[davep]

Quick question. Does the 06' 888 RC2X foul its oil as bad as the earlier 888's?

There was a quick lil' article a while ago in Dirt or Decline that made mention of hard anodized internals (as well as servicable cartrages, and we all know that is b.s.)on the RC2X, just wondering if there was any truth to this, as the RC2X'S are geting cheap.

Thanks

 

[1soulrider]

The new 888 RCX2 needs oil changes as frequently as the old ones, this has to do with the low oil volume of newer forks. Less oil = less weight. That said, the 888 RCX2 is a world better fork than the first generation 888 (which was a pretty damn good fork), the new cartridges are the ****.

 

[kidwoo]

The new 888 RCX2 needs oil changes as frequently as the old ones, this has to do with the low oil volume of newer forks. Less oil = less weight. That said, the 888 RCX2 is a world better fork than the first generation 888 (which was a pretty damn good fork), the new cartridges are the ****.

Oh.....first it's all "these things are heavier, I'm not so sure I should've gotten one"

Now it's worlds better?

Now I gotta get a new one.

Thanks fag.

 

[davep]

The new 888 RCX2 needs oil changes as frequently as the old ones, this has to do with the low oil volume of newer forks. Less oil = less weight. That said, the 888 RCX2 is a world better fork than the first generation 888 (which was a pretty damn good fork), the new cartridges are the ****.

I dont care how it performs, that is not my question. Low oil volume has nothing to do with it either...so i take it as you dont know the anwer to what i am asking...??

 

[kidwoo]

I dont care how it performs, that is not my question. Low oil volume has nothing to do with it either...so i take it as you dont know the anwer to what i am asking...??

Genius......listen to what he's saying.


888s have a low oil volume so they foul quickly and require frequent changes. He answered your question stating that yes.....since the new ones are similar, they require the same maintenence as the old ones.

So yes. Low oil volume has everything to do with it because the system hasn't changed in that regard.

He does know the answer to what you're asking.......and he gave it in his first sentence.....along with some extra info that you're too stubborn to recognize for what it is. He's been riding these forks since they've existed and is a very competent mechanic who works not only on his bikes but the ones his team races.

 

[davep]

Genius......listen to what he's saying.


888s have a low oil volume so they foul quickly and require frequent changes. He answered your question stating that yes.....since the new ones are similar, they require the same maintenence as the old ones.

So yes. Low oil volume has everything to do with it because the system hasn't changed in that regard.

He does know the answer to what you're asking.......and he gave it in his first sentence.....along with some extra info that you're too stubborn to recognize for what it is. He's been riding these forks since they've existed and is a very competent mechanic who works not only on his bikes but the ones his team races.

No need to be a d!ck woo.

If the low oil volume is the cause, then why is it only the rebound side that fouls. The fouling is due to non anodized internals that oxidise and wear FYI. I specifically asked if the '06 was different than the '05 (oil levels have not changed),not if the 888 was different than other forks. That question was not answered neither was the question about the anodized internals.

Dont assume others know less that you just because they ask questions.

 

[evilbob]

If the low oil volume is the cause, then why is it only the rebound side that fouls. The fouling is due to non anodized internals that oxidise and wear FYI.

Actually the rebound side draws a higher negative pressure when extending than the compression side which coincidently can have a higher positive pressure on compression. The negative pressure tends to pull more contaminates past the seal on the rebound side. In the PNW it is very obvious during the wet months.

By the way for oxidation from non anodized internals to break down your oil enough to cause a performance problem your looking at several months of the fork just sitting there doing nothing. If your fork is in service a couple of times a week and your oil is breaking down then it is more likely stuff from the outside getting in, especially on the rebound side.

Funny thing about this whole topic is most riders don't have a clue when they have lost performance due to contaminated oil and just ride until their fork breaks or they sell it.

 

[Udi]

If the low oil volume is the cause, then why is it only the rebound side that fouls. The fouling is due to non anodized internals that oxidise and wear FYI.

I agree with you on that one.
evilbob brings up an interesting explanation but one that is not true I suspect. I have noticed that the contaminants in the rebound side are always black and silvery metallic. Says oxide and metal wear to me.

Why it happened on the rebound side and not the compression was because the compression damper did SO little compared to the rebound damper (and it will still be the same story on the RC2X - the near-useless comp cart hasn't changed). The comp side is only active in the last 2-3" and doesn't provide very heavy damping anyway - which meant while there was oil in there it wasn't getting cycled through the damper anywhere near as much as it was on the rebound side.

