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women in combat

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by $tinkle, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    after reading the women's war (nytimes; login req.), i'm still holding the openly sexist position combat roles should go exclusively to men. adding to that, forward deployed positions to included supply lines (jessica lynch comes to mind).

    so with that, if the role of the uniformed military is to win wars (when waged), what to do w/ the women? keep them state-side?

    if so, is this a step back for women's rights, thinly disguised as chivalry, or shall we acknowledge women in dangerous roles are a liability to the mission?
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  2. Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Depends how hard they are. If they're up to the job, what's the problem?
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  3. MudGrrl AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math!

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    One of the biggest compliments I ever got was from a guy (who now is the head of a SWAT), who was brainstorming with another guy about their own Special Ops team. They said they would have me on it.


    If I can do the same friggin job that you can do, why hold me back?

    Just because I don't have the same appendages as you doesn't mean I can't clear a building, can't set up a cordon, can't lead a fire team, can't tote my own rifle.

    Because I have a vagina I have to be a cook on the back line?
    Maybe they (the armed forces) might want to consider a new training program for it's female recruits: crocheting parachutes and cleaning missiles. Maybe the "Men" will feel more secure that all of their dirty heavy work won't be touched by the virginal hands of the womens.


    Don't give me that "men hurt more when they see a woman wounded" bs. Why is my life more important than yours?

    Don't give me that tired excuse about "women being distractions and the unit should be homogenous" crap because that'll send us right back to dividing black and white.

    Don't give me that chivalrous (isn't that just a sparkly word for chauvinistic?) crap about guys wanting to step up and save me, because I can save my own dmn self and probably bring a couple of people with me.
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  4. Silver find me a tampon

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    They should not only be in combat, they should also be eligible for the draft.
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  5. $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    culturally, we tend to value women more than men, and just one telling example is this: do you know who matthew maupin is? if it were tina maupin, we'd have monthly vigils for her, and rightly so.

    psychologically - or wrt propaganda - which would produce more outrage (& more anti-war sentiment): a female soldier bound & gagged on al-jazeera w/ zarqawi & his henchmen behind, or just a "lowly" unknown male E4?

    this is not about operational capabilities & who can better man a ready-bake oven, this is about the real prospect of exploiting a psy-op advantage. in this g.w.o.t., we value our women inversely to the extremists.

    we use the phrase "uncovered meat" as gallows humor; they use it w/ full knowledge & intent of its meaning.

    ** edit ** mudgrrl: your points are all valid & i've held similar beliefs since i first joined up during gulf war I. that's not my angle here. i leave that crap to burly. i think i hear him coming down the hall now...
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  6. MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    The secret to teaching men to fight as a unit, close in, for long campaigns, is by sexualizing aggression. Been that way since the dawn of time. Don't throw women into that mix. Not fair to the men, not good for the women. The troops are conditioned to perceive and act one way in society, another in the field when they're among men and accomplishing the mission. Don't bring society to the field.

    The other fact is that men simply don't interact with women the same way they do with men. Two men and a woman on a machinegun team? Laying on top of each other and operating the gun? Men bond in a group, men and women form an exclusive bond between themselves. You can't put 19 year old men and women together in the most incredibly stressful and isolated circumstances possible and not expect them to ****. When they ****, there are huge problems. There's exclusion, there's anger, jealous, and a breakdown of the sorts of bonds that keep the unit and the chain of command together.

    There are problems enough in mixed non-infantry units. Mixed gender simply will not work for offensive ground combat units, and I don't think you'll find enough women to make a viable all-female combat unit. If you can, fine with me, as long as they can pack the gear and do the job.

    Mudgrrl, the vast difference between the sexes transcend the minor differences of race. The comparison simply isn't valid.

    I'm not saying that a mixed unit can't survive combat. Especially with today's "people" power deficit in the military, we need every body we can get, and women can fire a weapon just as well as men. The problem does not come when a rear-echelon (whatever that means today) is forced to fight (which again, is often)...there's a HUGE difference between frontline offensive combat units and others. Yes, in the battlefield today, everyone may have to fight. But fighting for your life when someone attacks you is still lightyears away from being a trained group tasked with locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy.

