Annoying Hayes mystery problem

Rockland · Jun 6, 2004

I run into this same problem quite often. Maybe this will work. I've done it several times with success. You need to fool the timing port in the master cyl. To do this you need a feeler gauge set. What you end up doing is much like the business card trick, but this way you can both increase and decrease lever throw by the ammount you want. To decrease lever throw you need to create a stack of gauges ever so slightly thinner than the rotor. To increase lever throw the stack needs to be slightly thicker than the rotor. With the wheel out, the pistons pushed back in, and the pads in place, put the stack of gauges between the pads ( be shure the gauges that touch the pads are free of oil ). Pump lever to advance pads. You may need to try several itterations with different thickness to get it just right. Remember to center caliper over rotor after. Baring any fluid related problems, or other wierd issues, this may be the ticket. Worth a try?

Jesus · Jun 6, 2004

Have you tried screwing out the little set screw on the lever?

mcA896 · Jun 6, 2004

countdown until brian HCM....

10...

Rockland · Jun 6, 2004

Bulldog said:
Say I wanted to increase the throw of my front (tighter) brake. Would your method be any different from simply pushing the pistons back all the way and doing the business card trick, but with thicker cards? I just today tried the card trick, but with thicker cards, pumped the lever a bunch, but as soon as I pulled the cards out it reset around the thickness of the rotor to the tight feel of before. I've never understood how that trick works on self-adjusting brakesets after the cards are removed?

And I can't really tighten my rear brake more as there is almost rubbing as it is. I think it's more related to the brakes pushing different amounts of fluid for the same amount of lever pull. Whether that's internal or caused by the hoses I don't know. Yes/no?

Using thicker cards is along the right lines (or doubling up on cards), but you need the sensitivity from being able to change the thickness by itty bitty amounts. Little changes in distance the piston moves translates into big changes at the lever. I've never had real good luck with the cards. Could be many things to do with the cards: they could be compressible by some degree, or the stock thickness of paper could be different between 2 of the same card.

GravityFreakTJ · Jun 6, 2004

mcA896 said:
countdown until brian HCM....

10...

9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1........ BUY HOPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rockland · Jun 6, 2004

FWIW, the technique with cards, or feeler gauges, assumes that the brake doesn't have any problems with the bleed or any seal issues.
Most rear brakes I've felt had more lever throw to engage. Quite often they felt this way because the longer line, and the route it takes, leaves more places for air to hide, and the longer line it's self may have more swell (volumetric expansion).

Slacker · Jun 6, 2004

Bulldog said:
Why? It simply adjust how far the lever rests from the bars.

Not true. It also will effect modulation/pad engagement. Give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised. Just write down how many turns of the screw (and direction), just in case you want to go back.

Btw, I have the exact same "problem" as you, except I have more throw with the front, which I now like much more. And I also am running Goodridges on a set of Purples.

My other bike (xc) has hair trigger levers, which I used to like, but after setting the Purples on the DH rig, I'm see the benefit of more throw, at least for my taste. But I'm also learning a whole different way braking on my DH rig... more of a on/off deal as opposed to constant feathering.

Slacker · Jun 6, 2004

Bulldog said:
Been there, done that, doesn't work for me. Actually several Hayes techs snickered at me when I asked about that screw and engagement. According to them you are wrong and it does nothing for engagement point. My experience would agree with them. I actually tried that tonight again because I'd run out of option and engagement was the same regardless of position. And even if it did, I like to have my levers an equal distance from the bar, which they now are. Just the engagement is far from enough from equal to bother me.

Yeah, I was just thinking about what I wrote, and you're correct. It just changes the lever position, which makes it seem like the engagement position. So the closer to the bar, the less power because the piston in the caliper will not be travel as much.

Anyway, good luck finding a solution.

kidwoo · Jun 6, 2004

I had this same little "spat" with zedro a while back. You have old brakes that have seen a lot of use I'm assuming. No matter how much you vary the total fluid volume in the system or reset the pad position, the brakes always end up feeling the same?

