Demo 8.. who got details?

bizutch · Jun 9, 2004

WEll, I just got to check out Herndon's brand new, shiny metallic grey Demo 8 on Saturday. Supposedly one of only two out right now. He had a Boxxer and XTR stuff on it....nothing ultralight on it. It was a medium size from what I could tell, which is what he usually rides. He wasn't around the shop at the time to ask any details.

But from a visual perspective, it seemed identical to the Demo 9 but weighed in at a normal DH bike weight...if not seeming pretty light. It looked like you thought the Demo 9 would have looked when it came out...race ready. So basicly, it "looked" sweet" and weighed what seemed like WAY LESS than the Demo9. I can see a lot of people getting excited about it. The shocck I think was a coil w/ reservoir (Swinger I assuned)...don't know what a DHX is?

...oh and the color wasn't his usual unpainted prototype raw finish, it was factory painted with Demo 8 stickers....the color was about like the outline of this text box :confused:

escapeartist · Jun 9, 2004

NSMB had an article on it here ya go
________
Laguna Heights Condos

lovebunny · Jun 10, 2004

well you could wait like the rest of us

punkassean · Jun 10, 2004

I was at Specialized HQ a few weeks ago and I saw a red anodized demo series bike, only this was before I had read or heard about the Demo8 so I didn't look at it very close. I just assumed it was an '05 Demo9. So anyway it might come in red anodized? I am curious to see it as well, I guess we'll have to wait a bit longer.

Zark · Jun 10, 2004

punkassean said:
I was at Specialized HQ a few weeks ago and I saw a red anodized demo series bike, only this was before I had read or heard about the Demo8 so I didn't look at it very close. I just assumed it was an '05 Demo9. So anyway it might come in red anodized? I am curious to see it as well, I guess we'll have to wait a bit longer.

Saw that at Big Bear, its was a Demo 9 with a red ano finish. Not a demo 8

The Kadvang · Jun 10, 2004

Yep, thats a 9. The new demo looks to be real nice, I can't wait for 2005.

So-EastMatt · Jun 10, 2004

I hear tell that herndon's bike tips the scales at 38 lbs.

syadasti · Jun 13, 2004

Herndon is a Specialized sponsored racer from the Southeast.

jet · Jun 13, 2004

Bloch said the bike rides the same and the bikes themselves are almost identical.

Demo-8 frame is about 1.5lbs lighter.

syadasti · Jun 13, 2004

Lighter than the Demo-8 (12.25 lbs in a medium), much higher quality hardware, stiffer rear end (thru-axle too), full seatpost range, adjustable chainstay length and headangle, similiar pricing ( to demo9 though

), and made in North America.

The 2005 Knolly Vtach:

Interview with Noel of Knolly Bikes

syadasti · Jun 13, 2004

That is a 7.3" FR bike and that is the true weight, not some fibbing manfacturer telling you what the extra small frame weight missing the hardware or something silly like that

If you want a really light FR bike you'll have to pick something like a Foes Fly - linkage bikes will always weigh more if they are built as strong but the suspension will be better, especially with a horst link, for pedaling, braking, etc...

The V-tach frame is designed to be a solid chassis for building up an aggressive freeride bike. Its unconventional design is actually a combination of innovative features seamlessly meshed with proven bicycle technology. This is NOT a longer travel trail bike or a shortened DH bike. Every design and manufacturing aspect of the V-tach frame is based on building the highest performing aggressive freeriding frame available.

Jm_ · Jun 13, 2004

syadasti said:
If you want a really light FR bike you'll have to pick something like a Foes Fly - linkage bikes will always weigh more if they are built as strong

The foes fly IS a linage bike, and it is NOT that light.

syadasti · Jun 13, 2004

The Foes Fly is a single pivot bike with a linkage to prevent sideloading.

The Foes Fly is probably one of the lightest 8" bikes with a floater - its right around 10 lbs...