    Before I joined the military, i would have never believed any of this, by the way. And I don't work in the infantry anymore; I work in a field where many of us deploy to other countries and carry lots of guns, and we kick in doors in the US as well. I do this alongside women, men, gays, straights, and all races, happily and without complaint, so long as my peers of any gender or orientation are competent. In fact, on the 'softer' side of my job, having people of all backgrounds and types is an enormous asset for relating to the various people we need to relate to. (ed: Not to say that's the only reason for having mixed backgrounds...like I said, anyone who can do my job is welcome to do it. But we're not the infantry)

    But I will never, ever think it's a viable option for offensive ground combat units to have mixed genders, nor will I stand idly by if someone tries to make that happen during my lifetime. The military is about killing people and breaking things, not providing some model for or mirror of normal society. The military should not be victimized by society's idealism.

    MD

    PS Mudgrrl, to your comment about special ops...#1, he was probably trying to get in your shorts. Men are like that. #2, ironically, special ops are potentially an area where women could actually work, I think...but the acession process requires you to be infantry first, so until we have homogenous female combat units, I don't think we can have that...
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  7. Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Does that apply to gays-in-uniform too?
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  8. MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    Nope.
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  9. Thylacine New Member

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    I hear they're doing a remake of 'Sniper' staring Jessica Biel.
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  10. MudGrrl AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math!

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    Oh, thanks for pointing that out.

    The only way a woman can get anywhere in this world is by letting guys in their pants.

    How many woman bosses do you have and how many of them do you think slept with someone to get there?


    It's too bad you weren't on any of my teams (and know how I work), you would know better than to say something so obviously chauvinistic and degrading about me and my team.
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  11. MudGrrl AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math!

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    awwww...the po widdle mens can kill, but for some odd reason can't control themselves around a woman.... (kinda like how women in the middle east must cover themselves up because men can't control themselves).

    Woman must be made out of kryptonite.
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  12. Da Peach Outwitted by a rodent

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    Just keep those women away from my kids, like the gays.
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  13. DRB unemployed bum

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    I couldn't agree with this statement more:

    I'll I'm going to say is that thank god, I would not have to command infantry units integrated with women.
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  14. MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    I never said you or any other woman got where you/she did by sleeping with anyone.

    I have no problem working for my female boss.

    I even said I could envision women working successfully in special ops...it's not the line infantry, it's made of another class of individual, and its purpose is not generally the same as that of the line.

    As to your burqua comment, I think saying that women can work in the military, that I and others can and do work with women in demanding environments with guns and bombs, is far from even suggesting that women are incapable or need protection from men's animal nature.
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  15. $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    so, should we have the same measure of qualification for both men & women in combat roles? come eval time, there is some battery of tests, to include individual effort (timed run for distance, fireman carry, or some other battle of the network stars obstacle course).

    because there's the glaring & significant physical differences between the sexes, i contend this translates to a higher risk of capture and killing of our women. of course, this would all fall apart if evaluation is irrespective of the presence of junk. and this would hopefully not be the result of "dumbing-down" physical aptitude (i.e. making qualification for a woman be that she's as strong as the weakest male team member).

    iirc, all spec ops (seals, pj's, cct's, tacp, rangers, green berets, etc.) are exclusively male teams. i don't believe they even extend an invitation to females.

    is this b/c they have "high" standards, or "different" standards? and why is that?
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  16. MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    Stinkle, I don't think physical ability has anything to do with it. That's a personal characteristic, and there are women who are strong enough and men who aren't, whatever the overall trends are... Those overall trends don't matter. What matters is the mixing of sexes (and genders, to be perfectly PC-academic-feminist about it) in the ground combat environment, no matter the individual abilities.