My solution which would be enough to get me riding and not worrying about it would be to adjust the allen screw (2.5mm on yours, 2mm on newer ones). Regardless of how much an arrogant little tech wants to laugh at you, none of these guys designed or adapted the system from the moto precursors. My experience with hayes techs at races was never very good incidently. I've had several issues, none of which could be solved buy these guys when I started riding their brakes years ago. They seemed to know what was in thier company's literature very well and that's about it. This was actually one of those problems. BUT, think about it this way. Your piston will hit it's engagement point somewhere in it's throw. From that fixed point, adjusting the lever postition can set the levers to a spot where they are in the same place as each other AT engagement.

I know this potentially puts them at a different position at rest but go ahead and go the full range of that adjustment screw. It's really not that much. The point where the levers feel even at engagement is much more important than where they feel at rest.........at least to some people (me).

If you don't like the uneven levers at rest..........Another related solution is to change the o-rings and pistons in the caliper. After screwing around with cards and spacers, sometimes your pads just don't use the "memory" the way their supposed to. Sounds like part of your problem at least? The fact is that as soon as you remove whatever cards you have in place, the pads have to contact the rotor and that's the position they retract from. It's not like there's a computer telling the caliper/pad/fluid that memory is set only within the first few pumps and everything after that is supposed to stay referenced to what occured with the cards in place. The o-ring/piston kits are cheap. I've heard varying views on what actually sets the memory on them but I know that every time I've replaced these in a caliper, the brakes work like new........literally. The pads don't creep in from the set postion and they seem to take your initial setup in regards to caliper position much more quickly.

my 2 cents.

Toshi · Jun 6, 2004

get razor rock levers?

KleinMp99 · Jun 7, 2004

Get a set of shimano disc brakes. They are the best. I have grown to hate hayes over the past few years.....mainly because they dont really ever work. :thumb:

Brian HCM#1 · Jun 7, 2004

Bulldog said:
And don't you dare mention Avid Juicy's.

Like that would ever happen

:evil:

Actually I think the Goodridge lines make it a little more difficult to blead, well at leat for Acadian :mumble:

Brian HCM#1 · Jun 7, 2004

Oh yeah..............................BUY HOPES!!!!!! :blah:

MMike · Jun 7, 2004

Brian HCM#1 said:
Actually I think the Goodridge lines make it a little more difficult to blead, well at leat for Acadian :mumble:

Oh you're gonna git a beat-down.....

binary visions · Jun 7, 2004

Can someone explain why the business card trick supposedly works? First off, I've never been able to get it to work for me. Business cards in, pump up, business cards out, and the next time you squeeze the lever, the pads are right back where you started. I've tried it with some little metal shims used for gapping spark plugs too, so the problem isn't that the cards are compressing.

It makes sense why it happens - they're self adjusting. But so why do so many people claim it works? DOES it work? Why? And why can't I get it to work?

Brian HCM#1 · Jun 7, 2004

binary visions said:
Can someone explain why the business card trick supposedly works? First off, I've never been able to get it to work for me. Business cards in, pump up, business cards out, and the next time you squeeze the lever, the pads are right back where you started. I've tried it with some little metal shims used for gapping spark plugs too, so the problem isn't that the cards are compressing.

It makes sense why it happens - they're self adjusting. But so why do so many people claim it works? DOES it work? Why? And why can't I get it to work?

The card shouldn't fall out if you hold them

Did you adjust them while squeezing the lever?

binary visions · Jun 7, 2004

Brian HCM#1 said:
The card shouldn't fall out if you hold them Did you adjust them while squeezing the lever?

Eh? The cards didn't fall out. You have to take 'em out to ride, remember?

Brian HCM#1 · Jun 7, 2004

binary visions said:
Eh? The cards didn't fall out. You have to take 'em out to ride, remember?

