Coil Shock Optimized AM/Enduro/Trail bikes
- Thread starter djjohnr
- Start date
Not to poop on coilers, but have there been real, documented issues with the current crop of piggyback air shocks on enduro/AM bikes? I ask because a lot of guys now run air shocks like the CCDBa and Vivid (Udi critiques aside) on their DH bikes, so I would think they would be suitable for enduro "tracks". I have a CCDBa on my "not quite DH bike" and I've never noticed any fade/heat build up issues, even on fast longer runs.
If a run is long enough you will still encounter fade issues: http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/PIT-BITS-Enduro-World-Series-Crankworx-Whistler,7730/Josh-Carlsons-RockShox-Vivid-Rear-Shock,80101/sspomer,2
Some things that will always be true:
- You need extra seals in an air shock
- When air inside a spring gets hot the spring rate changes, and the oil around it gets hot, which affects damping.
Manufacturers are always trying to get air shocks to feel as good as a coil. Why not just use a coil shock?
The air shock benefits don't really matter to me:
- Easily adjustable spring rate: I never change my spring settings unless I've gained/lost weight. I'd say that's true for most riders. Suspension designs have gotten good enough where you don't need to crank up your rate to hit the types of jumps you'll encounter on these bikes. Also, unless your running a DB you won't be able to make the offsetting damping changes you need for changing spring rate significantly.
- Weight. 1lb isn't going to make or break me. I'd definitely trade it for better small bump compliance and fade resistance.
Some things that will always be true:
- You need extra seals in an air shock
- When air inside a spring gets hot the spring rate changes, and the oil around it gets hot, which affects damping.
Manufacturers are always trying to get air shocks to feel as good as a coil. Why not just use a coil shock?
The air shock benefits don't really matter to me:
- Easily adjustable spring rate: I never change my spring settings unless I've gained/lost weight. I'd say that's true for most riders. Suspension designs have gotten good enough where you don't need to crank up your rate to hit the types of jumps you'll encounter on these bikes. Also, unless your running a DB you won't be able to make the offsetting damping changes you need for changing spring rate significantly.
- Weight. 1lb isn't going to make or break me. I'd definitely trade it for better small bump compliance and fade resistance.
Looks like a normal DHX on a linkage driven single pivot and they don't say anything about the coil shock specifically. If you like coils and enduro bikes the Nomad's progressive rate works well with a coil and my friend's with a MRP coil feels great.
I'm curious what Udi said about the VividA. I'm pretty happy with the two on my V10 and Nomad but sometimes wish for a HSC adjuster and it's lame that the damper has to come apart to change the air seals.
I'm curious what Udi said about the VividA. I'm pretty happy with the two on my V10 and Nomad but sometimes wish for a HSC adjuster and it's lame that the damper has to come apart to change the air seals.
I hear ya DJ, although I would say any shock will start to exhibit fade/compromised damping issues if you run it long and hard enough. And FWIW, I have no immediate intention of running an air shock on my DH bike (which could certainly use some serious liposuction), but that is mainly due to a higher service frequency for most air shocks.
And while I know some guys ran a coil at the Whis race, most of them didn't, including the guy who won
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/crankworx-2014-enduro-world-series-bike-checks.html
But if you're doing super long runs and not riding like me (i.e. a poon), I suppose it might be a reasonable option. However, I would also point out none of the coil shocks I know of have a climbing lock out, which I have found to be nice for long grinds up.
And while I know some guys ran a coil at the Whis race, most of them didn't, including the guy who won
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/crankworx-2014-enduro-world-series-bike-checks.html
But if you're doing super long runs and not riding like me (i.e. a poon), I suppose it might be a reasonable option. However, I would also point out none of the coil shocks I know of have a climbing lock out, which I have found to be nice for long grinds up.
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A small shaft is a smooth shaft. A sensitive shaft.
That's what I told her.
I've ridden a lot of good air shocks but still.......... Big coil dampers is good.
That's what I told her.
I've ridden a lot of good air shocks but still.......... Big coil dampers is good.
Mmmm, enduro specific shafts....sounds sexy.
I'd like to think that if they're testing prototype suspension frames they're using shocks with spring rates optimized for their linkage. While some bikes with work OK with a coil or air shock, I don't think they work as well as a bike that was designed for one or the other specifically.
