[SirChomps-a-Lot]

I just dragged my ass all the way across town to ride an indoor skatepark. I made sure to check that it was bike night. I packed pump, tube, coffee, food, camera... I was stoked.

And then I get turned away by the monkey behind the counter. "You can't ride mountain bikes here, only BMX"

I see several problems with this:

1) Where the F is the line between BMX and "mountain bikes"?

Is this a mountain bike or a bmx?

What about this?

This?

What's that, you say? A BMX has 20 inch wheels?

Here's a tricky one:

This has 20 inch wheels:

2)What is the goal behind banning "mountain bikes"

You would have a hard time convincing me that mountain bikes are a safety issue. 75% of BMXers run no brakes these days. I have two disc brakes.

You couldn't claim a mtb messes up the park. I have no pegs.

Oh, maybe a 26-inch bike just takes up 25% more space by virtue of its longer wheelbase. That is a fantastic reason to ban them.

I ride the same speed as a bmx and hit the same lines.

I can't imagine that there's any legal difference between my bike and a 20-incher that creates some kind of liability issue.

Conclusion

I am forced to conclude that what's going on here is nothing more than the basest and most reprehensible form of discrimination. Next, we'll have skateparks that don't allow people with yellow bikes, people with yellow skin, gays, people over 6' tall, or people whose name starts with the letter 'M'.

I'm tired of the discrimination. I don't care how many wheels it has or how big the wheels are. BMX, MTB, razor scooter, rollerblades, skateboards, we are all brothers! Where does this antipathy come from?

In the short term, I'm tempted to start going back to that skatepark to mess with the guy's head. Like chuck a pike on a bmx bike and see if he lets me in. Then try it with a monster T. (What? It's still a BMX. Let me in.) Or perhaps throw some Slams on my p1.

Also, feel free to post up some contraptions in this thread that blur the lines.

 

[greenblinker104]

first some questions:

1. what kind of tires do you have on said bike - street/park tires or mtb tires
2. is it a ht or fs
3. gears or single speed

people have tried to lay into me for having gears before but thats about it

**** that guy

just get a large group of 26ers and 24ers to show there is actually a community out there and hes a prick for doing that

 

[joelalamo45]

Post up the skateparks name and number just for fun...

edit. I see you are in London. Nevermind.

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

It was "bay sixty6" in London

This is my bike:

 

[nwd_26]

**** 'em. Round these parts, the skaters are cool with bikes of all kinds. My local park has the best bowl in the city, so it's mostly old-school skaters just tearing around. I've NEVER run into animosity from them, they can appreciate a dumped three like I can appreciate them grinding, and we both giver going over-vert. I've had a city councillor come by and kick me out of the park, which is really annoying. I'd have no problem moving on if the sktares didn't want me there, but they're happy to have someone to hang with.

A new park is going up soon, supposdly going to be the best in the city. There are a ton of BMXers (and MTB riders), and a BMX/MTB/Skate shop in the vicinity, but nonetheless they've barred bikes already. One of the skaters I know attended the planning meetings, said he was the only person there that ACTUALLY skated, and he was the only one who wanted bikes included. Entirely "skateboard moms".

The owner of the previously-mentioned BMX/MTB/Skate shop rides this:

And the previously-mentioend skater said this..." I hate the fruitbooters, but they have a right to be as gay as they want just like us."

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

I think it's a privately owned and run skatepark. That means that they can kick out whoever they want to kick out.

Having calmed down a little, though, I've decided to be a grown-up about this and contact them. They exist to make money. 20+ inchers have money. There really isn't any problem.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[East Bay Rich]

Recently, a public concrete park in San Jose, CA changed its rules to include mtb.
http://www.sjparks.org/Skateboard/info.asp
For a few months after the recent opening, only 20" bikes were allowed. After mtb riders and bmx cruisers began requesting access, the rules were changed. All it takes is for them to realize that they can increase profits if they open up the park to more wheel sizes. Keep us updated.

