[rideit]

So, I ordered a new 180mm airshaft (2022 Zeb with Buttercups), and the site I bought from suggested a new seal head kit, is this a performance thing, or what?
Baubles and trinkets?
I mean…it’s RED.

 

[SkaredShtles]

$8 says it's useless nonsense.

 

[canadmos]

Don't the airshafts come with this same seal head?

 

[Westy]

Don't the airshafts come with this same seal head?

Two seal heads would be twice gooder

 

[rideit]

So, I guess now they have a new sku/product that is the airshaft WITHOUT the seal head, (you use a shaft clamp to remove the existing head and replace it). Actually a good idea.

 

[kidwoo]

Actually a good idea.

I know of a better one.

 

[rideit]

I know of a better one.

Quit riding, and piss all over anyone who does?

 

[kidwoo]

Quit riding, and piss all over anyone who does?


View attachment 204265

my goal is population reduction in the name of sustainability

You're buying a product with 'buttercup' as a feature. Pretty much ochain for suspension because they don't want to bother building a better suspension component. Or more to the point just stick a fucking coil and some decent damping in it.

They're just making fun of you at this point. It's like rush limbaugh and the disdain for his own listeners. They're even calling you names and charging more for it.

You know what this fancy airfork needs in 2023..........elastomers baby

 

[kidwoo]

Woo industries introduces jiggywittit saddle technology. It's a seat clamp but with elastomers

hot on the heels is our crankinit technology, which is a pedal spindle......but with elastomers

All of this of course immediately following our introduction to the bike industry of our Icanseeshitdawg™ technology, our signature eye contact line.....made of elastomers. Guaranteeing you can probably totally see straight because mountainbiking is rough. But we're doing everything we can to make you think we can turn a vehicle 1/5 your weight into a smooth operator.

 

[Westy]

You know what this fancy airfork needs in 2023..........elastomers baby

It isn't a terrible idea. Not that they contribute to any real travel but they will absorb high frequency vibrations, shit that a system with friction would transfer. The velocity based dyno charts used in suspension tuning is an overly simplistic means of measuring performance, frequency response is also extremely important. I once talked to a guy who tuned shocks for race cars and he explained he could make a straight shim stack perform the same way as a tapered one on the dyno but on a racetrack the tapered stack had a lot more traction. He didn't realize it but I am rather sure the additional mass of the straight stack prevented the shock from properly responding to high frequency chatter.

What can make a smaller square edge bump feel harsher than a larger rounder one is the higher frequency content. This is also not a new idea. If you have ever been in a car where someone has replaced the elastomer (gasp) based shock bushings with nylon ones you can feel how much harsher the ride is. Ultimately the question is whether there is any high frequency content to filter out that the big balloony tires haven't already taken care of.

When I was designing vibration test equipment it was always surprising how much a difference that a specialized 1/4" rubber mat would make.

 

[canadmos]

Gold > silver > red

 

[kidwoo]

It isn't a terrible idea. Not that they contribute to any real travel but they will absorb high frequency vibrations, shit that a system with friction would transfer. The velocity based dyno charts used in suspension tuning is an overly simplistic means of measuring performance, frequency response is also extremely important. I once talked to a guy who tuned shocks for race cars and he explained he could make a straight shim stack perform the same way as a tapered one on the dyno but on a racetrack the tapered stack had a lot more traction. He didn't realize it but I am rather sure the additional mass of the straight stack prevented the shock from properly responding to high frequency chatter.

What can make a smaller square edge bump feel harsher than a larger rounder one is the higher frequency content. This is also not a new idea. If you have ever been in a car where someone has replaced the elastomer (gasp) based shock bushings with nylon ones you can feel how much harsher the ride is. Ultimately the question is whether there is any high frequency content to filter out that the big balloony tires haven't already taken care of.

When I was designing vibration test equipment it was always surprising how much a difference that a specialized 1/4" rubber mat would make.

if only there were some sort of existing elastomer-like component between your hands and the ground.....

maybe even a tuneable one via.....I don't know, air pressure or something. Or one that isolated a resonating handlebar from your hands

the answer to your question is 'no'

there's little to nothing that a soft compound tire isn't already taking care of. It has astronomically more give and inherent damping than a few mm of whatever trying to overcome fork friction which is by design worse because air spring

obviously there's a reason motor mounts have this shit. But there's a whole universe between ground and hands in this scenario. Unfortunately 'shitty suspension' is the given

You really want to damp that stuff? Make a tertiary tube on the lowers that's completely lined with a damping rubber.....not something inline with the suspension motion that only works in one degree.

