[sanjuro]

There was a lot made about Landis' tt position, hands high:

A customer last week wanted a 115 degree stem, which he was going to reverse for aero position. I told him that good breathing position is just as important. Maybe I should have shown him this picture...

 

[Silver]

Isn't Floyd coming right up against the edge of the rules? Look at the way he sits on his seat during a TT. He's trying to get as close to the egg position as possible while still having a legal bike, I think.

 

[LordOpie]

A customer last week wanted a 115 degree stem, which he was going to reverse for aero position. I told him that good breathing position is just as important. Maybe I should have shown him this picture...

good for you for pointing out breathing. People are stupid and think they have to do what the pros do.

For example, breathing position is a billion times more important on steep climbs -- however you define steep. When I'm climbing something steep and only doing 5-6mph, areo just isn't a factor.

 

[Silver]

When I'm climbing something steep and only doing 5-6mph, areo just isn't a factor.

But how often do you get onto a 3% grade, really?

 

[ito]

Looking at that, he appears to be in a fairly aero position, it is just that his hands are higher. I'm guessing he finds it easier to support his weight like that than to have the hands dropped down with his elbows. The rest of his body is still pretty compact, it is just his hands that are in a different position.

Probably more stable as well.

How many customers do you sell aero bars to for performance reasons? Most of the people in our shop want them for comfort and a higher position, not super tucked.

The Ito

 

[JRB]

<snip>

How many customers do you sell aero bars to for performance reasons? Most of the people in our shop want them for comfort and a higher position, not super tucked.

The Ito

How much are aero bars there???

I think he looks weird, but I'm here to tell you that there's nothing I can teach Floyd Landis about a time trial. Fashion, maybe. Time trials, no.

 

[LordOpie]

But how often do you get onto a 3% grade, really?

A lot!

Sometimes, I hit painful 4% too!

Most of the people in our shop want them for comfort and a higher position, not super tucked.

I've thought about getting them for comfort, but it's way too rolling/climbing/twisty here to be on the often enough to make it worthwhile

 

[Heidi]

I was more baffled by his granny glasses.

 

[ito]

How much are aero bars there???

Not enough, people keep asking for them. :mumble:

I HATE installing aero bars on bikes. Unless they are racing the aero bars just suck on the road. Especially around here with all the climbing and twisty roads (like Opie said).

The Ito

 

[Heath Sherratt]

Seemed to work for him...35 second gap on Zabriskie!!! That's insane considering who Zabriskie is and what he did in the Tour prologue last year.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Floyd's position is far more aerodynamic than Ulrich's. All those crusty euro dogs who have their wrists pointing down are increasing their frontal area. Frontal area is what's important, and there is really not much of a difference between a 35degree angle and a 12 angle when it comes to FA. Really extreme low positions usually result in a sever reduction in power output as well. Thorough testing allows optimization of the frontal area-power output balance. Floyd works with Allen Lim, who is one of the best when it comes to such analyisis.

 

[Internal14]

Floyd's position is far more aerodynamic than Ulrich's. All those crusty euro dogs who have their wrists pointing down are increasing their frontal area. Frontal area is what's important, and there is really not much of a difference between a 35degree angle and a 12 angle when it comes to FA. Really extreme low positions usually result in a sever reduction in power output as well. Thorough testing allows optimization of the frontal area-power output balance. Floyd works with Allen Lim, who is one of the best when it comes to such analyisis.

Al and I had a chance to catch up a bit during the tour and he had soem veeerrryy interesting things to say about power vs. aerodynamics... and I was a bit suprised at his/thier findings while in the wind tunnel the week before the tour started.
It'll be very interesting to see what the ProTour teams come up with for the TourdFrance. I know Saunier Duval-Prodir was heading to the S.D. windtunnel with Millar and Simoni and the mechanic was talking alot about Floyds newfound position.

 

[Zutroy]

Floyd's position is far more aerodynamic than Ulrich's. All those crusty euro dogs who have their wrists pointing down are increasing their frontal area. Frontal area is what's important, and there is really not much of a difference between a 35degree angle and a 12 angle when it comes to FA. Really extreme low positions usually result in a sever reduction in power output as well. Thorough testing allows optimization of the frontal area-power output balance. Floyd works with Allen Lim, who is one of the best when it comes to such analyisis.