Yeah, no doubt you can still win on an air shock, I was just responding to your question if there were any documented issues with air shocks and pointing out that some pros racing at Whistler felt a coil shock performed better (I'm assuming this was based on testing). Good point on the climbing lock out, although there's no reason that they couldn't put that on a coil shock.
i like what this one dude said in the comments
" Instead of ignoring basic suspension design principles and just putting the pivots in stupid locations, claiming the superior Ohlins shock will make up for any deficiencies, and completely focusing on the appearance of the bike, they actually engineered the suspension design to improve performance."
im alittle puzzled why they are using an old school shock
" Instead of ignoring basic suspension design principles and just putting the pivots in stupid locations, claiming the superior Ohlins shock will make up for any deficiencies, and completely focusing on the appearance of the bike, they actually engineered the suspension design to improve performance."
im alittle puzzled why they are using an old school shock
I agree. I love my CCDBA, but it has had more maintenance done to it than any other rear shock i've ever had. So just based on maintenance intervals, I'm ready for a coil. Not to mention the more consistent feel coils offer.
What about air forks and coil rears? Would that feel weird? Like a Pike and a Vivid?
Didn't Rock Shox market that the DebonAir was supposed to match well with the Pike?
What about air forks and coil rears? Would that feel weird? Like a Pike and a Vivid?
Didn't Rock Shox market that the DebonAir was supposed to match well with the Pike?
Nah, my Pike feels like a coil fork anyway, so I think it'd be fine. I've had really good experiences (so far) with my ccdba's from a maintenance stand point, unlike my rp3 and rp23s which seemed to get cruddy pretty quickly. But I will say the ccdba's seem relatively heavy, and if that new blue alloy spring I've been seeing is pretty light, it's probably not that much of a weight penalty.
I have a Vengeance HLR Air and an AVY SSD coil shock on my trail bike and I am not experiencing any adverse effects. Au contraire, this combo feels awesome on both downs and technical ups.
If your total rear suspension curve is fairly progressive then an air fork would match well. You also don't have the same heat issues you do with an air shock. There's still some increased seal friction, but recent forks seem to be dealing with this well.
When I clicked on this thread I was expecting to see a coil shock with a ProPedal style LSC lever. It would be easy for Cane Creek to make a coil version of the CCDBACS.
From a Cane Creek interview on Sicklines when the climb switch first came out:
Q: Could this CS switch work on a DB Coil Shock as well?
A: Yes it would (but no specific details on if this will happen or when)
I think if the EWS guys ask for it, it'll get made.
Q: Could this CS switch work on a DB Coil Shock as well?
A: Yes it would (but no specific details on if this will happen or when)
I think if the EWS guys ask for it, it'll get made.
im seeing that new jade shock on CGs 'enduro' rig.
....so you're looking for a freeride bike? 
I wouldn't mind more 180mm+ travel dh bikes that can climb on the market (proper seat height/seat tube angle/FD compatibility). But overall I'd just rather have a coil shock on any bike as I prefer their benefits over an air shock's benefits. I'd even rather have one on an XC bike.....so you're looking for a freeride bike?
I heard it through the grapevine that this is going to happen.
i think i already saw a custom db cs made by tftuned
i've run a dbcoil and 36 float 160 on my uzzi for 3+ years. only thing i've considered doing is going to a 180 float over the 160...no complaints here on the combo!
You mean like this?
That LSC lever was designed by a guy on shapeways.com:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/905260/lockout-lever-for-cane-creek-db-air-db-coil.html?materialId=23
I think that one was originally designed for the DBAir (before the CS), and the knobs are slightly different on my DBCoil, so I had to get out the Dremel to get it to work, but after some tweaking that thing is a godsend. You can spin it all the way around, so it's easy to adjust multiple turns of LSC on the fly while riding. One turn is 6 clicks. I typically have it set to 12 clicks out from all the way in for descending. So, if I'm on rolling singletrack, I'll dial it in one turn; if I'm on fire road or pavement, dial it in another turn. Super easy and makes a huge difference, and takes about a second to do with one finger while riding. I've been running it all season and love it. This is on an Enduro Expert Evo, which I use as my do-everything bike, and this makes a noticeable difference on the long trail rides.
Oh, and you don't have to buy a new shock like you would if Cane Creek ever decides to put the CS on the DBCoil. Bonus.
Always make sure you get the correct wheel sizeways tune for your shock. 27.5 requires specific tune.
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On this same theme.....does anyone know anybody that still tunes the old fox vanilla RC dampers? I found two of them I forgot I owned in my garage. Those were about the lightest coil shocks ever. One of those with a ti spring would be fun on a trail bike if they actually got some controlled damping bits.
C'mon Woo, really?
If you send them a self portrait next to a yard stick maybe they will hook you up with the Oompa Loompa price!
Yeah really. I called them last week and they said they don't work on those any more.
This is what I'm talking about
What you linked is the new ones. Plenty of people work on VANRCs, but not the vanilla RCs.
And you know I'm 5'9" right?
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