Avalanche kits for the Pike

ChrisRobin · Mar 18, 2014

I read over the page and it mentions that since RS is using a similar cartridge in the Pike (similar to Avalanche), an upgrade kit is all that's really needed??? Not sure why they would even put time and $$$ into a full cartridge system at that point then.

I had asked him if there was a plan on making a cartridge for the Dorado. The response I got was Manitou was using a similar damping system, therefore no cartridge was going to be made; only mid-valve upgrades and overall revolving was offered.

Craig Seekins · Mar 18, 2014

Verskis said:
Interesting, Avalanche seems to offer both, a full open bath damper for the Pike, and also a piston kit for the original Charger damper:
http://avalanchedownhillracing.com/Rock Shox/Pike Open Bath Cartridge Kit.htm

While I am really happy with my Avy open bath damper on my Boxxer, I don't really get why would anyone spend more to get the open bath damper over the piston kit.
Probably even the piston kit may not be a significant upgrade over the stock Charger damper if the stock Pike is as good as people say it is (I don't have one, yet), but I would still like to hear opinions if people have got the piston kit for their Pikes. The high speed adjustment would be really nice instead of the pedal/lockout adjustment.

The real advantage of the open bath is maintenance, with the charger damper the oil can easily get aerated over a very short time, this will require bleeding or if the oil is too foamy it will need to be replaced. The o-rings and rod seal should be replaced if this happens too often. The other advantage of our open bath is the air over oil creates pressure as the fork compresses and charges the damper oil to prevent cavitation(vapor bubbles forming at the valving locations) We are also able to add our optional ABS system to the open bath cartridge.

The stock charger damper needs different valve/pistons to effectively revalve them, the stock ones use very large ports that only require a very small shim lift to achieve full flow(kind of on/off or a threshold style valving) created by the rod/tube arrangement. We are able to use our open bath piston/valves and midvalves along with our extensive database of set-ups to revalve the charger damper for more specific riding conditions which allows the adjustments to be used more fine tuning as compared to course tuning and settling on a final setting with the wide range of the stock charger damper. We are also able to convert the Pedal/Lock-out into a high speed adjuster for more useful fine tuning. It also is less money than the open bath conversion.

Craig Seekins · Mar 19, 2014

Verskis said:
Craig, thanks for the explanations!

Are you talking about the compression piston here?
To my untrained eye the stock rebound piston looks pretty normal, only the compression piston looks like it has really large ports.

Yes, the compression valve has 2 very large ports, the rebound piston has 3 slighty smaller ports, but it is more about the flow area created as the shims begin to lift off the face. The stock ports are shaped to maximize flow for very small shim movements.

OGRipper · Mar 19, 2014

Craig Seekins said:
The real advantage of the open bath is maintenance, with the charger damper the oil can easily get aerated over a very short time, this will require bleeding or if the oil is too foamy it will need to be replaced.

Craig, can you explain this a little further? My understanding is that one of the advantages of a closed/bladder system like the Charger is that the air and oil don't mix, i.e., no aeration.

Craig Seekins · Mar 19, 2014

OGRipper said:
Craig, can you explain this a little further? My understanding is that one of the advantages of a closed/bladder system like the Charger is that the air and oil don't mix, i.e., no aeration.

In theory they should not mix, but when they do it causes a big problem in the damping. Any entrapped air after changing the oil or a pinched or damaged o-ring can contribute to the air contamination. We are not saying that sealed dampers are no good, just that they are a bit more maintenance for the added benefit and one needs to be very careful to prevent these issues. Since the Charger damper has no pressure on the oil, (kind of ironic since it is called the Charger damper) the cartridge rod seals do a good job of preventing the oil from leaking out, but they can also allow air to be sucked in as they wear, or as the rod flexes, or on high speed hits when higher damping forces are used in the pedal and lock-out modes. Essentially the pressure down stream of the rebound piston draws a vacuum and the rod seal can bend backwards and suck in a bit of air on each stroke. This is an another reason to add a charging sleeve around the bladder to maintain this positive pressure. As our web page describes:

Why a Nitrogen Sleeve is needed?
All dampers can cavitate when the pressure behind the piston drops below the vapor pressure of the fluid, this is why shocks are charged with nitrogen to keep the pressure applied to the fluid preventing this from happening. Most forks are filled with oil and have a smaller air volume that gets compressed as the fork compresses, this naturally works well in open bath preventing cavitation. For some reason MTB suspension companies are not aware of this issue and have been designing sealed dampers with no exterior way to increase pressure on the oil, i.e. they dont put enough outside oil to cause this ramp up. MX suspension companies realize potential cavitation issue exists and design If the free bleed is big enough the pressure does not drop behind the piston. This is all good, but if you dont create enough damping to hold the fork up on low speed conditions then what is the point. The issue is the addition of midvalves to prevent fork dive, can easily create low pressure behind the piston, especially if the main compression valve is soft or has a lot of free bleed, this is where the nitrogen charged bladder will prevent the pressure from dropping, it does not add any damping force it just adds to the air spring rate so you might run 2-3 psi less than the stock damper.

