[pnj]

I know a number of people ride DH on hardtails with platform/flat pedals.

this is my current set up as well. I have a four inch DJ II on the front.


I'm really more into XC riding but around here there are plenty of hills so at some point, you have to go down them. one place I've been riding lately is a 3 mile gravel road up and a couple mile single track down. it's bumpy, insanely rooty, rutted and filled with rocks in areas. I can go pretty fast (for me) down it by just pointing the bike in the direction I want to go but it seems like I could go faster.

I have a about 50 PSI in my rear tire so I don't pinch flat and this of course makes the ride rougher.

what do the super pros do on this type of trail to go faster? (obviously, knowing the trail better so I can find the perfect line would help and not being a giant pvssy would help) but are there some things the hardtailers do that the squishy guys don't have to worry about?

I know, kind of a dumb question....

any and all suggestions welcome. (except for "get a squishy bike" )

 

[MikeD]

Hop over stuff rather than plowing through it.

Practice riding down stuff without pedalling...you'll learn to conserve momentum and pick faster lines that way.

 

[blong]

for me, clips make a huge difference. it's just hard to keep your feet from being bounced off on a hardtail.

but just know how to take advantage of riding a hardtail. you have the ability to bunny hop stuff a dh bike would be too difficult to pull up for. don't be afraid to jump around all over the trail to find the smoothest line.

 

[binary visions]

Go tubeless and run a little less pressure. Sticky compounds help (you didn't mention what kind of tire you have). It sucks when you can't rely on your tires to provide appropriate grip for whatever stupidity you're getting yourself into.

The only thing I find makes me significantly faster is to just.. go faster. Pedal harder and really loosen your body up, especially your legs. Trust in momentum - it is your friend. I don't ride nearly often enough, so the first few runs on a trail I'm usually pretty stiff and that makes me slow. After a few runs, my arms start to get tired, so I'm forced to loosen up a bit and I always get much faster.

As far as what super pros do, who knows. I'm pretty slow myself - all I know is what makes me a little faster...

 

[llkoolkeg]

With a lighter-weight hardtail, smaller and harder tires and a fairly small fork, you have a very efficient and fast set-up. Most likely you are able to go too fast and that is the problem. On the same stretch of terrain, my smaller bike is always faster than my big bike...it's just that it feels too rough and out of control for me to stay on top of the bike and I find myself grabbing brake all the way down. Bigger bikes are smoother more than they are faster, and by that I mean that they make the rider feel more comfortable at higher speeds. When you don't feel like a bullrider barely clinging to the rope, you don't brake so often and maintain your speed through rough sections.

My suggestion is this-
If you don't have good disc brakes, get 'em. You'll be able to brake later and harder before turns or sketchy sections and better maintain your speed. In order to actually go faster through the rough stuff, the cheapest fix would be to get the widest, softest and stickiest tires that you can reasonably be expected to pedal on the ups.

 

[Kornphlake]

I don't want to insult your intelligence as a rider but have you lowered the seat? That's the #1 thing I can think of to go faster down hill, you've been riding a long time so I'm sure you already knew that but really there's no secret that will give you as much control as lowering the seat. Maybe you could try adjusting the compression damping on your fork???

 

[SuspectDevice]

Just ride your bike, keep your head up, and stay off the brakes. You can either have braking traction, or cornering traction, choose one.

 

[Greyhound]

With a lighter-weight hardtail, smaller and harder tires and a fairly small fork, you have a very efficient and fast set-up. Most likely you are able to go too fast and that is the problem.

Amen to that!! My first hardtail DH run, I found myself getting into that exact same scenario time and time again. Riding with my buddies down the hill, I quickly noticed that even though I would not be as fast as them through a rooty turn or such, I could catch them instantly with a snap of the crank as soon as I exited the turn......and damn the torpedoes if the turn went into a straight, it was like riding a jet. But, that's where my problems came everytime. I would blow through turns a lot because of that very advantage. Couldn't get enough brake to haul it down from mach8 like that. You gotta end up in the bushes a few times to get that drilled into your melon sometimes, but that's racing for ya.