Rich

 

[jonKranked]

how exactly are there listed rules worded? that may be to your advantage. or not.

20+ inchers have money.

you must know some rare bmx'ers.

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

Lookee what I found on mtbr:

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

Ok, here's the email I sent to the park. I'll post up when I hear back.

Hello,

I'm writing to ask about your policy on "mountain bikes," as I was just turned away from riding the park due to the size of my wheels.

These days, there's not such a easily distinguishable line between BMX bikes and "mountain bikes." My bike was certainly never meant to be ridden in the mountains, and looks much like a bmx bike with bigger wheels. 26 inch riders hit the same lines as BMXers and do the same tricks. Wheel size is really just a matter of personal preference, in the same way that wheel size and durometer on a skateboard is a matter of rider preference. It is now possible to buy skate-park specific bikes with 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, and 26 inch wheels.

I have compiled a list of the benifits allowing larger-wheeled bikes could bring to your park.

- "Mountain bikes" generally have better brakes, often disc brakes front and rear, whereas a majority of BMXers ride with no brakes at all. This is a definite safety advantage, as a rider can stop on a dime to avoid collisions with other riders.

- Statistically speaking, riders of larger-wheeled bikes tend to be older. Often they are people who rode BMX when they were kids but just need a bit more stability. This brings several advantages. Older riders have more money and will spend more on snacks, pro-shop, etc. Your advertisers will pay more to place ads that reach a demographic with more disposable income. Older riders are more likely to wear more protective gear. Older riders are more mature riders and will be a good influence on younger riders, spreading stoke and respect. Parents of younger riders will be happier to have their children at your park knowing that responsible adults ride there as well.

- Mountain bikes never run pegs, which destroy ramps at a faster rate.

I would love to discuss your policy more and hear about the issue from your side. I believe that if you organized a "big wheels day" as a trial event, you would see record turnout, record profit, and record stoke.

I look forward to hearing from you,
Kurt Diegert

 

[jonKranked]

That's a very well written email. 2 things I'd like to point out tho:

-the "majority" of bmxers still run brakes. Granted there are a lot running brakeless, and that number is growing. Yet every time I ride, I see more 20" riders with brakes than without.

-Some mountain bikers do run pegs. I've seen it. I'm pretty sure that Marz also makes peg adapters for the DJ 24" fork.

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

Ok, here's the response I got. Sounds like if I played my cards right I could get him to set up a big wheels day...

I don't know what to say about the insurance thing. I should probably contact his insurer directly to see what the deal is.

Also, he doesn't seem to believe me that these 26 inch bikes are indeed designed to be ridden in skateparks. Any suggestions for a youtube video to send him a link to that shows people shredding on 26?

Hi Kurt, I understand your points made below but the simple truth is mountain bikes are not designed for the park and the park is not designed to accommodate mountain bikes, the same reason we don't allow longboards or scooters. We are predominantly a skateboard park, and allow BMX and rollerblades too. I agree that pegs cause alot of damage to the ramps and along with safety that's one of the reasons BMX bikes are limited to Tuesday nights. We don't allow BMX bikes in without brakes. We work very closely with K&C health and safety and would be in breach of our agreement as well as our insurance policy if we were to allow mountain bikes into the park

I hope you understand why you were turned away and apologise for the inconvenience caused, I'll speak to the staff and put forward the idea of a big wheels day for consideration for the future

Regards Rory

 

[tmx]

Everyone send them an email: info@baysixty6.com

Keep them clean and kind to ensure the best results. Let them know how much money they are missing out on.

The insurance comment can't be true. It just doesn't make sense. (Although insurance companies often don't make must sense..)

 

[tmx]

"It's come to our attention you are excluding "Mountain Bikes" from your park. We encourage you to reconsider your position on this. There's a great big market of riders out there on big wheels who do indeed belong on skateboard style ramps and parks. We make bikes specifically for this application.

And while I, myself, wouldn't choose to ride a full suspension bike in a park because it'd be much more work than the return for fun, those people should also be included.