Here, directly from their website. Foes Fly Features:

- 6.25" To 8" Travel (Depending On Position)
- Optional Curnutt XTD Shock w/ Ti Spring
- Super Strong, Fully Triangulated Swing-Arm
- Foes Swing-Link For Even More Rigidity
- Floating Disc Brake
- Single Pivot Design
- Optional 10mm Thru-Axle Rear Hub
For Shimano Saint
Must purchase Foes 10mm Axle for Saint Use

Jm_ · Jun 13, 2004

syadasti said:
The Foes Fly is a single pivot bike with a linkage to prevent sideloading.

The Foes Fly is probably one of the lightest 8" bikes with a floater - its right around 10 lbs...

Here, directly from their website. Foes Fly Features:

My foes FXR is a single pivot bike where the linkage only prvents side loading.

You need to take a look at the Fly again, the shock mounts the the LINKAGE, not the rear triangle (like my FXR).

There are plenty of linkage bikes out there that aren't horst link bikes.

Horst-link seems to be your definition of "linkage".

speedster · Jun 13, 2004

The demo 8 shouldn't be that much lighter than the 9. All you are losing is a through axle and an inch of travel. 1.5 lbs seems reasonable for the weight difference between the two. It will be nice to see the demo 4 too.

syadasti · Jun 13, 2004

No a linkage bike is a four bar like a dwlink, canfield, horst, karpiel, Balfa 2-step, etc...

Foes bikes are basically single pivot bikes and FOES says so themselves - the wheelpath is not changed by their linkage...

Jm_ · Jun 13, 2004

syadasti said:
No a linkage bike is a four bar like a dwlink, canfield, horst, karpiel, Balfa 2-step, etc...

Foes bikes are basically single pivot bikes and FOES says so themselves - the wheelpath is not changed by their linkage...

You need to open up your brain a lot.

There's a big difference between the fly and the other foes bikes (mono, fxr, inferno). The difference is the linakge, on the other bikes the shock mounts directly to the rear triangle and the main frame. On the fly it mounts to the main frame and the linkage. It's a linkage bike, and it's ALSO a single pivot.

So you've decided that only horst-linkage or parallel-linkage bikes are the only linkage bikes? LOL!!!

What about my old cheata proline? it had a linkage.

What about my rocky mountain?, it had a linkage.

What about my diamondaback?, it had a linkage.

What about a kona stinky or stab?, it has a linkage.

What about a nicolai? it has a linkage.

etc....

????!!!!!

Who cares about wheelpath, there's no dictionary or commonly accepted definition that a linkage bike has to have a different wheelpath than a single pivot, in fact that just shoots yourself in the foot since horst-link bikes still have the wheel moving in an arc, it's around a virtual pivot, but it's still an arc....linkage bikes have linkages to vary shock rate for the most part.

syadasti · Jun 13, 2004

Those are linkage activated single pivots. The linkages only provide structural and/or rate changes for the suspension but do not effect the wheelpath... They are essentially a single pivot...

Foes reflects this in their literature - you can blab all your want but its essential a single pivot and the company that makes it says so:

Single Pivot Design
All Foes suspension frames utilize a triangulated single pivot swing arm with oversized sealed aircraft bearings. DH models use a custom made 12mm through-axle hub (included with every DH frame) for added stiffness and strength.

Foes Swing-Link
The Foes Swing-Link is a CNC machined, billet aluminum anchor for the swing arm. In conjunction with the pivot point and the shock mount, the Swing-Link is the third point at which the swing arm is mounted and is the attribute that gives every single Foes frame the stiffest rear structure possible. The Swing-Link incorporates 6 sealed cartridge 'enduro' bearings for precision and durability.

A linkage bike makes a wheelpath that is more advantage than could be feasibly made with a single pivot location for various reasons - otherwise there is no reason to add the additional complexity and weight...

Jm_ · Jun 13, 2004

syadasti said:
Those are linkage activated single pivots. ...