OGRipper · Mar 20, 2014

Thanks for the reply Craig, very helpful. I just got a Pike and, consistent with all the rave reviews, out-of-the-box performance is pretty damn outstanding. Time will tell if maintenance/cavitation becomes an issue. If so, it's good to know you've got it covered.

profro · Mar 20, 2014

Craig,

I currently have a 2010 Lyrik and have been looking at your cart vs a new Pike and can't make up my mind.

What are the advantages of your Lyirk damper vs the new charger?

manhattanprjkt83 · Mar 20, 2014

why???

profro · Mar 21, 2014

Because it dives in the turns and drives me crazy.

manhattanprjkt83 · Mar 21, 2014

oh no i meant why would you mess with the pike, its probably one of the best forks of the showroom floor ever built.

profro · Mar 21, 2014

manhattanprjkt83 said:
oh no i meant why would you mess with the pike, its probably one of the best forks of the showroom floor ever built.

Not sure if that is directed at me, but I wasn't suggesting that. However Craig did point out a few items that could be improved in the Pike.

My biggest complaint with every RS fork I have ever owned it that I can not get them to feel like they did right out of the box. That has to be due to incorrect oil volumes or something else I could effect during a rebuild, but what? I have rebuilt my Lyrik numerous times using the oil volume published by RS but just can't get the same as new performance.

I'm worried of the same effect on the Pike. Feels great and then after the first rebuild not so much. I want to believe a Avy cart would have more consistent performance from service to service and thus drive me to update my Lyrik versus getting a new Pike.

kidwoo · Mar 21, 2014

There must be something I'm missing in the diagram on the Avy site. The damper looks pretty straightforward with the rod displacement volume being taken up in the gas head that sits over the damper piston yeah? The cartridge is sealed so that air volume is going to get pressurized as the oil breaks down and starts off gassing. These would need to be burped occasionally to maintain consistent performance I would think. How tough is that to do?

And.....I don't really get how this is any better than the charger setup even in terms of maintenance because of this. Wouldn't the open bath cart be just as susceptible to cavitation or even more so? It just seems to me the closed system N2 sleeve upgrade would be the better option (by a long shot).

edit: actually on that last point, I just noticed the price difference.....nevermind, carry on

Craig Seekins · Mar 21, 2014

kidwoo said:
There must be something I'm missing in the diagram on the Avy site. The damper looks pretty straightforward with the rod displacement volume being taken up in the gas head that sits over the damper piston yeah? The cartridge is sealed so that air volume is going to get pressurized as the oil breaks down and starts off gassing. These would need to be burped occasionally to maintain consistent performance I would think. How tough is that to do?

And.....I don't really get how this is any better than the charger setup even in terms of maintenance because of this. Wouldn't the open bath cart be just as susceptible to cavitation or even more so? It just seems to me the closed system N2 sleeve upgrade would be the better option (by a long shot).

The oil level is missing, if it was shown it would be above the red cartridge cap about half way up the rod. This is what is referred to as air over oil (open bath) there are no seals on the cartridge rod cap, just a bushing the guides the rod, this seals the oil with a hydrodynamic boundary so it essentially never needs replacing. Gravity keeps the open bath cartridge bleed of air, and any air bubbles entrapped in the oil get compressed as the air over oil volume decreases when the fork compresses. Again we are not saying the Charger damper is bad, it is the best damper out there right now, we are offering our open bath replacement cartridge or a modification kit to improve the performance by offering a revalving kit, midvalves, and high speed compression adjustment. The Nitrogen sleeve is an added option to add pressure to the damper to prevent cavitation and improve the performance over time by keeping the damper oil free of air bubbles and vapor formation. All MX sealed dampers provide this feature, it is either a pressure spring assisted IFP(like our Fox 40 damper (http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/Fox%2040/Fox%2040%20RC.htm) or a nitrogen bladder system.

kidwoo · Mar 21, 2014

A gotcha.....a 'real' open bath

Yeah I totally misunderstood what I was looking at.

Thanks for all the info.

Craig Seekins · Mar 21, 2014

Verskis said:
Does it make any practical difference if the nitrogen sleeve was pressurized with nitrogen or air?

No difference, just easy for shops to do cause they can regulate the pressure easier, and our needle charging system is all set-up on the nitrogen tank, it only takes about 20 psi to do the job, no worries about pressure build up due to heat.

amrgb · Mar 22, 2014

Craig,

Thanks a lot for you insight.