    I realize why that's never going to sit with strong women, educated in a society that teaches that sexual difference is a minor bit of plumbing, and that only our mental construction of gender holds men and women from being otherwise identical and self-creating.
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  17. Silver find me a tampon

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    Too bad. If women want the benefits of a global empire, they should have to buck up and die for it just like the men do. Equality, and all that...
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  18. ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Frankly, yes, even if it's only 10% of them (and it's probably more like 50%). Also, as Mike pointed out it's not (always) about controlling themselves, it's about group bonding, and you can't seriously tell me that mixed sex groups bond in the same way that single sex groups do. Whether it's a societal disease or something that is engrained in our DNA, the reality is there's a major difference and the battlefield is not the right place to pretend otherwise.
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  19. Kihaji Norman Einstein

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    The problem with women in combat is not women, it's men.

    There have been studies(I'll try and dig them up), that demonstrate that men in combat with women take an overly protective stance when it comes to women. They see them as mothers/sisters/wives and give them more attention for a situation than they would another man. This leads to distraction, and more casualties.
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  20. $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    not quite what i meant; i was going after current military standards, and - as you've so succinctly put it - the military exists primarily to break schyte & kill people, so we should curry the strongest from our people. but, the current climate seeks sex-specific qualifications just to get in the door.

    this is to say nothing about sub-saharan menses; that's gotta be teh suck.
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  21. MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    Oh, they're dying and getting mutilated in droves, Silver...no need to fret about that...
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  22. Secret Squirrel There is no Justice!

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    [chauvanistic moment + bad humor]The insurgents could smell 'em a mile away...[/chauvanistic moment + bad humor]

    Back to your regularly schedule bludgening.
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  23. jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    As long as they are hot, they can be on my team any day.
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  24. Old Man G Funk Choir Boy

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    Hence the burqua comment from Mudgrrl.
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  25. Old Man G Funk Choir Boy

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    So, does this mean:
    A) That men have the market cornered on killing and breaking sh*t?
    B) That the military is a regressive environment that should not modernize to the way things are?

    Also, how is the military "victimized by society's idealism?" Does that hold for the rest of the world, or just the military, and if the latter, why?
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  26. Old Man G Funk Choir Boy

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    Ever watched the movie "Glory"? It's about the same thing, only substitute "blacks" for "women."

    And, if those 10% can't control themselves, perhaps they should be the ones that are left out, not the able-bodied women. Once again, the burqua comment seems prescient.
    #26
  27. MudGrrl AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math!

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    I've been thinking that all day.


    It's like the women in the coal mines who were harassed.
    Or the women in the article who are being harassed.

    It's not our friggin fault.
    We came to do a job.
    We don't need special recognition.
    We just want to be treated fairly.


    Fix the problem .... it's the guys who view us as weak ( or as one @sshole put it.... "fairer").
    It's the guys who somehow feel emasculated because a "girl" can also do his job.
    Fix them.

    As for standards of admission... no, don't "dumb down" the requirements on running, lifting, whatever. But don't exclude us because we have chick parts.
    #27
  28. Old Man G Funk Choir Boy

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    Anyone who's taken one in the Jimmy knows that manparts can be a drawback as well.
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  29. MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    A) In terms of doing it as an organized unit, yep, as history has shown...but I'm totally willing, as I've pointed out, to conceed that all-female combat units could potentially work.

    B) Modernity doesn't change a thing. Your Glory example below does not admit to what I think is an essential truth...differences in race are cosmetic, differences in sex/gender are monumental and non-contextual at a certain level. (Yes, there's a lot of conditioning/societal context involved in inter-gender interaction, but there are still physical/social/sexual gaps that simply can't be bridged by changing the way we interact/talk. Sue me for thinking more like Camille Paglia than Gloria Steinem.)

    C) The military is victimized when its combat effectiveness and survivability are subjugated to a cosmetic political agenda.


    Edit: if you can, get a hold of Paglia's "Rape and Modern Sex War." It's a brilliant few pages, as much as I think she's full of crap a lot of the time. Unfortunately, I don't know where it was ever published...I have a photocopy of it from some periodical sometime in the 90s...

    Edit agin: I also haven't brought up the biggest taboo in discussing this topic: Pregnancy. I sort of hesitate to, but it might just be fun.