 

[pnj]

seat is low, I can't run disks on this frame but do have them on the front, my tires are Tioga DH pretty wide. I don't think I could get a wider tire in my frame nor do I think I would want a wider tire.

some of the sections of roots are not bunnyhopable. at least by me, at those speeds. they are like Looooooong sections. I guess one just suffers through those sections..

I thought my fork was doing a good job, but it sounds like it gets stiffer under stress? I can't really tell, I'm just trying to hold on.

 

[binary visions]

seat is low, I can't run disks on this frame but do have them on the front, my tires are Tioga DH pretty wide. I don't think I could get a wider tire in my frame nor do I think I would want a wider tire.

some of the sections of roots are not bunnyhopable. at least by me, at those speeds. they are like Looooooong sections. I guess one just suffers through those sections..

I thought my fork was doing a good job, but it sounds like it gets stiffer under stress? I can't really tell, I'm just trying to hold on.

Well, your fork is SSV so it will suffer from hydraulic lockout under high speed impacts (nailing a root at 25mph is definitly a high speed impact ).

Two suggestions.

A) try some sticky rubber tires if those are the Factory DH model. Some Michelins perhaps? Tioga also makes the White Tiger which are sticky rubber.

B) If you ever have some money in your pocket, consider picking up a cartridge damper fork. Yes, you can overcome the deficiencies in the damper blah blah blah ride what you have blah blah... But the fact is, a cartridge damper fork (Z.1 FR, Manitou Sherman) is worlds better than a simple ported damper like your DJ is.

 

[pnj]

I don't think I'm doing 25mph on this trail.... holy crap that would be fast.

why would sticky tires help? I guess they would keep the bike from sliding from side to side? I like these tires (tioga DH, yea I think they are the Factory ones.) they seem pretty good elsewhere. well, I guess I'm comparing them to my last tires which were stock crappers that had a smooth center bead for cement.

 

[xy9ine]

riding clipless really helped me for the knarley fast stuff; the rear gets bucked all over the place & its hard to keep the feet on the pedals. i used higher-volume tires (2.6 or 2.7's) with durable sidewalls, so you can run a bit softer without flatting. bigger forks work well on *some* frames; i've run 6 & 7" forks on my letoy & its surprisingly balanced. pick smooth lines & take advantage of the superior accelleration - sprint out of corners, up rises, etc; where the sleds are struggling, you're making up time.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

You know, its funny you posted this. I was out this weekend at a local spot with some wicked downhills on my chameleon, I used to ride a DH bike with monsters and all that crap. Anyway i was coming down hills thinking to myself holy fvck am i flying. I was going so effing fast i couldnt believe myself, i am getting so comfortable with the hardtail now that i find it to be fast than the DH, unless it is really rocky like snowshoe . I think the major key to riding a hardtail is keeping loose and letting the bike move around. As said above your bike is way more flickable than a full squish and you can use that to your advantage. Another thing is get that 50 psi out and go to something near 35 i am 170 and ride Tioga Yellow kirin 2.3 at 35 and never have flats ever! (knock on wood). Also trust your fork, if it is good, i have a fox vanilla RLC and i trust that thing with my life, it seems to get me out of any situation i find myself in. So i guess keep it loose and stay off of those brakes! Ride on hardtail bro... :evil:

 

[binary visions]

I don't think I'm doing 25mph on this trail.... holy crap that would be fast.

why would sticky tires help? I guess they would keep the bike from sliding from side to side? I like these tires (tioga DH, yea I think they are the Factory ones.) they seem pretty good elsewhere. well, I guess I'm comparing them to my last tires which were stock crappers that had a smooth center bead for cement.

I was exaggerating on the speed but nonetheless you're definitly getting some hydraulic spiking... whether you notice it or not is another matter.

The Tiogas are good tires, I've ridden 'em, but the difference between sticky rubber and harder rubber is absolutely night and day. You won't ever want to go back.

 

[pnj]

platforms for life! haha.

don't you mess your rims up if you run lower pressure?

