I had Massaman curry with chicken, thai hot, for dinner. It was pretty good.Ok fine....I was ignoring the circus freaks....
But I used to hang out with a guy in Seattle (pro DHer) who was 6'5" and he would only buy "off the rack"
I had Massaman curry with chicken, thai hot, for dinner. It was pretty good.Ok fine....I was ignoring the circus freaks....
But I used to hang out with a guy in Seattle (pro DHer) who was 6'5" and he would only buy "off the rack"
There are standard models but these models are in a continuous state of evolution, and he does create a ton of prototypes (recent examples for those who know brass instruments: 4-valve B flat trumpet, a double-shank mouthpiece that has one cup so that two perfectly-tuned instruments could be played simultaneously--just for kicks, clearly, integrated-mouthpiece trumpets with screw-off rims, think Warburton but the rim screws to the trumpet, not the rest of the mouthpiece!). His shop is filled with tooling custom created by him and his staff and CNC machines to create the new designs.Toshi, is your trumpet making essentially making a prototype every single time he builds a trumpet? Are the industry standard fitments of trumpets constantly changing? Does he/she have to constantly take time to develop and make new tooling to be able to build trumpets to the new standards? How flexible is your trumpet maker when it comes to adapting to new ideas or way in which he doesn't already make trumpets? Do you have any idea how diverse his raw material supply lines are and whether or not he experiences material acquisition problems because of 1. his size and purchasing power and 2. a depressed supply?
BTW, I think it's a good example and I'm honestly curious about the answers to those questions. As a frame builder, I'm CONSTANTLY making new tooling that will either make my job easier or in most cases, allow me to make a better finished product.
Well if you can get the custom for the same price, lead time and warranty, then yes I'd have to say custom would be a great way to go. But I think that would be the exception to the rule.does it make sense for me to pay say $3k for a carbon frame made in Taiwan with a big name on it or the same money for a Parlee? wouldn't the better deal come with the Parlee if i can work with them on getting a custom build for the same price as off the shelf?.
Ah, but you're assuming the customers actually only derive value from the finished product. I bet there's lots of cachet, at least as perceived in certain circles, in dropping offhand that you're merely on the waiting list.I didn't realize that a 5-year lead time even existed. Seriously.....if you can wait FIVE YEARS for a BIKE....seriously? FIVE YEARS. There is all kinds of messed up there.
Perhaps it defeats the purpose of the custom frame....but if you have a customer base patient enough to wait 5 years, don't you almost owe it to your customers to HIRE SOME HELP?? Does the guy take deposits that far in advance? What happens if he dies before he gets to your bike? HOw do you get your deposit back?
Got me again......I am somewhat "results driven"........Ah, but you're assuming the customers actually only derive value from the finished product. I bet there's lots of cachet, at least as perceived in certain circles, in dropping offhand that you're merely on the waiting list.
Indeed...I have a hard time believing that, (ignoring the Shaquille O'Neals of the cycling world), it would be IMPOSSIBLE that anyone could not set up an off the rack frame to their liking. FRom Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, Yeti, Transition, Evil, Giant etc etc etc....all with slightly different geometry.....stem length, seatpost length, riser bar height, crank length.....there is no way that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a bike to fit you.It's all about image.
snipped a lot of good stuff about LEAN manufacturingI didn't realize that a 5-year lead time even existed. Seriously.....if you can wait FIVE YEARS for a BIKE....seriously? FIVE YEARS. There is all kinds of messed up there.
Anyway I am (obviously) a huge believer in lean manufacturing. and I realize it may not be 100% applicable. But it's also not 100% not applicable. Looking at the overall value stream and identifying waste, rather than dreaming up fancy new tooling MIGHT give you more significant gains.......
um........boobs.
That is a key concept too....inventory is in fact evil....for the very reason you state....and should something happen to render the parts obsolete, then it's a total waste.s I know one builder here in Portland who has at least 100 sets of dropout/chainstay assemblies sitting in a box ready to go. He's had them for at least five years and will probably have most of them five years from now. It may have seemed like an efficient use of time/money but now he has no ROI to show for the time invested and essentially has merch sitting on a shelf that's not producing $$.
."
you should be ashamed.....(SMED....single minute exchange of die....we're not quite at 1 minute....but we're trying)
The only thing that is applicable is to look at how efficiently you do things, but in a very small custom shop, the things that blow out timeframes more often than not have nothing to do with efficiency, and a vast amount of things are way out of our control.But yeah.....full on Toyota style lean is likely never going to work in a custom shop. But just some of the principles (which you do seem to be aware of) can be applicable.....