Thank you.

Linkage bikes.

The Kadvang · Jun 13, 2004

JM_ is right. Linkage doesn't preclude single pivot- konas are linkage bikes, but they have a 'single pivot' axel path, eg. an arc. A linkage doesn't NEED to change the axel path or give suspension benefits, but it CAN. A foes bike is a linkage activated single pivot, as stated above.

vitox · Jun 14, 2004

Jm_ said:
Thank you.

Linkage bikes.

so then i have been living in ignorancy all these years thinking that the AOMTEF (associated online mtbike engineers federation) official jargon for anything with a rear wheel trajectory defined by one (1) pivot was a single pivot

you live, you learn

all BS aside i think grouping singlepivot-with-a-linkage bikes together with straight singlepivots is more natural from a taxonomic point of view.

punkassean · Jun 14, 2004

speedster said:
The demo 8 shouldn't be that much lighter than the 9. All you are losing is a through axle and an inch of travel. 1.5 lbs seems reasonable for the weight difference between the two. It will be nice to see the demo 4 too.

one of the main weight saving features you neglected to mention is that the ribcage on the Demo8 is much smaller and the down tube goes all the way to the BB shell. That alone probably drops 1/4-1/2lb.

Jm_ · Jun 14, 2004

vitox said:
so then i have been living in ignorancy all these years thinking that the AOMTEF (associated online mtbike engineers federation) official jargon for anything with a rear wheel trajectory defined by one (1) pivot was a single pivot

you live, you learn

all BS aside i think grouping singlepivot-with-a-linkage bikes together with straight singlepivots is more natural from a taxonomic point of view.

If it's got a linkage that does anything, I call it a linkage bike.

To further narrow it down, if it has a linkage that alters the shock rate, I call it a single-pivot linkage bike.

If it has a linkage that alters the wheelpath, I call it a horst/lawill/vpp/karpiel/dw linkage bike.

Despite the fact that turners DHRs, giant DH bikes, and all sorts of others are single pivots, they have linkages as well. I'll continue to characterize them as "linkage bikes" because they have a linkge, and it is most definitely doing something on that bike. Plane-jane single pivot bikes are bullits, oranges, trek desiels, etc....

PoserNewbie · Jun 14, 2004

Demo9-lexle said:
Hm.. the Demo is round about 14.28 lbs, that means 12.78lbs for the demo 8 ?

Not as light as I thought :mumble:

Hmm...I don't know how accurate is your scale but my Demo9 frame with the ringle hub, truvativ gigapipe DH BB and their generic seatpost weighs 14lbs. The frame alone would be around 12lbs.

punkassean · Jun 14, 2004

I rode a Demo9 for the first time the other day, the bike is sooooo sick! It makes anything possible, We took it down mailboxes in SC and I hit everything first try blind. It just takes it in stride! It is heavy but it rides sooo good, the low CG clings to the dirt like a terd jib to my ass-web. After I run down mailboxes I felt comfortable enough to hit a 15' drop that I hadn't hit or even seen before. bottom line Demo9 and I'm sure 8 rocks regardless of weight. It doesn't ride like a heavy bike at all and even pedals great. MUST OWN ONE, MUST SELL EVERYTHING AND GET ONE NOW!!!!!!!!

hrrmmm...let's see...Demo8 w/Fox DH Fork, Fox DHX(or new long air shock?), EX823's, King everything....I think sub 40lb would be easy!

Kornphlake · Jun 14, 2004

Jm_ said:
If it's got a linkage that does anything, I call it a linkage bike.

To further narrow it down, if it has a linkage that alters the shock rate, I call it a single-pivot linkage bike.

If it has a linkage that alters the wheelpath, I call it a horst/lawill/vpp/karpiel/dw linkage bike.