There's one thing I'm curious about going to an open bath damper. Since these trail forks have minute amounts of oil to lube the bushings, even though the damper side is taken care of for a whole year, you still have to perform maintenance on the spring side quite frequently. What is the best approach for doing it in these single crown forks without wasting all the oil in the damper side?

Craig Seekins · Mar 22, 2014

amrgb said:
Craig,

Thanks a lot for you insight.

There's one thing I'm curious about going to an open bath damper. Since these trail forks have minute amounts of oil to lube the bushings, even though the damper side is taken care of for a whole year, you still have to perform maintenance on the spring side quite frequently. What is the best approach for doing it in these single crown forks without wasting all the oil in the damper side?[/QUOTE

Just flip the fork upside down and remove the lowers, the oil and the cartridge will remain in the stanchion and you will be able to maintain the air side without loosing any oil.

Udi · Mar 22, 2014

profro said:
My biggest complaint with every RS fork I have ever owned it that I can not get them to feel like they did right out of the box. That has to be due to incorrect oil volumes or something else I could effect during a rebuild, but what? I have rebuilt my Lyrik numerous times using the oil volume published by RS but just can't get the same as new performance.

Care to elaborate on exactly what you feel changes?
Performance could refer to a myriad of things.

amrgb · Mar 23, 2014

Craig Seekins said:
Just flip the fork upside down and remove the lowers, the oil and the cartridge will remain in the stanchion and you will be able to maintain the air side without loosing any oil.

Never thought of that one. Thanks a lot.

I still have to take care of converting my 34 talas to float. After that I'll contact you to discuss the cartridge.

profro · Mar 23, 2014

Rides lower in the travel and dives in corners are my major complaints. I am a brute of a rider and I still can't run more than 1-2 clicks of HSC. I have gone a little +/- of the published oil volume and still can't get the performance I want or at least felt like I got right out of the box.

I run anywhere from 10-18 clicks of Rebound, 3-10 clicks of LSC and have tried 0-6 clicks of HSC.

missingLink · Mar 24, 2014

Craig,
Will an Avy lyrik cartridge retrofit into the new pike with an adaptor kit?
I'm considering picking up a pike and want to know my options if it doesn't ride as nice as my avy'd lyrk.

Craig Seekins · Mar 24, 2014

missingLink said:
Craig,
Will an Avy lyrik cartridge retrofit into the new pike with an adaptor kit?
I'm considering picking up a pike and want to know my options if it doesn't ride as nice as my avy'd lyrk.

Yes, changes are the adaptor arbor(gold lower piece and bolt) and the cartridge rod length.

woodyak · Apr 3, 2014

manhattanprjkt83 said:
oh no i meant why would you mess with the pike, its probably one of the best forks of the showroom floor ever built.

Well the Pike is a solid fork, probably the best out of the box I've ever owned, but it ain't perfect. I got one as soon as they came out and marveled at how plush it feels and how you can't seem to bottom it out. When I really started pushing the fork I noticed that the midstroke went from adequate to not that great. For basic trail riding it's fine but when you start hitting bigger drops and steep rollers it dives pretty heavily. Not as bad as the 34 but not nearly as good as a 36 or Lyrik. I also noticed that I had a hard time popping with it. I felt like it was sucking up my energy when preloading. It was bad enough that I put on a new Float36RC2. This solved the diving and preloading issues but I immediately noticed how sticky the fork felt and I bottomed it out like crazy, unless I put too much air in it. So I gave Craig a call...

Two hours later with my head spinning from technical fork speak I ended up going for the Pike open bath cartridge. And I gotta say I'm very impressed. The fork is uber plush yet the midstroke is quite firm. I'd say firmer than the 36. Hitting rollers and drops is no longer an issue. It rides pretty high in its travel which takes some getting used to as with most forks I've owned I had to run lower than recommended pressure. Also, when you get out of the saddle and mash on the pedals the fork doesn't move. All those upper body efforts are transmitted to the bike instead of being absorbed. Overall I'm very happy with the fork now and the 36 is being sold.

rollertoaster · Oct 16, 2015

My charger seems to have started sucking air. I'm considering an open bath cart to replace it.
Woodyak, did you get the abs and hsb options. I'm really not sure what options I "need".

Avalanche kits for the Pike

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Chimp

Monkey

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back alley ripper

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back alley ripper

Turbo Monkey

Rusty Trombone

Turbo Monkey

Rusty Trombone

Turbo Monkey

Artisanal Tweet Curator

Chimp

Artisanal Tweet Curator

Monkey

Chimp

Chimp

Chimp

RM Chief Ornithologist

Chimp

Turbo Monkey

Chimp

Chimp

Chimp

Monkey