I wish I had the space and $$ for job specific tooling. I've been looking for a reasonable horizontal mill to use as a dedicated main tube mitering station but the PNW is machine starved compared to the mid west and east coast. When they show up, they're 3-4x their value. If we move back east I'll definitely get one, or four. I WISH I had a SMED situations. I have four dies that I use to bend stays (soon to be six) and one "backbone" that they bolt into. It takes a few minutes to set up. Time in between setups is one thing but seriously, most of the problems are with vendors.That is a key concept too....inventory is in fact evil....for the very reason you state....and should something happen to render the parts obsolete, then it's a total waste.
At work we work in very small batches. and we have a bazillion different products. They key is having parts partially made in kanbans. Jigs/fixtures/tooling that changes quickly (SMED....single minute exchange of die....we're not quite at 1 minute....but we're trying)
But yeah.....full on Toyota style lean is likely never going to work in a custom shop. But just some of the principles (which you do seem to be aware of) can be applicable.....
yeah that's pretty f'ed up but i think it's part of the allure and bragging rights for some of those people who are waiting to say that they'll have their Vanilla or Sachs. good for V and S to have that type of customer who's willing to wait like that but i think that there are plenty of other builders who build just as nice a bike as they do and have pretty reasonable wait times. but i think as Buck mentioned, we're all human even the builders. they get sick, have stuff that pops up in their lives just like we do. and that's just part of going with a small custom shop.I didn't realize that a 5-year lead time even existed. Seriously.....if you can wait FIVE YEARS for a BIKE....seriously? FIVE YEARS. There is all kinds of messed up there.
Perhaps it defeats the purpose of the custom frame....but if you have a customer base patient enough to wait 5 years, don't you almost owe it to your customers to HIRE SOME HELP?? Does the guy take deposits that far in advance? What happens if he dies before he gets to your bike? HOw do you get your deposit back?
Having worked for a custom builder, ...
I totally understand why it's hard to wrap your brain around a 5 year wait time. People make an emotional connection with the brand. It's not about the final product anymore. The same scenario exists in the custom guitar world, supercars...you name it. There may even be a highly sought out custom toothbrush artisan. If you make something that people want, they'll wait for it.Yes yes yes...I understand that the custom bike frame makes it...."special". I don't condemn people for buying them and I don't don't condemn builders for taking a long time. I understand the challenges ofthe supply chain. Many vendors will look at you as if you've walked into a shoe store and only want to buy the left shoe. I get that.
And i don't think that a custom guy NEEDS to expand his business....that after all would somewhat defeat the purpose. All i was saying is that a guy could hire SOME form of help. Whether it's to work a second welding station, or whtehr it's a "doctor/nurse" arrangement, where an assistant hands him tools...or something.
It was the 5 year lead time I still can't wrap my brain around. By then bikes could be obsolete and we'll all be flying around in hover cars and rocket boots.
Eve Fisher:
What I always used in my class was the example of the $3,000 shirt. 1 shirt ("poet style", with yoke, sleeves, collar) takes approximately 7 hours of hard work to sew. To weave the cloth for that shirt takes approximately 7 times the 7 hours of sewing, i.e., 49 hours of hard work. To spin the thread for the cloth for that shirt takes approximately 7 * 7 * 7, i.e., 399 hours of spinning.
So, irrespective of the time either raising the wool (and the subsequent fleecing, washing, and carding required) or the linen (and the subsequent retting, hackling, etc. required), in that one shirt you have 400 (okay, I rounded) hours of hard work. Multiply that times $7.25 (minimum wage) and you have a $2,900.00 shirt (okay, I rounded again).
After pointing out that then you'd have to figure out costs for pants or skirt, bodice or vest, jacket or cloak, stockings, etc....
I have had students who remembered that lesson for years. And it perfectly explains why the Industrial Revolution was indeed all about clothing.
When you've been building the exact same frame for 30 years, your leadtime could be 30 years and it wouldn't make a scrap of difference.It was the 5 year lead time I still can't wrap my brain around. By then bikes could be obsolete....
I'm sorry, but what is the price of the frame, and just how much am I to believe I would save over "pear" shaped tubing?We construct this baby from Columbus' Zona tubes - no silly shapes, no weird blends, just the best round stuff. Why? Because round resists torsion the best (ask any engineer) and as torsion is your enemy, a big round barrel or four blasting down the trail is gunna kill that issue better than any 'pear' shape ever will.
Of course, the other reason is that using a complete Zona tubeset is cheaper, so we can pass that savings onto you, yet still deliver the same Thylacine quality found in all our frames.