Floyd is probably more aerodynamic period....he's a much smaller guy. Jans position was actually a good idea, he added some drag for pure power, something a guy his size can afford to do.

 

[Internal14]

FLandis: 5' 10" and 150lbs.

JUllrich: 6' and 159lbs.

Two inches and nine pounds worth of difference.
But Floyd has some really broad shoulders. When you look at Jan you can tell he doesn't have the very broad of shoulders. Floyd on the other hand, yes.
It would be interesting to see what their drag numbers are in a tunnel..oh to be a fly on the wall. ;-)

 

[CouchingTiger]

One thing to remember is that where his hands are isn't as important as where his elbows are. The lower the elbows, the lower the shoulders and the flatter the back. The head and upperbody are already hanging out in the wind and define the high part of the profile. As long as his hands aren't above/outside that profile, the impact should be minimal.

Anyhow, these guys know exactly what position/component setup allows them to put out the most wattage. They obsess over it. If only I had the time or the resources I too could ... er, nevermind, pass me another beer and sausage

-Couch

 

[Internal14]

wattage smattage....
Yes, if aerodynamics don't play a roll it's all about power. But someone real msart has been putting a bunch of brain power into the rethinking of a simple equation.
Takes X amount of wattage to go Y mph with A amount of drag.
So think about changing position and decreasing drag...how much less wattage do you have to produce to go just as fast?
Something to think about. I tell you it's counterintuitive from how the current crop of eggheads are thinking....but it seems to be working.

If it sounds like I'm being a little cagey with all the details, it's cause I am. Not sure how 'public' this knowledge is. I figure RM is a pretty small community, and the roadie side of it is super small, so this shouldn't affect too much in the ProTour world.

 

[LordOpie]

wow45

 

[surfinguru]

I don't know...I don't find it all that bizarre for some reason. Looks alot like a DH skier in the tuck position, elbows in tight w/hands up high.

 

[indieboy]

wattage smattage....
Yes, if aerodynamics don't play a roll it's all about power. But someone real msart has been putting a bunch of brain power into the rethinking of a simple equation.
Takes X amount of wattage to go Y mph with A amount of drag.
So think about changing position and decreasing drag...how much less wattage do you have to produce to go just as fast?
Something to think about. I tell you it's counterintuitive from how the current crop of eggheads are thinking....but it seems to be working.

If it sounds like I'm being a little cagey with all the details, it's cause I am. Not sure how 'public' this knowledge is. I figure RM is a pretty small community, and the roadie side of it is super small, so this shouldn't affect too much in the ProTour world.

you'd hope anyone with half a brain would be able to figure that equation out.

 

[speedbump]

I think the most interesting thing about Floyd's new "aero package" is that he has ditched his sponsor's (Catlike) aero helmet for an unmarked Giro.

I also wouldn't read too much into results this time of year as everyone is on different programs and paths until the Tour.

 

[mattv2099]

I don't know...I don't find it all that bizarre for some reason. Looks alot like a DH skier in the tuck position, elbows in tight w/hands up high.

I read somewhere the Floyd's position is very much like the CH skier's position. He's using his arms to shield his chest.

 

[mattv2099]

I think the most interesting thing about Floyd's new "aero package" is that he has ditched his sponsor's (Catlike) aero helmet for an unmarked Giro.

I also wouldn't read too much into results this time of year as everyone is on different programs and paths until the Tour.

Early reports were that Zabriskie went to the ToC with great form shooting for the top spot on the podium...

 

[The Toninator]

Not enough, people keep asking for them. :mumble:

I HATE installing aero bars on bikes. Unless they are racing the aero bars just suck on the road. Especially around here with all the climbing and twisty roads (like Opie said).

The Ito

for some reason the MS150ers think they are for comfort not performance.

 

[Pau11y]

That position isn't that un-aero. If you look at the DH skier's tuck, the hands are pretty high up and close to the face.

Edit: oops, missed sufinguru's post... what he said! The only other position that might be more aero is hands/arms down the side and behind the back, like nordic jumpers and speed skaters. Bike control will be somewhat problematic methinks...

 

[Internal14]

naaaaw...just steer with your chin! Brake lever in your mouth! Now you don't need those pesky appendages out in front of you.