Obviously as a privately owned park you can be as discriminating as you wish. But I guarantee you are missing out on valuable revenue by making an assumption that as "Mountain bikes" these rigs are not suitable for your park.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
Terry Seeberg

SuperCo, LLC
p:801-973-0656
PO Box 26372
Salt Lake City, UT 84126-0372
www.ridesuperco.com"

 

[jonKranked]

One thing that makes a park bike/ street bike vs a regular mountain bike is the geometry. Perhaps an explanation of this could help?

Point out that the difference between a regular mountain bike and a 26" bike designed for street/park usage is fundamentally the same as the difference between a regular skateboard and a longboard.

 

[tmx]

I hear ya but we don't want to encourage them to deny regular mtn bikes. And after watching someone at the BMX race last weekend absolutely throw down on an old Stump Jumper I couldn't say that a bike like that should be banned for his archaic mountain specific rig.

I understand the challenges are far greater for a newbie on a bike with traditional (?!) mtn bike geo to be "safe". And perhaps that's where the insurance thing comes in.

 

[jonKranked]

one question, when he said the park wasn't designed for mtb, was he referring to the park in its entirety, or just the ramps specifically? Either way that's sort of a bogus argument in my opinion.

 

[tmx]

I got the same reply:
"Hi Terry, I understand your points made below but the simple truth is
mountain bikes are not designed for the park and the park is not designed to
accommodate mountain bikes, the same reason we don't allow longboards or
scooters. We are predominantly a skateboard park, and allow BMX and
rollerblades too. Pegs cause alot of damage to the ramps and along with
safety that's one of the reasons BMX bikes are limited to Tuesday nights. We
don't allow BMX bikes in without brakes. We work very closely with K&C
health and safety and would be in breach of our agreement as well as our
insurance policy if we were to allow mountain bikes into the park

I hope you can now understand why we have our no mountain bikes policy

Regards Rory"

Maybe we should bombared him with video clips of these mountain bikes "not designed for the park" tearing it up at other parks.

 

[jonKranked]

Maybe they don't like mountain bikes because the CPSC isn't testing them for lead paint?

Oh wait this is England.

 

[tmx]

Ha! Yeah, that was a scare for a minute. But with further research we learned it's not applicable to us.

Just wrote the guy again requesting he fact-check his bold statement about mtn bikes not being designed for parks...etc etc.

I'd like to see SirChomps win this case.

 

[opjones]

If they allow 20's there is no reason they should not allow 26's.


Anything with Aaron Chase or Adam Hauk riding park will do.

I'm composing an email.

 

[cmc]

It's a skatepark owned/run by skateboarders.

Therefore, bikes are already on thin ice.

Sir Chomps... are there any BMX-owned bikeparks in the London area ?

 

[jonKranked]

They list pegs as one of the reasons bike access is limited. Why not just limit the use of pegs? They are easy enough to take off. More than a handful of parks in SoCal have that regulation.

 

[tmx]

Got another reply from the park:

"I'll show the attached pic to the park staff, if the case being that these bikes are made for park use rather than mountain terrain then we may reconsider our bmx policy. However pure mountain bikes would still be unable to be used

R"

Can't claim the win just yet for SirChomp. But I encourage all of you who are dealing with this type of issue to contact frame manufacturers who make this type of bike with a request to contact park operators. It will be helpful if you also include specifics to your situation and contact information for the park.

BTW, I understand this is a skatepark run by skateboarders. Which is cool and totally their right to exclude bikes. But if they let BMX in, it doesn't make sense they wouldn't let the bigger wheeled bikes in that are made for this application.

Good luck Chompers!

 

[cmc]

nice work, superco.

 

[opjones]

Here is the email i just sent along.....