I always use the same jargon. A bullit is a single pivot, it has no linkage driving the shock. A giant DH, San Andreas shock wave, Foes Fly, Yeti AS-X, Rocky Mountain RM7, Kona Stinky, or the PDC racing machine are a single pivot with a linkage driven shock as it has a linkage driving the shock. It's still a linkage type bike and the travel will feel different than a non linkage single pivot. Sure you don't get the benefits of a horst link or other 4 bar designs, specifically active braking and axle path, but you do get progressive shock actuation which can make a lot of differance.

Toshi · Jun 14, 2004

Kornphlake said:
I always use the same jargon. A bullit is a single pivot, it has no linkage driving the shock. A giant DH, San Andreas shock wave, Foes Fly, Yeti AS-X, Rocky Mountain RM7, Kona Stinky, or the PDC racing machine are a single pivot with a linkage driven shock as it has a linkage driving the shock. It's still a linkage type bike and the travel will feel different than a non linkage single pivot. Sure you don't get the benefits of a horst link or other 4 bar designs, specifically active braking and axle path, but you do get progressive shock actuation which can make a lot of differance.

two quibbles: it's a mountain cycles shockwave 9.5, not "san andreas shockwave", as san andreas was their old, non-linkage model. also, linkages do not necessarily imply a progressive rate. but i'm just being picky here

Kornphlake · Jun 14, 2004

Right, mountain cycles is the company, san andreas was the model. I knew that, I've known it since the early nineties, just a mistake. As far as the linkage not implying a progressive rate, you're correct although I don't believe I've ever seen a falling rate linkage on a production single pivot, if I have it's been revamped to be progressive. Nobody likes their bike to be too stiff on small hits and bottom on large stuff.

syadasti · Jun 14, 2004

And my point was that a single pivot bike, may it be a straight single pivot or single pivot bike as the main structural element with a linkage, will be the lightest way to build a FR bike (besides riding a burly HT

), aside from asinine lexicon Nazis who argue BS to no end. I know exactly how each of these designs work and you know it. I've seen the designs in person and their evolution from first generation to the present. The topic at hand - Horst-link Demo 8 - from the first generation sworks fsr (looks like a scapel except it has a horst link instead of chainstay flex) and AMP B series all the way to the Demo9 and Knolly Vtach...

You won't need as much material to make the frame strong enough vs. a bike like a DW, Horst, Lawhill, Karpiel, Canfield, VPP, etc... Those designs have more key pivot points to develop play/issues for alignment, more hardware vs. tubing, and/or need additional material to maintain stiffness.

Kornphlake · Jun 14, 2004

hu? So what exactly what "Lexicon BS" are you arguing?

Yes single pivots, either straight single pivot or linkage diven, have the potential to be stiffer because there is only one pivot between the mainframe and the axle, with any other 4 bar design there's at least 2 pivots between the axle and the main frame. How does that make the definition of a linkage different? A kona stinky is still a linkage bike, in fact it's a 4 bar, it's technical name is a turner/walking beam, which interestingly isn't the species of linkage you find on turner bikes like the 5 spot or RFX, they feature a horst link which simply put has a pivot between the chainstays and the seat stays and the axle is mounted to the pieces of metal most resembling the seat stays. If you want to throw some funk in the mix let's talk about the trek fuel. It's got one pivot fewer than any 4 bar design.

Of course you already knew that and were just stirring the pot for the sake of stirring the pot. A linkage does not have to change the path of the wheel, it doesn't even have to change the progression of the shock, it's simply a series of pivots and beams that connect the rear wheel in some way to the main frame and shock. Saying that horst link, vpp, DW link, canefield/karpiel linkages are the only linkage bikes is incorrect, lexicons aside, it's just not right.

syadasti · Jun 14, 2004

Well I got a little lazy there in my first post cause I wanted to be concise (as does Foes) and the point was still true - designs with a single pivot basis are the lightest...

Jm corrected my slip, but I was bored and he's a easy catch - he goes and posts a half dozen places about not finding some small part for his Hayes - I mean come on

Demo 8.. who got details?

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