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Totally clutch, or why I give a **** about 10 speed now

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by kidwoo, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    #1 Dec 12, 2012   
  2. boylagz New Member

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    ^ Nice woo. Ive been with the X9 Type 2 in my V10 since summer and its been awesome. Me like silent bikes :D
    #2 Dec 12, 2012   
  3. SuboptimusPrime Member

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    Interesting points on the feature differences between Shimano and SRAM--and my experience mirrors yours in terms of SRAMs tolerating more out-of-whackness and still shifting well. Being that it is a review of derailleurs, could you comment on any differences in the shifting quality and/or reliability of the two derailleurs? Based on the bikes you used for the test, I'm guessing they were run with some type of chain guide, but it would be worth noting whether there was any advantage in terms of chain retention. Thanks for contributing actual, you know, content to RM :thumb:
    #3 Dec 12, 2012   
  4. Da Peach Outwitted by a rodent

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    I choose to not give a €£%^{#} while wearing a speedo.
    #4 Dec 12, 2012   
  5. OGRipper Active Member

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    Another good article. Dude, you're on a roll.

    I agree with your conclusion about the new stuff: Clutch derailleurs are awesome and 10 spd chains don't handle shifting under load as well as chains with wider spacing.

    But my experience with 9spd was different. I tried hard to like SRAM but the rear derailleurs were just not nearly as durable for me as Shimano. It seemed that even a glancing hit would crush the parallelogram enough to render a SRAM der useless. Even before the low profile shadow stuff I got far more durability from Shimano.

    Factor in the brakes and cranks and Shimano is the clear winner for me. But I would like to thank SRAM for providing some serious competition and forcing Shimano to step up their game in recent years.
    #5 Dec 12, 2012   
  6. mattmatt86 Active Member

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    Awesome, my new bike has a x9 type two, can't wait to give it a try. Are their any differences with cage lengths and the effect on the clutch/friction/shifting? Just wondering if guys running 1x10 on trail bikes are noticing any difference between cage lengths.
    #6 Dec 12, 2012   
  7. kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Which ones did you have? They did have some crappy ones with thin bars forming the derailleur parallelogram but it's been a few years now. X.0s from the beginning have been insanely durable......I think I just retired my last one from 2003. As the years went on some of that trickledown started, the x.9 stuff got pretty damn awesome. My bigggest problem with them was that the main pivot that houses the hanger bolt would get a lot of play in it (talking years here though) but they still always shifted flawlessly.....even when bent.

    SubPrime: It's kind of funny the sort of convergence in lever throw that both companies have achieved. It was always pretty obvious there was a difference when sram advertised 1:1 actuation and Shimano 1:2. They're both like 1:1.5 now (seriously). I've heard of some folks even being able to mix shifters and derailleurs between the brands and it working for the most part. I haven't tried it though.

    I've have broken or bent either one of them yet so I'm kind of useless for super long term durability info. The sram stuff hasn't even been out that long. But yeah, every bike either of these were on were with some sort ofchainguide.....at the minimum a blackspire stinger on my trailbike. Both make a huge difference comparable to riding without a chainguide and then sticking one on. It's nuts.

    Matt: both companies do a short medium and long cage so you've got options whichever way you go. Mine were both medium cages. That's a good point about the length of the cage and leverage. Kind of another point for shimano since you can adjust it IMO.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
    #7 Dec 12, 2012   
  8. jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    Pretty soon woo will be raving about 29ers :rolleyes:
    #8 Dec 12, 2012   
  9. Nick My name is Nick

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    I'm slowly piecing together a 10-sp group, just need the chain and shifters to be ready.
    Actually was considering the chain strength issue and contemplating going low end chain, thinking it will be stronger than an XTR level with hollow pins and speed holes.

    edit: I like how the new Shimano i-spec shifters integrate with the new Shimano brake lever mounting. Less clutter.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
    #9 Dec 12, 2012   
  10. the law New Member

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    One thing I noticed is that my 10-speed Shimano stuff required fewer adjustments than my older 9-speed SRAM shifting. Is that also the case for 10-speed to 10-speed?
    #10 Dec 12, 2012   
  11. ZoRo Active Member

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    A quasi-dissertation about the pros and cons of bending a chain.