 

[Kornphlake]

Tiogas have paper thin sidewalls, if you can pick up a maxxis dual ply tire in a 2.35 width and still manage to pedal you'll be able to let plenty of air out of your tires for the downhill sections, I used to ride my chameleon with 30-35psi and I only remember pinch flatting once, the stiffer sidewall helps the tire inflate itself so the tube doesn't have to hold as much pressure, have you ever watched a trials rider bounce on a handrail? They don't pinch flat or bend rims for some reason, I can't explain why but the fact is that you don't have to have 50 psi to not flat or ding rims, especially with a wider tire there's no reason to run more than 40 psi. unless you have really wimpy sidewalls, if that's the case you really aren't getting the full benefit of wider tires.

 

[pnj]

I'll have to look into better tires then. the rims I'm running are Sun BFR things. they seem pretty good. but I'm using rim brakes in the back so the less I can smack the rims into rocks and such, the better my brakes will work.

next frame will have mounts for disks but this frame is a Diamond Back Sorrento POS. the complete bike was under $300.00 (the only thing left is the tires, seat/post/clamp and bars)

but the rim brakes on the rear with disks in front work pretty well, if it's not wet out....

 

[CowboyLeo]

One of the many advantages of a hardtail is it handles well on the rear wheel. You can manual or wheelie through the really rough stuff or just keep your weight off the front. You should be fine with lower pressure as long as your not dinging the rims, some nice tires with stiff sidewalls will help. Just keep lowering the pressure until it seems like your rims are too close to hitting roots or rocks in the roughest conditions and then bring the pressure back up a little. As someone else already said a hardtail is much better at hopping, in addition it is much more manuverable. So you hop over stuff that a fully would normally do an ugly job of plowing through. More travel won't really help, most people are obsessed with travel when what is most important is the bikes geometry. A longer fork will only ruin your bikes handling. And you can do just fine without the fancy damping. Another thing you just have to get used to through practice is keeping your body loose. Your arms and legs should be flexing and your body should me moving up and down whenever you hit a rough section or a drop. The best suspension in the world is YOUR BODY, so use it.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

Tiogas have paper thin sidewalls, if you can pick up a maxxis dual ply tire in a 2.35 width and still manage to pedal you'll be able to let plenty of air out of your tires for the downhill sections, I used to ride my chameleon with 30-35psi and I only remember pinch flatting once, the stiffer sidewall helps the tire inflate itself so the tube doesn't have to hold as much pressure, have you ever watched a trials rider bounce on a handrail? They don't pinch flat or bend rims for some reason, I can't explain why but the fact is that you don't have to have 50 psi to not flat or ding rims, especially with a wider tire there's no reason to run more than 40 psi. unless you have really wimpy sidewalls, if that's the case you really aren't getting the full benefit of wider tires.

You havent ridden the new ones, i have riddin tons of tires the new Yellow Kirin are beefy!

 

[offdawalley]

those suspension seatposts are awesome!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BMXman]

The main thing to me is to stay lose and relax....Ht can really put the smack down if you're sloppy..I ride flats on my Ht but I've been on flats for years...I think clipless will herp but I think it's whatever you prefer. I would really look into upgrading the frame/fork combo if you really want to see a noticable improvement.....D

 

[Kornphlake]

You havent ridden the new ones, i have riddin tons of tires the new Yellow Kirin are beefy!

He said he's got factory DH's, unless they've changed they're more like fat XC tires.

 

[BMXman]

well if he was on the factory dh Pro's the sidewalls are extra thick..the tires weigh over 1300 grams...D

 

[The Kadvang]

With what BMX man said above, I think the frame/fork will make alot of difference. Back when I rode DH on my old EXR comps, I would get knocked around and generally get the **** kicked out of me. When I got my z150, it was a world of difference. Smoothness is always your friend.

 

[Rip]

Pretty much what Stoney said. Plus hesitation will hurt you. Also upgrade to atleast a Z1 Freeride if the frame can handle it.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

well if he was on the factory dh Pro's the sidewalls are extra thick..the tires weigh over 1300 grams...D

Exactly, no reason to put some 1500 gram dh tires on there. All I am saying is that I run low psi and beat the living shat out of my tires and they never pinch flat. Dont weight the hardtail down with some 3.9 nokian gabalodozagraminia tire :eyesroll:. Just stick to the huge crop of 2.3-2.5 trail lighter casing tires, the higher air volume protects against the flats well. I recomend the new WTB timberwolf as well. It rips in the wet and ugly stuff, and i believe it is in the 6-700 gram range.