 

[Westy]

if only there were some sort of existing elastomer-like component between your hands and the ground.....

maybe even a tuneable one via.....I don't know, air pressure or something. Or one that isolated a resonating handlebar from your hands

the answer to your question is 'no'

there's little to nothing that a soft compound tire isn't already taking care of. It has astronomically more give and inherent damping than a few mm of whatever trying to overcome fork friction which is by design worse because air spring

obviously there's a reason motor mounts have this shit. But there's a whole universe between ground and hands in this scenario. Unfortunately 'shitty suspension' is the given

Replace the cab mount bushings on your Tacoma with a stack of washers and get back to us. Ther is plenty of tire and suspension before that so you shouldn't feel the difference.

I wouldn't be convinced that Zeb bushings make much of a difference without actually testing, but it is a technically sound concept. I'd be more concerned that the volume they consume in the lowers adding unnecessary progression.

 

[kidwoo]

Replace the cab mount bushings on your Tacoma with a stack of washers and get back to us.

travel 70mph with a V6 on a mountainbike and get back to us.

You're making the case that rubber compounds damp vibrations, I already know that. I have sheets of the stuff here I used to buy for camera mounts. But that's for 360 degree in any axis impacts. This isn't that.

vibration damping in literally the exact same axis as the suspension takes care of vibrations in only that axis. Not only is that not solely where it's coming from, the same friction resistance applies.

read my edit on what you just quoted

Yeah it's a good idea.....if you don't think it through

Doing it in the fork seals would be more productive

 

[Jm_]

There's so much stuff these suspension companies will do...except make a goddamn good damper.

 

[kidwoo]

There's so much stuff these suspension companies will do...except make a goddamn good damper.

I think you're being a little harsh (suckit rideit)


They won't utilize a superior spring mechanism either.










Shit, now I'm thinking about rubber backed shim stacks.........

 

[rideit]

I’m flattered, but I’m taken.

 

[kidwoo]

I’m flattered, but I’m taken.

Still though....one solid highly appropriate pun beats six lame daily ones.

I'm pretty proud of that.


That shiny red thing is 43 bucks. You've bought meals that cost more than that and are arguably less durable (in all fairness, I'm not familiar with your digestive system so take with a grain of imodium)

With what you spend on literally everything else, just try it. If it works it's good. If not, throw it in the blade of that electric snowblower and put it out of its misery. It would free you from the pressure to constantly justify it's existence.

 

[rideit]

As far as puns, “I lose money on every pun, but I make it up in volume!!!”

I only bought the 180 shaft (heh) to increase my travel, not for some imaginary benefit. That said, I like the Zeb better than the 38 Factory, it really does seem a little ‘quieter’ in chunder and high frequency situations, like stutter bumps. I did just bore out the bushings on the 38, but I won’t be able to ride it until May, so who the fuck knows.

 

[kidwoo]

As far as puns, “I lose money on every pun, but I make it up in volume!!!”

I only bought the 180 shaft (heh) to increase my travel, not for some imaginary benefit. That said, I like the Zeb better than the 38 Factory, it really does seem a little ‘quieter’ in chunder and high frequency situations, like stutter bumps. I did just bore out the bushings on the 38, but I won’t be able to ride it until May, so who the fuck knows.

sounds like somebody needs a shiny red thing

for those long cold winter months

 

[HardtailHack]

Woo industries introduces jiggywittit saddle technology. It's a seat clamp but with elastomers

hot on the heels is our crankinit technology, which is a pedal spindle......but with elastomers

All of this of course immediately following our introduction to the bike industry of our Icanseeshitdawg™ technology, our signature eye contact line.....made of elastomers. Guaranteeing you can probably totally see straight because mountainbiking is rough. But we're doing everything we can to make you think we can turn a vehicle 1/5 your weight into a smooth operator.

What about a carbon post with an elastomer?

Special-ed may still have a seat with elasomers, I know they did a few years back.

 

[iRider]

What about a carbon post with an elastomer?
View attachment 204276
Special-ed may still have a seat with elasomers, I know they did a few years back.

What about some real suspension.

 

[Gary]

I count at least 25 possibilities for elastomeric improvements

The future is rosey

#ChanginGearsisHARD #MakeGearGhanginEasier

 

[Gary]

Personally I won't ride at all anyMOAR unless on elastomer sprung pavement

 

[Jm_]

I count at least 25 possibilities for elastomeric improvements

The future is rosey

#ChanginGearsisHARD #MakeGearGhanginEasier

Will they make an oval one?