Good day Sir,



I have received sad news that your park has excluded larger wheeled bikes access, but still granting 20? and smaller wheeled bikes into your park. While I may agree that cross country mountain bikes may not have a place in your park, there is a large market out there that build Park/DJ specific ?mountain bikes? that would fit perfectly into a ?skatepark?. Just for reference I?ll run down the companies that build these bikes off the top of my head, Specialized, Giant, Trek, Kona, Haro, Black Market, AtomLab, SuperCo, TonicFab, Doberman, Simple, Union Street, Jamis, Mongose, Gary Fisher, Scott, I could go on further, but I think you get the point. A quick internet search will give you thousands of videos showing mtb?s in parks and having no issue, and you?ll get thousands of videos showing bmx and mtb?s riding side by side in the same park. Would you turn away Andreu Lacondeguy or Timo Pretzel if they would want to ride their 26? tires in your park? If you have tight transitions or mostly skate board features don?t worry, a mtb?er can adapt just like a bmx?er can, and if they can?t they just won?t come back. Hopefully you?ll rethink you ruling against larger diameter tired bikes into your park, their money is just as good as anyone else?s and include no extra risk.





http://vimeo.com/2196668

Thank you,

xxxx xxxxxx

 

[jonKranked]

Got another reply from the park:

"I'll show the attached pic to the park staff, if the case being that these bikes are made for park use rather than mountain terrain then we may reconsider our bmx policy. However pure mountain bikes would still be unable to be used

R"

Can't claim the win just yet for SirChomp. But I encourage all of you who are dealing with this type of issue to contact frame manufacturers who make this type of bike with a request to contact park operators. It will be helpful if you also include specifics to your situation and contact information for the park.

BTW, I understand this is a skatepark run by skateboarders. Which is cool and totally their right to exclude bikes. But if they let BMX in, it doesn't make sense they wouldn't let the bigger wheeled bikes in that are made for this application.

Good luck Chompers!

Good to see that they are at least open to re-evaluating their rules.

 

[cmc]

Limeys listening to Yanks in a squab with an Aussie ?

Where's the f-ing discrimination !?

 

[opjones]

Some more dialog......



His reply.
"Hi Tim, as I have pointed out to Terry from SuperCo and Kurt Diegert,

I understand your points made below but the simple truth is mountain bikes are not designed for the park and the park is not designed to accommodate mountain bikes, the same reason we don't allow longboards or scooters. We are predominantly a skateboard park, and allow BMX and rollerblades too. Pegs cause alot of damage to the ramps and along with safety that's one of the reasons BMX bikes are limited to Tuesday nights. We don't allow BMX bikes in without brakes. We work very closely with K&C health and safety and would be in breach of our agreement as well as our insurance policy if we were to allow mountain bikes into the park

I hope you can now understand why we have had a no mountain bikes policy for the past several years

R"












and then my reply, hopefully we are getting somewhere, if not then hopefully there is a better understanding that MTB can ride park just like everyone else.






Thank you for your reply Rory,

Just so the point is not lost, Kurt wants to ride his Park/DJ specific mountain bike at the same time as the BMX crowd. Nothing extra or special, he would just like to ride with the other 2-wheeled crowd.

I have to strongly disagree with in regards to "mountain bikes are not designed for the park". Like I stated in my previous email, there are many brand name mountain bike companies that make a specific park/DJ mountain bike. I've included a link to a picture of my park/DJ/street bike. I see no substance in your reply that would indicate why you do not allow mountain bikes. Your answer that the park is not designed to it accommodate MTB's is complete nonsense, a park rider takes what they are given and feeds off of that, if 20" wheels can ride it, so can 26". I've looked at your website along with pictures of your park, and I would have to say I could spend hours in there riding different lines.


I don't understand how your health and safety, along with your insurance company are so strong armed against allowing a large wheeled bike into your park. I think a phone call or email K&C health and safety would help me better understand what the difference between a 20 inch wheeled bike and a 26 inch wheeled bike in a park would constitute such a rule in their policy. Could you possibly pass along your insurance policy holder so I can contact them and better understand their policy against larger wheeled bikes also?


http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u201/opjones/AtomLab Prototype/Bike2008021.jpg?t=1234288550



Thank you,
Tim

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

Woah,

You guys got busy while I was out riding at a good ol' outdoor skatepark. Nice work!