 

[bigkonarider]

well, the hardtail is going to have a LOWER center of gravity...
That makes a big difference i think !..
Stay low l.
Also i hate getting that pintch flat--so that's why i went 50# Bullet/Monster-T now..
Tried everything..& went to FS ...
LeToy3--Kona --Azonic DS-1,etc..
Hardtails rip it up -but you just can only be so smooth on it, until it's just frigging crazy & semi-outa control...
Just have fun & don't impale yourself dude !

 

[Kornphlake]

well if he was on the factory dh Pro's the sidewalls are extra thick..the tires weigh over 1300 grams...D

If he's in fact got the pro's then there's no reason to run more than 35psi, I would in this case retract my criticism of tioga tires but maintain my stance that if you need 60psi to not pinch flat you need thicker sidewalls.

 

[pnj]

I don't think they are the Pro's. they don't say 'Pro' on them. there is no way I could run 35psi without destroying my rim with these things.

 

[SprungShoulders]

Hardtails rip it up -but you just can only be so smooth on it, until it's just frigging crazy & semi-outa control...

Hey, that's when it just starts to get fun!!

I recently abandoned my FS trail bike in favor of a "do-it-all" hardtail: a Planet-X Compo with an old '99 Boxxer on the front (6" mode, with new non-leaky Enduro dust and oil seals). The Compo was designed around a 5-6" travel fork, so the geometry is spot-on for trail use. With the seat slammed all the way down, it's a decent jumper; very flick-able in the air. The short chainstays are a maneuvering godsend, and make the bike a manual machine. I can do stuff on the HT that is impossible on my big bike. I think that's what makes it such fun to ride. I still ride a big FS bike to race DH (Mountain Cycle 9.5), but I have gobs more fun on the HT in most situations. I run 2-ply Maxxis DH rubber (2.7" Highroller SRY front and 60 duro 2.5" rear) at about 25lbs each (I weight 160) and have yet to flat, in spite of square-edging some nasty rocks at speed, and flat-landing a couple of drops onto pavement.

Like has been mentioned above, I've been learning that jumping over stuff instead of plowing through it is not only fun, but also highly efficient on a HT. Keeping loose and picking smooth lines are also important skills. I ride flats, and generally have no trouble keeping my feet on the pedals, even through the rough stuff.

I never thought I'd prefer a HT over FS ever again, but I guess I was wrong. HT's rock.

 

[Gk. Willie]

Most hills have rolling dips through-out them. pumping your forks through those dips will increase your speed. Thats how BMX'rs make through all those rythym sections without pedaling. They also ride without brakes but we wont go there

 

[pnj]

Like has been mentioned above, I've been learning that jumping over stuff instead of plowing through it is not only fun, but also highly efficient on a HT. Keeping loose and picking smooth lines are also important skills.

the parts of this one trail I'm talking about (which of course, on northwest monkeys would know..) has root sections that are un-jumpable, I think. I'll try to get a picture of some of the sections I'm talking about. maybe 12 or more feet of roots. sure, 12 feet IS jumpable but then there is another section right after that is about the same length and then another and another, etc....

the only real way I see getting through this stuff fast is just being loose and haulling ass to begin with so I keep my speed up. dunno, these are just things I think of when riding alone.(how can I go faster, etc) when riding with others I'm usually thinking "holy fawk, I better not fall because dude is on my ass.."

mabye being able to see better, looking further ahead so I CAN pick better lines and of course knowing the trail better would help as well.

 

[CreeP]

hey he's thinking

ever ridden down stairs? same thing, faster=smoother. Also think of ways to connect one root or root clump to another. Here in montreal there is this one section down mount royal that is all roots for well over 40ft, some are bigger and some are smaller. What i do is try and go straight and pump as though i was dirt jumping, taking maximum advantage of the short portions of smoothness. If i didn't i would practically come to a stop because this section is very flat and the roots just sort of stick straight up.