 

[Kanye West]

It isn't a terrible idea. Not that they contribute to any real travel but they will absorb high frequency vibrations, shit that a system with friction would transfer. The velocity based dyno charts used in suspension tuning is an overly simplistic means of measuring performance, frequency response is also extremely important. I once talked to a guy who tuned shocks for race cars and he explained he could make a straight shim stack perform the same way as a tapered one on the dyno but on a racetrack the tapered stack had a lot more traction. He didn't realize it but I am rather sure the additional mass of the straight stack prevented the shock from properly responding to high frequency chatter.

What can make a smaller square edge bump feel harsher than a larger rounder one is the higher frequency content. This is also not a new idea. If you have ever been in a car where someone has replaced the elastomer (gasp) based shock bushings with nylon ones you can feel how much harsher the ride is. Ultimately the question is whether there is any high frequency content to filter out that the big balloony tires haven't already taken care of.

When I was designing vibration test equipment it was always surprising how much a difference that a specialized 1/4" rubber mat would make.

The teste gets it.

If you have any vehicle with control-arm/coil-over suspension, replace the stock upper arm with one that has a bearing mount to the frame instead of elastomers, and watch your ride quality turn to unbearable shit. Most of the comfort in a passenger vehicle comes from elastomeric damping, not the spring and the strut. Those work at relatively low frequencies. Their bushing at the end of the strut, the LCA frame bushings, and the UCA bushings do a tremendous amount of work at isolating little shit from the road, even when old and worn out.

For a given LCA, they typically have different stiffness elastomers in the front and the rear of the arm too. One is more reactive to ride quality (front edge of tire inputs) and one is more reactive to handling (pure side-loading) even though they can be dimensionally the same. Have seen a 5x difference in stiffness in those before.

Then there is an immense amount of science and engineering in car tires that we don't get to see on mtb's too. We lose lots of the benefit of that isolation because we're trying to slam through inputs that are larger than the sidewall of the tire by like 10x, so the tire sizing on mtb's is optimized for handling rather than comfort. No that's not a justification for fatbikes. It's just a trade that's found to be acceptable to make the whole vehicle faster.

I've got a 2023 Zeb. I have no clue about the sealhead business. I can confirm there is a noticeable difference in the transmission of super high frequency small amplitude braking bumps as a result of the buttercup things...the kinds of bumps that "buzz" the whole chassis. The fork isn't perfect by any means, specifically the damper is kind of limiting and the air spring is on the more progressive side with a bit more initial force than I'd like, but overall the fork is alright. Coming off a 38 I found it more supportive which was my main gripe with that one.

Point is, elastomers in this application, plus a lot of other day-to-day applications are far from a gimmick as long as your expectations are appropriate for them.

 

[Gary]

Will they make an oval one?

Here's hoping

 

[troy]

So, I ordered a new 180mm airshaft (2022 Zeb with Buttercups), and the site I bought from suggested a new seal head kit, is this a performance thing, or what?
Baubles and trinkets?
I mean…it’s RED.

View attachment 204262

Red one is for an older A1 Zeb with Debonair not DebonAir+ (like the one you have) airspring. Pretty sure you don't need it, unless you don't have the original, golden sealhead for whatever reason. So... i call BS.

 

[toodles]

I don't know why you wouldn't get the complete 180mm gold Debonaire+ spring that comes with the gold seal head and buttercup thingy pre installed, rather than fuck around building it up from individual bits?

FWIW, I tried the 170mm Gold debonair buttercup thingy and went back to my A1 spring with the Luftkappe. The RS Debonaire+ spring/buttercup option was really nice through chatter and chunder but the Luftkappe option gives more support in steeps and better front end feel in turns.

Both are better than the stock A1 though

 

[Andeh]

I don't know why you wouldn't get the complete 180mm gold Debonaire+ spring that comes with the gold seal head and buttercup thingy pre installed, rather than fuck around building it up from individual bits?

When I wanted to extend the travel on one of my Zebs from 160->170mm, the only air shaft I could find was the gold one without Buttercup. So I got that and transferred the BC from the 160 to the 170. I believe the Select+ forks that come on OEM bike specs use the same shafts/dampers without the Buttercups.

 

[toodles]

Yeah fair, probably a bit cheaper than getting the whole thing each time I suppose.

 

[rideit]

Yup, the 180 shaft only was $30.00, the whole thing was $95. Worth it to me, it just comes off with an axle clamp and wrench.