I'm not sure if there are any bmx-owned parks in London -- I just moved here. I know there are some elsewhere in the UK.

Remember to keep it super professional if you contact the dude! Think of him as someone who built a ramp in his backyard. He can't be convinced to let bikes in 'on principle' because it's his backyard and he can do whatever he wants.

That said, if he sees that 26ers are chill, he might well decide to let some in.

Funny story: I'm actually moving to Brighton on Monday. Getting 26ers let in wasn't about me riding as much as righting a wrong in the world and doing my good turn for the day.

 

[tmx]

LOL! You can't move! We're helping you get your two wheels in that door. haha.

Totally agree we should keep emails to folks like this park professional. And enlightening.

Random curiosity, I wonder what the success rate is on the petition method of getting these things resolved.

 

[opjones]

His reply.....

Several years ago we allowed BMX, skateboards and rollerbladers to all ride together in the park, one particular morning when Health and Safety were carying out a routine inspection of the park they witnessed an accident involving a bmxer and a rollerblader, the rollerblader was hopitalised with a broken leg, the bmxer showed no remorse and said to health and safety he deserved it he was in my way, since then we have had to enforce strict bmx rules to adhere to local health and safety demands, if we were to have any serious accidents involving mountain bikes our insurance would see it as a breach of our agreement and not honour any claims.

As I said to Kurt Diegert I will bring this up in a skatepark meeting we are having this week to hear the staffs views on the subject, if you could send me another link to the photo as the one you sent does not show up

R



And my last reply.....


Thank you for taking time out of your day to address this.

The link is just broken; add both pieces together and it is correct, here it is again, it looks like the margins on the page are causing this so I've also attached the picture.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u201/opjones/AtomLab Prototype/Bike2008021.jpg?t=1234288550


Thanks,

Tim







So it looks like we at least brought it to their attention, made a good case and it's in their hands now. But if another MTB'er wants to ride their park, they at least have a little knowledge about the subject now.

 

[BikeSATORI]

good thread.

 

[opjones]

Great news, nice job everyone!


Hi Guys, after discussing the inclusion of Park/DJ specific bikes in the
park with the rest of the staff we are in agreement that they can be used on
a Tuesday night BMX session. We have let some in on Tuesdays already,the
reason you were turned away was proabaly due to the fact that the park may
have been too busy or it was a non BMX session. Anyway you're welcome to
join the other bikers on a Tuesday 5pm to 10pm for an exclusive bike session

Regards Rory




And my final reply.....



Thank you again for addressing this issue Rory. We are very grateful for your efforts and also to the park management for their understanding of the situation.


Thanks
Tim





Now, next time I'm in London I'll hit this place up :biggrin:

 

[jonKranked]

and there was much rejoicing.


yaaayyyyy

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

Yes, excellent work everyone.

Got to get on some UK forums and let chaps know the jolly good news.

 

[STPIZZAY]

Just go buy some gravel at your local hardware store, sneak in at night, and spread the love all over the bowls and ramps, anything flat really. Skaters love that.

 

[Sonic Reducer]

Great news, nice job everyone!


Hi Guys, after discussing the inclusion of Park/DJ specific bikes in the
park with the rest of the staff we are in agreement that they can be used on
a Tuesday night BMX session. We have let some in on Tuesdays already,the
reason you were turned away was proabaly due to the fact that the park may
have been too busy or it was a non BMX session. Anyway you're welcome to
join the other bikers on a Tuesday 5pm to 10pm for an exclusive bike session

Regards Rory




And my final reply.....



Thank you again for addressing this issue Rory. We are very grateful for your efforts and also to the park management for their understanding of the situation.


Thanks
Tim





Now, next time I'm in London I'll hit this place up :biggrin:

you could have avoided all that heartache by riding a 20"!:biggrin:

 

[Patan-DH]

Good thread! well done!