On the RC2X the rebound leg is used for both rebound and compression throughout the whole stroke, and marzocchi never anodizes cartridges that are non aftermarket (to my knowledge). So yes the oil will still discolour and get contaminated (with internal contaminants) just as soon, if not sooner - and I don't personally think it affects performance very noticeably. But if you are pedantic it never hurts to change it every 6-12 months.

As a side note, I have run the original 888 with both the stock rebound cartridge and an aftermarket blue anodized one for a period of time - and the oil stayed much clearer for much longer with the latter (anodized).

Furthermore, oil volume has NOTHING to do with it. Marzocchi forks run huge amounts of oil compared to its competitors, and rear shocks. Have a look at rockshox (motion control) damping oil or even rear shock damping oil, generally they will go for a LONG time without discolouring or getting contaminated. I opened a swinger 4-way that still had clean and clear oil after 1.5 years of hard use. So the metallic/black discolouration of the marzocchi oil is not volume related - it could be bushing related as the bushings are lubed by the same oil in open bath, but definitely not a volume issue.

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

Funny thing about this whole topic is most riders don't have a clue when they have lost performance due to contaminated oil and just ride until their fork breaks or they sell it.

Um ... that would be me. Hence, I don't post much.

 

[vitox]

i havent seen any difference in how quickly the oil needs to be changed between the 1st gen fork and the current one, but i actually figure it to be quite good. granted you have to change the oil more often (and theres more of it) than in a cartridge fork, but thats comparing against the damper oil in the cartridge fork, if you compare against the bushing lube interval of a cartridge fork like a travis, mc-boxxer or 40, the result is way different.

 

[davep]

I agree with you on that one.
evilbob brings up an interesting explanation but one that is not true I suspect. I have noticed that the contaminants in the rebound side are always black and silvery metallic. Says oxide and metal wear to me.

Why it happened on the rebound side and not the compression was because the compression damper did SO little compared to the rebound damper (and it will still be the same story on the RC2X - the near-useless comp cart hasn't changed). The comp side is only active in the last 2-3" and doesn't provide very heavy damping anyway - which meant while there was oil in there it wasn't getting cycled through the damper anywhere near as much as it was on the rebound side.

On the RC2X the rebound leg is used for both rebound and compression throughout the whole stroke, and marzocchi never anodizes cartridges that are non aftermarket (to my knowledge). So yes the oil will still discolour and get contaminated (with internal contaminants) just as soon, if not sooner - and I don't personally think it affects performance very noticeably. But if you are pedantic it never hurts to change it every 6-12 months.

As a side note, I have run the original 888 with both the stock rebound cartridge and an aftermarket blue anodized one for a period of time - and the oil stayed much clearer for much longer with the latter (anodized).

Furthermore, oil volume has NOTHING to do with it. Marzocchi forks run huge amounts of oil compared to its competitors, and rear shocks. Have a look at rockshox (motion control) damping oil or even rear shock damping oil, generally they will go for a LONG time without discolouring or getting contaminated. I opened a swinger 4-way that still had clean and clear oil after 1.5 years of hard use. So the metallic/black discolouration of the marzocchi oil is not volume related - it could be bushing related as the bushings are lubed by the same oil in open bath, but definitely not a volume issue.

YES!!

 

[davep]

i havent seen any difference in how quickly the oil needs to be changed between the 1st gen fork and the current one, but i actually figure it to be quite good. granted you have to change the oil more often (and theres more of it) than in a cartridge fork, but thats comparing against the damper oil in the cartridge fork, if you compare against the bushing lube interval of a cartridge fork like a travis, mc-boxxer or 40, the result is way different.

I do agree as far as performance is concerned. The oil discoloration/contamination does not seem to corelate to performance drop at all. I change the oil in my 888 about every month durring riding season, and using a synthetic oil, i have never felt a change in performance. However, I have opened my fork to re-check oil levels and the oil can turn black-metalflake within a day or so. Although they do their job, it is dissapointing to see how rudimentary the 888 internals are.

It still seems odd that 'Dirt' would claim that the RC2X has these features (anno and openable carts) when it dissapointingly does not.

 

[davep]

Actually the rebound side draws a higher negative pressure when extending than the compression side which coincidently can have a higher positive pressure on compression. The negative pressure tends to pull more contaminates past the seal on the rebound side. In the PNW it is very obvious during the wet months.

By the way for oxidation from non anodized internals to break down your oil enough to cause a performance problem your looking at several months of the fork just sitting there doing nothing. If your fork is in service a couple of times a week and your oil is breaking down then it is more likely stuff from the outside getting in, especially on the rebound side.