Oh yeah :mumble:

thaflyinfatman · Jun 7, 2004

binary visions said:
Can someone explain why the business card trick supposedly works? First off, I've never been able to get it to work for me. Business cards in, pump up, business cards out, and the next time you squeeze the lever, the pads are right back where you started. I've tried it with some little metal shims used for gapping spark plugs too, so the problem isn't that the cards are compressing.

It makes sense why it happens - they're self adjusting. But so why do so many people claim it works? DOES it work? Why? And why can't I get it to work?

Try turning the lever upwards and undoing the reservoir cap (as though you're going to bleed the brake), push the pistons back out, squeeze the lever slowly until the pistons have moved in slightly, then SLOWLY release the lever back to its original position. Top up the reservoir if need be, then close the reservoir off and repeat as necessary. This *should* decrease lever throw, obviously to increase it you do the same thing but you push the pistons out with the reservoir open, but don't squeeze the lever back in. It's fiddly and takes a while to get right, but it can be done.

slcpunk21 · Jun 7, 2004

kidwoo said:
..........Another related solution is to change the o-rings and pistons in the caliper.

This is one of the best things to try before all else! the o-rings have gone bad on so many of my hayes brakes (even the ones I got from you bulldog) Once I change them all works well on all my brakes!

What happens is that the o-ring leaks just enough to not let fluid out, but allow air in. (granted some times fluid slightly leaks out, even thoug you'd probably never see it) So you can bleed the brakes a million times and get a solid feeling lever.. but after a few squeezes a slight amount of air gets in the system, and most of the time it honestly doesn't feel much if any different than it did after just being blead.

I have yet to change piston/piston seals. But the o-rings I have changed at least once on every brake I own.

I unfortunately had to find this out after working on a customers bike and could not get it to work properly no matter how often I blead them.

Just outa curiousity how are you bleeding them? From the lever down or from the caliper up? Some people do it from the lever down and I honestly just don't like doing it that way.

I go from the caliper up that's the way the air naturally wants to move, so why not let it. I also turn the lever straigth up and down to allow the air to exit easier instead of leaving it at an angle.. .to easy for air to get trapped in it that way.

Hope this helps a slight bit!

binary visions · Jun 7, 2004

thaflyinfatman said:
It's fiddly and takes a while to get right, but it can be done.

Okay, well, I understand how changing the amount of fluid in the reservoir can change the lever throw. However, I can't even count the number of times I've heard the question "My brakes rub. How can I fix this?" and the answer:

"Push the pistons out. Put two business cards on either side of the rotor. Pump the brake lever. Remove the business cards, and it should be all set."

Nothing about adding fluid or undoing the cap. So I assume that means there's just a piece of misinformation kicking around, eh? Not the first time... Was just curious if I was crazy.

BMXman · Jun 7, 2004

binary visions said:
Okay, well, I understand how changing the amount of fluid in the reservoir can change the lever throw. However, I can't even count the number of times I've heard the question "My brakes rub. How can I fix this?" and the answer:

"Push the pistons out. Put two business cards on either side of the rotor. Pump the brake lever. Remove the business cards, and it should be all set."

Nothing about adding fluid or undoing the cap. So I assume that means there's just a piece of misinformation kicking around, eh? Not the first time... Was just curious if I was crazy.

It works every time for me....I don't question why or how it works I'm just glad it does...sort of like my computer :think:

Curb Hucker · Jun 7, 2004

on the topic of brakes.... Bulldog you missed a good time at White Knuckle, too bad you couldnt make it. Isnt Devils Head next weekend, are you going to go?

slcpunk21 · Jun 7, 2004

ViolentVolante said:
on the topic of brakes.... Bulldog you missed a good time at White Knuckle, too bad you couldnt make it. Isnt Devils Head next weekend, are you going to go?

devils head is next weekend and you didn't tell me?

That's it... why don't you meet me at my house and I can not take you again!

You got some details on that course?