    Good stuff as usual. Won't upgrade till the 9 speed stuff falls apart, but I can see the point
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
    #11 Dec 12, 2012   
  12. 'size Active Member

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    i was running an xcx on my 1x10 5" trail bike but decided to take it off and see if the x9 clutch could handle it. so far i haven't lost a chain and the bike is even quieter. win.
    #12 Dec 12, 2012   
  13. csermonet Member

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    Would love the benefits of the clutch system, but a little nervous about the durability of the 10sp chain. Good write up!
    #13 Dec 12, 2012   
  14. slyfink Active Member

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    i tried that. didn't work. I would lose a chain several times a ride. Maybe it depends on terrain and riding style? I'm a brute and I ride in rocky terrain. Up and down...
    #14 Dec 13, 2012   
  15. Sandwich just shake your rump

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    Man, I desperately want one of these for nine speed. I've wondered if there's any way to convert the shifter ratio to make it work. The concept of switching to a less durable chain to get an extra gear I don't feel like I need just doesn't work for me.
    #15 Dec 13, 2012   
  16. jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    Shimz?
    #16 Dec 13, 2012   
  17. Cant Climb Active Member

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    Brazar - "or pull it back into your chainguide"
    -------------------------------------------

    One of the advantages to 10speed clutch is you can run a nearly weightless 1x chain retention device.....that's what i've seen on limited scale here.

    For me, not going off 9 speed (shimano) anytime soon, works well enough...
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    #17 Dec 13, 2012   
  18. motomike Active Member

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    Exactly. Also worth mentioning is that being able to run one of those chain guides (like an E.13 XCX) you get rid of a lot of drag that you would normally have from the bottom roller of a regular chainguide setup.
    #18 Dec 13, 2012   
  19. OGRipper Active Member

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    XO and X9. Might have been bad luck, but the last straw was when a brand new XO got squashed on a relatively light hit. I think I got three rides out of it and those things are not cheap. User error played a factor for sure but I have always had much better luck on Shimano.

    As for durability questions, I've been riding the same XTR shadow plus for more than a year and half (two full riding seasons and then some) on my nomad in all kinds of terrain and conditions. In that time I've broken my hanger a few times and bent it more than that, but the derailleur is still straight and going strong (as is the rest of the group). I've been super stoked on the new XTR stuff for sure.
    #19 Dec 13, 2012   
  20. kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    XTR stuff always seemed burly for sure. But not being able to say the same thing about X.0 is like a different language to me.

    You remember when you and I used to run into each other at Northstar all the time? I JUST got rid of the derailleur that was on my dh bike then. The ti spring broke. I should take some pics of the thing, it's hilarious what it looks like. I wonder if there was an intermediate year or two in there when they started putting a little more plastic on them that cut down the functionality. But I can honestly say, I've never retired an X.0 derailleur because it was bent to the point of not shifting evenly........and I've had a few of them.

    Anyway.......screw all of it. Clutches are like 650b. You will all submit and like it. :D
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    #20 Dec 13, 2012   
  21. boylagz New Member

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    Would love to get my hands on them new Saints :drool: Any of you know if the spacer thingy comes with the derailleur for different sized cassettes?!
    #21 Dec 13, 2012   
  22. captainspauldin Member

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    Yeap, my favorite part about running this setup, that and how quiet it is.
    #22 Dec 13, 2012   
  23. OGRipper Active Member

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    Pretty amazing run for a derailleur dude, especially in the stuff you ride. I don't remember bending cages, my issue was crushing the parallelograms to the point where they would get hung up on the knuckle and be blocked mechanically from moving to my 2 or 3 smallest cogs. Didn't take much. Maybe the newer ones are better, don't know. I've always been a Shimano guy anyway.
    #23 Dec 13, 2012   
  24. Cant Climb Active Member

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    I always thought the value in the Shimano 9 speed deraillers was in the super low-end (Deore) or the high end (XTR). The stuff in the middle didn't have as much "value to dollar" for a variety of different reasons.
    #24 Dec 13, 2012   
  25. gemini2k Active Member

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    Kidwoo, did you never have problems with the SRAM stuff taking one hit and then being so bent it couldn't shift the entire range? That always seemed to happen with mine and why i stopped running them. One hit, it would be bent and shift fine through 6-7 out of 9 gears, but couldn't get into the gear on the end. Was there some stupid simple fix like just forcing it and bending it back that I was too stupid/lazy to do?

    Many people around here seem to have the same problem.
    #25 Dec 13, 2012   
  26. kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    I don't think I've ever crushed a cage.......they usually just break off and then you replace it. The bent parallelogram is exactly what gets bent though. I know exactly what you're talking about rubbing on the knuckle though. You never tried to bend them back? I think that's where you might have given up too soon. I've resurrected precisely every single one of mine at least once that way.

    But that's why I used them for so long....I could just keep doing that and they'd work. :rofl:


    edit:
    gemini: x.9.....yes Although some of the ones that started to look like early X.0s I could bend back. X.0s......I could always bend those back. I wasn't kidding when I said that I never quit using them because of they're shifting performance. Something else would happen like either the ti spring would break, or the bolt that goes into the frame would seize or lock up from being in the same place for so many years (or maybe that was bent too and binding).

