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Which damper... RC2 FIT or Avalanche SSD?!

tkm16

Chimp
Dec 21, 2013
7
0
I blew my fox 36 RC2 (inverted fit) over the weekend and only really noticed something was wrong on the last decent. Iv had the damper to my LBS and they have quoated me £180 (nearly $300) to rebuild the damper as it needs a new shaft assembly plus rebuild.
So im now wondering if I should just upgrade to the avalanche damper. I know it will work out alot more (around £350 after import tax) but is it worth it?
Id like to hear some feedback from people who have done the SSD upgrade and how much better the fork behaves over various terrain ect...
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Will a charger cart fit? :thumb:

As per the usual, I don't have anything useful to add, but I'd say whichever one has the longest recommended service intervals. The FIT cart on my 2012 Float 36 felt great after a fresh bleed and *full* rebuild, but it didn't seem to take long for it to get pretty "ehhh" afterwards.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,192
media blackout
only sorta related - i replaced the damper in my 40 with an avy and have no regrets. granted, the damper i was replacing was the pre-fit cart.
 

tkm16

Chimp
Dec 21, 2013
7
0
I seem to of been on the Avalanche website for hours trying to understand the technology in their cart...it does look impressive and I think the midvalve would sort alot of my issues I seem to be having with the fit cart but I still dont know if its worth the £350ish notes to get hold of one!
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
If your chassis is in decent working order, it's well worth it. I ran their cart for a while and loved it. True low speed compression support to avoid diving/g-outs and keep the chassis stable, while blowing off easily for sharp edged high speed hits. The faster you go in chunk, the smoother and better it feels. It's what suspension should feel like IME. I'm either going to do their pike cart mod or buy a new cart to drop into my pike this winter while our trails are covered in snow.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
Open bath sound pretty damn good on that fork. Changing oil in the FIT cart is a pain and you need to do it fairly often to keep the fork feeling good.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
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fit cart is higher maintenance but theoretically higher performance, with a pressurized bladder to compensate for heat buildup. The avy cart uses more oil in an open bath to compensate for heat, so it will theoretically be less consistent, but I don't think it's something you'd really notice. You'll lose high speed compression adjustment, too.

I think the big draw to the avy cart is robustness and reliability, combined with a custom tuned damper to your weight and riding style. I have heard multiple people complain about tunes from Avy though, so unless you have a distributor over in sunny england, you may need to send it back once or twice to have it tuned, unless you can do it yourself.

If you're paying to have it rebuilt, I'd say find a place that will tune it (if you feel it needs it) and stick the FIT cart back in. Save the avy carts for forks that really benefit from it, like older boxxers, zokes, and compressionless low-end foxes.
 

tkm16

Chimp
Dec 21, 2013
7
0
Thanks for that sandwich. As my riding has improved I seemed to be having more of a nightmare trying to get the fork setup correctly. I found the fit cart would dive through its travel too quickly under braking and increasing lsc did help but then was rough over the fast, small bumps. I did think about getting the fit cart tuned but then I'd be looking at £250 which is close to avalanche territory.
Is there anything I could play with on the damper to improve the brake dive without affecting small bump performance?
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
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borcester rhymes
Honestly I've been able to get almost all of my avy stuff to feel great, be consistent, and tuned within 9/10s of where I want them to be without much effort, even though they might be considered "low tech". They've lasted unfathomably long amounts of time with no maintenance, and don't seem to give much up to newer model dampers. I'm not a pro, I just like it when my fork/shock feels "good" and doesn't fight me. If you're unsatisfied with the damping range of the fit cart then it's probably not worth getting it rebuilt! You'll get a tuned cart and the robustness of an open bath, and the fox has great seals on it.
 

ChrisRobin

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
3,346
190
Vancouver
I've liked my Avy cartridges although if you get unlucky and find the tune isn't exactly what you wanted, then you'd have to fork over more cash for the tools to take it apart. That's the situation I'm finding myself in with my two forks.
 

tkm16

Chimp
Dec 21, 2013
7
0
What didn't you like about your tune Chris? I know it's obviously not perfect but is it better than your previous dampers?
 

EVIL JN

Monkey
Jul 24, 2009
491
24
I went from a Boxxer R2C2 to an AVA kit. Have ridden them back to back and the difference is massive in a subtle way. With regards tunes I think you would have to be either very particular about your setup or at either end of the weight spectrum for it to feel more off than your FIT cartridge. I would guess that Craig knows his base tunes fairly well for a given type of riding and weight of rider given his experience.


Best things I found about AVA is the low maintenence, easy of assembly, small bump compliance and composure during hard hits. Since I got it dialed the first time I havent used more than a 3 click range on either the rebound or comp, truly a set and forget kit.
 