SilentJ · Jun 7, 2004

binary visions said:
Okay, well, I understand how changing the amount of fluid in the reservoir can change the lever throw. However, I can't even count the number of times I've heard the question "My brakes rub. How can I fix this?" and the answer:

"Push the pistons out. Put two business cards on either side of the rotor. Pump the brake lever. Remove the business cards, and it should be all set."

Nothing about adding fluid or undoing the cap. So I assume that means there's just a piece of misinformation kicking around, eh? Not the first time... Was just curious if I was crazy.

From my experience with hayes brakes is that the business card trick is for centering the pads on the rotor, not pushing the pads out for engagement setup.

Ive actually been having the same problem with my brakes in that the rear one has very little throw (what I like) and the front one has too much. I think im gonna try pushing the pistons out a little further than they are already and re-bleeding. Im going on the theory that this will allow more fluid into the system and decreasing lever throw...of course I could be on crack.

binary visions · Jun 7, 2004

SilentJ said:
From my experience with hayes brakes is that the business card trick is for centering the pads on the rotor, not pushing the pads out for engagement setup.

You don't need the business cards for that. You can do that by clamping the pads on the rotors.

SilentJ · Jun 7, 2004

binary visions said:
You don't need the business cards for that. You can do that by clamping the pads on the rotors.

You'd think, but I have had a few times when they wouldnt center themselves and the card thing worked for centering them. :confused:

I wish I had some Razor Rock levers.

thaflyinfatman · Jun 7, 2004

binary visions said:
Okay, well, I understand how changing the amount of fluid in the reservoir can change the lever throw. However, I can't even count the number of times I've heard the question "My brakes rub. How can I fix this?" and the answer:

"Push the pistons out. Put two business cards on either side of the rotor. Pump the brake lever. Remove the business cards, and it should be all set."

Nothing about adding fluid or undoing the cap. So I assume that means there's just a piece of misinformation kicking around, eh? Not the first time... Was just curious if I was crazy.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me either. I do use the business card thing to centre the caliper on the rotor though, because the pads in their resting state will naturally centre the caliper that way, instead of sticky pistons or anything being able to affect it.

I wish all brakes came with the pad dial winder thingies that Avid mech discs have (independent ones for each side = the shït!).

punkassean · Jun 7, 2004

KleinMp99 said:
Get a set of shimano disc brakes. They are the best. I have grown to hate hayes over the past few years.....mainly because they dont really ever work.

no way dood, Hayes ALWAYS work... but they NEVER work great! Shimano brakes do have a better feel though...

thaflyinfatman · Jun 7, 2004

punkassean said:
no way dood, Hayes ALWAYS work... but they NEVER work great! Shimano brakes do have a better feel though...

Never? Funny, I rarely have problems with mine... I'm as happy with them as I would be with anything else. XTs or Avids have a better lever feel, but meh.

punkassean · Jun 7, 2004

thaflyinfatman said:
Never? Funny, I rarely have problems with mine... I'm as happy with them as I would be with anything else. XTs or Avids have a better lever feel, but meh.

I only run hayes (for the time being and for the past 4+ years) and they usually work pretty good, but if you have felt Shimanos or Hopes then you know what GREAT feels like. I choose hayes for the ease of accessibility to spare parts but I may change to Shimano or Hope soon.

kidwoo · Jun 7, 2004

thaflyinfatman said:
Never? Funny,

True. Never.

I'm still on the same bike ride I started 8 years ago with hayes brakes............can't stop..................help.

1000-Oaks · Jun 7, 2004

Bulldog said:
Actually several Hayes techs snickered at me when I asked about that screw and engagement. According to them you are wrong and it does nothing for engagement point.

Sort-of. The engagment point in the master cylinder will always be the same, but the lever will be in a different place when you hit that "point" if you adjust the lever screw.

Don't always trust snobby "techs", just 'cuz they work there doesn't mean they're any smarter than you are (they just think they are).

Annoying Hayes mystery problem

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