Funny thing about this whole topic is most riders don't have a clue when they have lost performance due to contaminated oil and just ride until their fork breaks or they sell it.

For either side to create a negative pressure when compared to the atmosphere, it must bleed or burp the air durring compression. This does not happen. Infact the possitive air pressure is how Marz prevents bottom out. The seals never see a lower pressure on the inside of the fork.

I agree 100% with your last paragraph!!


Thanks everyone for the straight foreward answers!

 

[vitox]

I do agree as far as performance is concerned. The oil discoloration/contamination does not seem to corelate to performance drop at all. I change the oil in my 888 about every month durring riding season, and using a synthetic oil, i have never felt a change in performance. However, I have opened my fork to re-check oil levels and the oil can turn black-metalflake within a day or so. Although they do their job, it is dissapointing to see how rudimentary the 888 internals are.

It still seems odd that 'Dirt' would claim that the RC2X has these features (anno and openable carts) when it dissapointingly does not.

yes well dirt is -to me at least- absolutely worthless when it comes to anything technical, but that doesnt take away from its great looks and stories.
anyway, i think i know why dirt would suppose the carts can be disassembled, you see, at one end of it theres a clip, which probably is there for assembly, later on the cart gets sealed but the clip is still there so maybe they saw that and figured if they undid the clip, the cart would open.

 

[davep]

yes well dirt is -to me at least- absolutely worthless when it comes to anything technical, but that doesnt take away from its great looks and stories.
anyway, i think i know why dirt would suppose the carts can be disassembled, you see, at one end of it theres a clip, which probably is there for assembly, later on the cart gets sealed but the clip is still there so maybe they saw that and figured if they undid the clip, the cart would open.

Yea I have though a few times about removing the peening/crimp on the end of the cart just to see what is truely going on within.

 

[Kntr]

Yea I have though a few times about removing the peening/crimp on the end of the cart just to see what is truely going on within.

Ive been real curious too but I would probably not like what I see. ..... empty. all placebo.

From what I can tell (and think) UDI is 100% correct.

 

[Udi]

Yea I have though a few times about removing the peening/crimp on the end of the cart just to see what is truely going on within.

Done it already (reb side), will post up some pics sometime if there is interest. It's pretty simple and I see no reason why they couldn't make the carts user serviceable to replace piston glide rings and cartridge seals/bushings. Oh except that marzocchi are arseholes and/or too lazy to make useful changes like that. Changing shims would be harder though, simply due to the position of the stack.

The shimstack is tiny, and right at the bottom of the cart behind the external oil ports. The piston draws the oil through the stack (on rebound) and the needle valve just adjusts bypass in the piston, ie how much negative pressure (suction) the piston puts on the oil coming through the stack. The RC2X would just a needle valve to control return flow out of the cartridge on compression (just guessing).

 

[davep]

Done it already (reb side), will post up some pics sometime if there is interest. It's pretty simple and I see no reason why they couldn't make the carts user serviceable to replace piston glide rings and cartridge seals/bushings. Oh except that marzocchi are arseholes and/or too lazy to make useful changes like that. Changing shims would be harder though, simply due to the position of the stack.

The shimstack is tiny, and right at the bottom of the cart behind the external oil ports. The piston draws the oil through the stack (on rebound) and the needle valve just adjusts bypass in the piston, ie how much negative pressure (suction) the piston puts on the oil coming through the stack. The RC2X would just a needle valve to control return flow out of the cartridge on compression (just guessing).

I find it very frustrating that ALL of the major DH forks are about 90% correct. They all have some sort of flaw. They seem to work well for the most part but....What i would be super stoked on is something like avalanche internals build into a mass production chasis like the 888. There are a million moto forks to look at and adapt to the size and strength needed for DH, it just doesn't seem that hard.

I think that manitou was the closest for a while with the TPC+ but too much plastic and lack of true seals, and now..pffffttt.

Marz holds up and seems to work, but no user mods allowed and it is just really basic in execution and seem unfinished inside. More time needs to be spent on the inners ans less on designing new 'M' arches.

Some of the current R.S stuff looks O.K., but they are getting pretty gimmicky with all of the names and acronyms for un-needed and overcomlicating features, and seem to still be having a bit of the old issues with seals and general build quality that they always have

Fox is close in theory and outside perception, but seem to need freequent rebuilds including seals (lots of maintainance tht you have to pay fox for) Plus ALL of the damping works are sealed and off limits to the end user. WTF?

Too many gimmics when all we need is a small moto fork! the R & D has all been done and proven twenty years ago. So close but yet so far.