    Is this going to be like my rim picture where nobody believes me until I put up a pic? :D


    But I guess that's another benefit of the 10sp clutch stuff. They're totally new designs so most of us have no idea how either will fail or annoy.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    #26 Dec 13, 2012   
  27. Speedgoat9 New Member

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    It's definitely possible. There is a crazy Russian around here that took a clutch equipped SLX mech and converted it to seven speed. We ask told him to not waste his time, but low and behold, in mother Russia apparently the rear mech does NOT shift you.....
    #27 Dec 13, 2012   
  28. OGRipper Active Member

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    Oh I believe you, just saying my experience was different. And it sounds like Gemini and I are talking about the same thing.

    And yeah except for the last one, which was the last straw and went straight in the garbage, I tried bending them back and they were never the same again. Even if I could get it to clear the knuckle the shifting would be inconsistent across the range of gears. Glad you had better luck. I'll need a strong reason to buy SRAM again any time soon.
    #28 Dec 13, 2012   
  29. big-ted Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.

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    From what I've seen, the new clutch systems are awesome, but that has nothing to do with ten speed. The manufacturers are basically saying, "Hey, we came with this cool new idea for rear derailers. Oh, but we're only going to fit it to our new stuff, which just so happens to require a new shifter, cassette, chain, etc. It's not that we couldn't fit this new clutch to a 9-speed derailer if we wanted, we just don't want to."
    #29 Dec 13, 2012   
  30. kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Sounds familiar eh? I at least had the satisfaction of mixing bits......cranks/cassette: shimano, derailleur/shifter/chain: SRAM. Now I'll be buying almost all shimano so those damn fishing reel people really got me.


    Yeah it just seemed like it was always easier for me to knock xt and xtr stuff out of whack.......plus they just rattled so much more.

    Write it off to differences in smash steeze.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    #30 Dec 13, 2012   
  31. gemini2k Active Member

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    I'd rather see a pic of your e-rep page! :P
    #31 Dec 13, 2012   
  32. Sandwich just shake your rump

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    wait, so forced obsolescence in your drivetrain = good, forced obsolescence in your wheels = bad.

    K.

    But seriously I need to brush up on my e-engineering to figure out how to get 9 gears out of one.
    #32 Dec 13, 2012   
  33. kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    God no. If I could be convinced a clutch derailleur worked on a 9sp setup there's not a chance in hell I would have bought all this crap.
    #33 Dec 13, 2012   
  34. Sandwich just shake your rump

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    problem solvers dot com.

    SOBs better get busy.
    #34 Dec 13, 2012   
  35. steelforeel New Member

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    Someone in MTBR was running Zee 10s clutch der with Sram 9s shifter and 9s cassette. Apparently the ratio is same or close enough...
    #35 Dec 13, 2012   
  36. Sandwich just shake your rump

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    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    #36 Dec 13, 2012   
  37. OGRipper Active Member

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    Makes you wonder if they would sell MORE clutch derailleurs in the short term if they were compatible with 8 or 9spd. Plenty of folks will upgrade a derailleur (out of necessity or desire), but fewer will replace an entire drivetrain. But I guess it doesn't matter since they will soon stop producing the old stuff altogether, forcing the new drivetrain purchase at some point anyway.

    As for the parallel with 650B, I have a much easier time accusing the only two major drivetrain players of a conspiracy toward planned obsolescence than dozens of independent bike companies.
    #37 Dec 13, 2012   
  38. Dogboy Active Member

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    Good point and seems accurate to me. Shimano and SRAM were already into the 10-speed generation when the clutch derailleurs came out.

    An yeah, the clutch derailleurs rock. I haven't tried a SRAM version yet, but the XTR I've been running for over a year now has been awesome.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    #38 Dec 13, 2012   
  39. Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    I used to only run Shimano cranks. Then, I switched back over to their pedals. Then, I switched to their new trail brakes. And now after my order today, I am switching over everything on the drivetrain. I have been wanting a clutch der. since they came out, but said I was gonna wear out my 9 speed drivetrain first. So, now my cassette and chain and chainring are toast. My shifter is a 6 year old XO that needs replacing, and my x9 der. is a bent and a couple of years old. Order placed for all XT. Giddy up.
    #39 Dec 13, 2012   
  40. Sandwich just shake your rump

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    Are people running shimano chains and cassettes, or sticking with sram? I've always liked SRAM chains, mostly for their quicklink, but have had good luck with their higher end cassettes as well. Just wondering whether things are flipped in 10spd land.
    #40 Dec 13, 2012   

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