ChrisRobin

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
3,346
190
Vancouver
I find in my 888 Evo the high speed is harsh. Although the low speed and mid-valves are great and you actually feel them working. That's my only real complaint with that one and I haven't had to really deviate from the suggested settings. It's also not a big deal if I want to get the tools and to tinker with it myself. Overall I like the 888 better with the cartridge installed. In my old school 36 RC2, I find the low speed compression isn't heavy enough. All I've had to do is crank in the compression adjuster well beyond the recommended settings so it feels "ok" now . I find the action of the 36 with the Avy cartridge feels similar to the stock damper. Once I mess with the shims it should be much better.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
I find in my 888 Evo the high speed is harsh. Although the low speed and mid-valves are great and you actually feel them working. That's my only real complaint with that one and I haven't had to really deviate from the suggested settings. It's also not a big deal if I want to get the tools and to tinker with it myself. Overall I like the 888 better with the cartridge installed. In my old school 36 RC2, I find the low speed compression isn't heavy enough. All I've had to do is crank in the compression adjuster well beyond the recommended settings so it feels "ok" now . I find the action of the 36 with the Avy cartridge feels similar to the stock damper. Once I mess with the shims it should be much better.
That's extremely common with stock setups. They have to restrict the damping circuits significantly so heavy people that might ride OEM bikes won't blow the forks/shocks apart. It's also more expensive to put in more complex damping circuits combined with anti-bottoming cones and other features, so you end up getting more of a "one size fits all/good for no-one" setup. Not always and some of the newer stuff like those marzocchis are pretty darn tuneable if you are willing to crack open the cart and revalve it. Most of the manufacturers have upped their game, but still, there's a lot to be gained from custom tuned suspension.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
£350? That's heaps of money for a new cartridge, I wouldn't bother. US$580!

If it were me, I'd get another quote on the FIT cart rebuild, or price up a new one. In most markets an entire replacement damper doesn't cost much more than that. I'm a little dubious of shaft damage (or its cause rather...), can you post pictures of it? Something would have to be very wrong from factory to cause that and I've personally never seen it in any Fox fork I've serviced (even with really badly blown pre-invert FIT cartridges). Is the shop trustworthy/reliable?

In terms of actual damping curves and capability I think the inverted FIT is one the best out there, if a little more support is needed, a light re-valve on the compression does the trick. I think the actual damper geometries are class-leading in terms of allowing lots of support without getting harsh.

A good rule of thumb is if you are running more than 2/3 of the available LSC range and need more support, you should be running more on the HS adjuster (all the way to closed if needed) and possibly less on LS. If you are at full HS and still using over half of the LS range you need to revalve. If LS is past 2/3 there will be unnecessary harshness and you are compensating for insufficient HS with LS.

True low speed compression support to avoid diving/g-outs and keep the chassis stable, while blowing off easily for sharp edged high speed hits. The faster you go in chunk, the smoother and better it feels. It's what suspension should feel like IME. I'm either going to do their pike cart mod or buy a new cart to drop into my pike this winter while our trails are covered in snow.
The factory invert-FIT cart does everything you describe. I've ridden both (in a 40) and personally I don't think the Avalanche offers anything over a properly set up current model FIT. It would also add a decent amount of weight in oil for no real reason.

I do think the factory cartridge seal head could use improving (it's a stupid design on Fox's part) but if someone wanted to genuinely improve the FIT cartridge they would only need to re-make that part, not a whole new one. It would be a lot cheaper for the end user too. I just ended up putting a proper pressure seal in mine and it's been reliable since.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
The factory invert-FIT cart does everything you describe. I've ridden both (in a 40) and personally I don't think the Avalanche offers anything over a properly set up current model FIT. It would also add a decent amount of weight in oil for no real reason.
I'd think the benefits would be easier servicing at longer intervals. That's the one area of improvement I could see for my Fox's.
 

tkm16

Chimp
Dec 21, 2013
7
0
Funny you should say that udi, I spoke to a mate at work who had work done at the same shop and they told him he needed new parts as well... Don't think I'm going to bother with that shop!
I decided to strip the damper myself tonight, the damper shaft looks fine to me but I did find this:
image.jpg


The image isn't the greatest but this is the cart with the bladder removed and those silver specals are metal flakes, and there seemed to be lots of bits in the damper fluid too. Any ideas what this could be?!
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Funny you should say that udi, I spoke to a mate at work who had work done at the same shop and they told him he needed new parts as well... Don't think I'm going to bother with that shop!
I decided to strip the damper myself tonight, the damper shaft looks fine to me but I did find this:
View attachment 118430

The image isn't the greatest but this is the cart with the bladder removed and those silver specals are metal flakes, and there seemed to be lots of bits in the damper fluid too. Any ideas what this could be?!
Check the DU bushing in the seal head, it's pretty common for that to get a bit gouged up and dump a whole lot of metal debris into the cartridge. Be aware that if you remove the seal head from the shaft, you'll need a 10mm bullet tool to get it back on, otherwise you'll damage the seal when you reinstall it (if you can get it on at all).
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
It's hard to tell from the picture if the hard anodizing has actually worn through at any points, has it?
Did it blow the bladder or what?

I'd think the benefits would be easier servicing at longer intervals. That's the one area of improvement I could see for my Fox's.
For $580US though? Also adds ~150g according to Avalanche.
Also, on their website it says you need to purchase the old <2011 Fox topcap (from Fox) if you have a new inverted cart Fox 36. Is this still the case? Seems like it'd add further cost if it is, unless OP included this in the quoted price.

 
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djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
Value is very subjective - you can figure out for yourself if it's worth it to you or not. For me it would depend on how long I planned on keeping it and how much I could resell it for later.