat 1 is Plattekill Mountain.

Thank you for expanding your services! Awesome now I know my nemesis! haha

 

[MFrider]

Seb we at the GES run a different venue and course at every GES with all classes included in each event, it is the training ground for riders like Neko Mulally who cut his teeth on GES race scene and has made the world stage, in my opinion running in so many different regions of the US and differing venues are very close to a World Cup on a regional scene. Just my perspective since riders like Neko and Jason Memmalar have success after running in the GES series, USA Cycling's criteria is running in differing regions as opposed to one region is imperative to success "quoting Mark Gullickson" from the USA Gravity Summit and the ProGrt

I hope this helps

No help at all

What Parider said, Platty appears to be the only one left running two courses. I think depends on the size of the race but one course should be enough with go arounds for cat 2 and cat 3. Depending on the section they may want to make the lower classes do the go around.

 

[gemini2k]

S\in my opinion running in so many different regions of the US and differing venues are very close to a World Cup on a regional scene.

So....much....lolz

 

[Full Trucker]

Seb,

I had to dig deep for the races I know of here in Colorado/New Mexico/Nevada. Although in year's past we ran a LOT of separate tracks, these days mostly we run the same track for all categories, just with aforementioned Chicken Lines. There are a few notable exceptions and sometimes it depends on the year not so much the venue, which is why it will be difficult to remember what races had different tracks for different classes. When the tracks ARE separate, the Cat 1 Juniors ("Elite" Juniors) usually run the same track as the Pros for U.S. Worlds Team selection.

Prime example of this would be the MSC Chile Challenge: this season (2011) it was the same track for all classes. Last year (2010) I'm pretty sure (as in, it might have been 2009?) it was a slightly different track for Pros/Cat 1 Junior than it was for all Cat 2/3 and Cat 1 Seniors.

Here is what I can remember being different off the top of my head. For MSC races, anything I don't list assume it's the same track:

2010 Chile Challenge (MSC):
Track 1: Pros/Cat 1 Juniors
Track 2: All ages Cat 3/All ages Cat 2/Cat 1 Senior 19+

2010 U.S. National Championships:
Track 1: Pro/Cat 1 Juniors
Track 2: All ages Cat 3/All ages Cat 2/Cat 1 Senior 19+

2009 U.S. National Championships:
Track 1: Pro/Cat 1 Juniors
Track 2: All ages Cat 3/All ages Cat 2/Cat 1 Senior 19+

The New Mob:
Pretty sure there were different tracks for different classes here, definitely a Pro/Cat 1 Junior track and a "rest of the amateurs" track if I remember right. Does anyone else recall?




Once I start feeding you 2008 results and before, there's pretty much NO WAY I'll be able to remember what races had different tracks, sorry about that. In a few cases, the finish times MIGHT give me a clue, but even that's dodgy. Moving forward, if any of the MSC races have separate tracks for Pros/Ams, I'll let you know, but like I said we're mostly racing the same stuff these days. If I forget, shoot me an email. I'll also send you a bit of info on a couple of SWEET races here in Colorado that I forgot to tell you about before:

Triple DHip
Suckerpunch Downhill Challenge

 

[mtg]

Prime example of this would be the MSC Chile Challenge: this season (2011) it was the same track for all classes. In 2009, it was a slightly different track for Pros/Cat 1 Junior than it was for all Cat 2/3 and Cat 1 Seniors.


2010 Chile Challenge (MSC):
Same course for all classes

Trucker, it was 2009 that we ran separate courses at Angel Fire. Cat 2/3 took World Cup proper, while Pro/Cat 1 rode down Pepper Spray. In 2010, everybody ran World Cup proper.