I'm a big fan of round tubing - never found any shaped tubing (aside from taper-swaged, but that's a rare beast) that I thought brought anything functional to the table.I'm sorry, but what is the price of the frame, and just how much am I to believe I would save over "pear" shaped tubing?
Didn't Moots or a Litespeed or some other ti niche maker make a ridiculously expensive custom children's bike a while back?Maybe 13 year olds with 5 grand to spend on a scooter is the next untapped niche?
I spent $90 on a Giant tricycle for my kids.Didn't Moots or a Litespeed or some other ti niche maker make a ridiculously expensive custom children's bike a while back?
Did it have a 5 year lead timeDidn't Moots or a Litespeed or some other ti niche maker make a ridiculously expensive custom children's bike a while back?
Now THAT would require some family planning......Did it have a 5 year lead time
Maybe I'm wrong, but the physical aspect of building a frame seems like the easy part. I won't pretend that I know anything about the actual geometry of a frame, but having helped multiple friends bend up tons of rock buggies, roll cages, bumpers, etc for offroading/jeeps I can't see it being ANY different to weld some tubes together to make a bike?NOTE: This comment is based on the original post. Nothing after.
Toshi, unless you're willing to learn how to draw a frame, measure and miter tubes, prep the tubes, join the tubes, check the angles, fix the problems, prep the completed frame and coat the frame, then I don't think you have any room to complain about any of this stuff.
And that's just building a basic frame.
Designing a frame that has all the right angles and actually rides well, that's a different story, and it involves choosing tubing profiles (wall thicknesses, butting lengths, tube shape) and making everything work together... which takes a lot of experience.
Talking about people "putting up with ridiculous lag times" is pathetic, it just looks like you're trying to make yourself seem superior to those who know how to build a frame.
If you're so superior, go build your own.
You don't seem to understand what it takes to make a frame by hand. You just come off like an arrogant know-nothing. I'm guessing that's not how you actually are, but it is definitely how you're coming across.
I went to UBI's framebuilding school in 2003 and spent a couple of years designing and making prototype steel hardtails. The process isn't nearly as simple as you suggest.
There used to be a framebuilder's forum on the InterWebToobz and every so often a newbie would come on there to tell the existing builders that they were lazy and arrogant, charged too much money, took too long, and weren't innovative enough.
I can't recall a single one of those "critics" ever taking the steps to learn framebuilding and coming back to share some humble pie. Maybe you could be the first.
NOTE: This comment is based on the original post. Nothing after.
Toshi, unless you're willing to learn how to draw a frame, measure and miter tubes, prep the tubes, join the tubes, check the angles, fix the problems, prep the completed frame and coat the frame, then I don't think you have any room to complain about any of this stuff.
And that's just building a basic frame.
Designing a frame that has all the right angles and actually rides well, that's a different story, and it involves choosing tubing profiles (wall thicknesses, butting lengths, tube shape) and making everything work together... which takes a lot of experience.
Talking about people "putting up with ridiculous lag times" is pathetic, it just looks like you're trying to make yourself seem superior to those who know how to build a frame.
If you're so superior, go build your own.
You don't seem to understand what it takes to make a frame by hand. You just come off like an arrogant know-nothing. I'm guessing that's not how you actually are, but it is definitely how you're coming across.
I went to UBI's framebuilding school in 2003 and spent a couple of years designing and making prototype steel hardtails. The process isn't nearly as simple as you suggest.
There used to be a framebuilder's forum on the InterWebToobz and every so often a newbie would come on there to tell the existing builders that they were lazy and arrogant, charged too much money, took too long, and weren't innovative enough.
I can't recall a single one of those "critics" ever taking the steps to learn framebuilding and coming back to share some humble pie. Maybe you could be the first.
http://lynskey.blogspot.com/2007/12/lynskey-performance-titanium-tricycle.htmlI spent $90 on a Giant tricycle for my kids.
But I think Litespeed made a Ti tricycle......
UBI has a course in it.Speaking of arrogant know-nothings.......
You are aware that Toshi is a DOCTOR right?
And nor is metal fabrication rocket science. With the right tool, material and training, it's not THAT bad.
I bet those parts are made in Tali-Kanbans....I realize that.....we have a specific product that requires that we stock a huge amount of inventory. the stuff has a 9-11 month lead time.
I'm sorry for offending your artistic sensibilities by suggesting that you might hew to a delivery schedule... like every other business out there.Talking about people "putting up with ridiculous lag times" is pathetic, it just looks like you're trying to make yourself seem superior to those who know how to build a frame.
If you're so superior, go build your own.
I don't think you're really sorry...I'm sorry for offending your artistic sensibilities.