    So, if men were subject to a condition which could make them non-deployable for 9-18 months (given maternity leave, complications, whatever) at a time, they'd never be allowed in the military. You thought flat feet were bad. But can we, or should we, make pregnancy, planned or unplanned, a punishable offense? No. Can/should we enforce mandatory depo-provera injections? No. Hysterectomies? No.

    Did warships that started having female crewmembers have massive rates of pregnancy? Yep.
    #29
  30. ohio The Fresno Kid

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    No it's not. Sexuality is something instinctual. Racism is not.

    Oh FFS, this is not about chauvinism or anyone feeling less of a man. It's that group behavior changes. Group behavior that is critical to performing a mission. I have no problem with sending women on solo missions (though stinkle might), or all women teams.

    Whether we like it or not, we have evolved in certain ways. Of the people I know, I probably have the most non-romantic relationships with members of the opposite sex and they're normal, healthy relationships, but my interactions with them or bigger mixed groups are not the same as with all men, nor are theirs the same as when it's all women. Unlike racism, wishing that were different is not enough to change it.
    #30
  31. Silver find me a tampon

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    So? The US has the most effective military in the world. If infantry grunts with small brains and huge testosterone are really requirements, I have a very large bone to pick with Pentagon spending...
    #31
  32. Silver find me a tampon

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    Yes. Condition of employment. I'd actually like to see pregnancy taken off the list of stuff that you get medical leave for at a job, but that's a whole other discussion...
    #32
  33. Old Man G Funk Choir Boy

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    You are defending what I think is a patriarchal view by pointing to history that has been patriarchal in nature. Yes, men have done the majority of killing and destruction...because women have been subjugated and not been allowed to participate.

    Yes, there is a difference between sex and race, but not admitting someone for either reason when they can do the job is still discrimination.

    I don't find it "cosmetic" at all to want equal rights for all. That is what we are talking about here. I understand your stance that all women fire teams would work for you, so I'm not trying to call you a bigot or anything like that, but I do think the separate but equal aspect of your solution is not a good solution, especially when the majority of people who hold this view do so most likely due to preconceptions about how frail women are or something. (Again, not accusing you of anything.)
    No, I don't think mandatory depo shots are a good thing. I'll freely admit that pregnancy is a sticky subject and something that should be discussed.
    #33
  34. Old Man G Funk Choir Boy

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    To some extent that is true, but not to the extent as to how men treat women. Racism and chauvinism are both learned traits.

    I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face. Yes, it is about chauvinism. It's about male-centric thinking that has been institutionalized. And, the group behavior you are talking about is part of that.

    I disagree. It's not evolution that has caused us to subjugate women to the point where it becomes socially acceptable to exclude them.
    #34
  35. MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    This argument will go on ad nauseum and the victor of the thread will be determined by stamina.
    #35
  36. Silver find me a tampon

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    Well, that means the ladies will drop out...
    #36
  37. MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    I dunno. The voracity of women is a persistent theme in male fears...
    #37
  38. Old Man G Funk Choir Boy

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    Yet they can't fight?:monkey:

    Let me just finish by saying that if someone can do the job and is willing to do the job, we shouldn't say, "No."
    #38
  39. $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    as well as:
    - age requirement
    - academic requirement
    - criminal background check
    - admission to being openly homosexual
    - prior service
    - admitted substance use
    - having too many kids
    - health issues
    - financial irresponsibility
    - belonging to certain militia groups

    point is, the military is highly selective (when compared to civilian sector), and for what they will call good reason. and i agree.

    tell me again why there aren't female spec ops units, or at least female members in spec ops? is it really b/c we're not "being all we can be"?
    #39
  40. MudGrrl AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math!

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    I've been fighting this sexist mindset about the military for 10 years.




    I won't stop.




    (and I know you're kidding Silver)


    I vividly remember MSgt Stottlemeier telling me a joke on my first tour in the field..

    Amn Craig... do you know what they call a female PeaCock?

    A PeaCunt.




    :disgust1:
    He also aired his views about women in the military.



    Just last fall I had the same argument that is going on here.


    When the sexism stops, I'll be happy.
    #40