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The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by S.K.C., Oct 17, 2006.

  1. Sandwich just shake your rump

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    As stated, I tried -1.5 cups for 63.5* and thought it was a challenge to take advantage of a bike that slack, but I'm not a super fast guy. I would be happy with a 64* HA on a bike that I ride everywhere at non-WC speeds.
  2. c-kirby New Member

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    Recently bought a used Sunday and its been giving me some bother.

    When i grab my back wheel and pull it side to side, theres play between back of DW link where it connects to the frame, I have checked the 2 bearings at the rear of the DW link and one feels pretty gritty...

    I have read about DW links becoming ovalised and causing play at this point in the frame. Are my bearings just worn out and causing the play? Or is it something more serious?
  3. richgardiner Member

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    You could have worn out your dw link, in which case you should replace the rear dw link axle + bearings and assemble the lot with some loctite bearing retainer compound in the interface between the dw link and the axle that runs through it, to stop the axle spinning in the link (which wears it out) and to ensure that the axle spins in the bearings.

    on that note, is it better to apply the compound to the inside of the link then slide the axle in or the outside of the axle? I want to make it as un-messy as possible this time! :)
  4. c-kirby New Member

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    So is it definitely my DW link? I forgot to mention I have just replaced the axle but I have not replaced the bearings, one of which feels pretty rough. Im going to have a go at replacing the bearings first as tracking down a DW link doesnt seem to be easy and will be more costly.

    Thank you for the tip about bearing retainer compound though! Never heard of that before
  5. the_maxis_233 New Member

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    what kind of loctite recommend?
  6. richgardiner Member

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    think its 609 but not 100% sure, Udi has it covered in this thread somewhere
  7. bengxe Member

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    Its more important that there arent any gaps in the compound when you apply it, you can clean up the excess after you put it back together. I put it on both the axle and the link, and mine has remained solid for a couple months now.
    07-09 links can be found here: http://www.licycleworx.com/product_p/ih-sunll.htm
    I dont know about 05-06 links, but if you need to replace the link it would make a lot of sense to get the front pivot hardware and swap to the 07 lower link.
  8. edmo New Member

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    Awesome!
    I was just about to ask about this. Recently got my hands on an 06 bike after deciding it was a mistake to sell my 07 bike a couple of years ago.
    Apparently the guy's replaced all pivot hardware, but it's good to hear that you can upgrade to the 07 stuff. In preparation for any loose pivots that might develop I might go and buy all the 07 kit anyway.

    I take it there's no actual difference with the pivot locations in the two linkage types? The 07 linkages just have different diameter holes and less material on them, right?
    I'm guessing running an 06 upper link and 07 lower link wouldn't be any issue?
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  9. An0maly New Member

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    What size shock reducers does the frame require ?
  10. ritche Member

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    Replaced the stock e13 reducers, and installed -2 deg works component headset on my frame.

    previous set up: lower bar height, boxxer short crown, microspacers (fsa) between the top crown and compression wedge. stanchions max out.

    Can I get away also of not using the top bearing cover of the works components, under the top crown?

    Will the top bearing get gritty overtime as this is exposed/open to the elements without the top cover?
  11. bengxe Member

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    I wouldnt worry about the bearings. Ive never gone without the cover on my works headset but I have on a few others. Just use enough spacers to keep the crown off the upper cup.
  12. 4130biker Active Member

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    Kicking around the idea of getting an '06 sunday for a good deal. Supposedly this is the world cup. Is there any way to tell? Any durability issues to look for? I read here that the lower link is updated, so that's good...
    I saw that the american 07 factory is lighter than the taiwan frames- is this 06 world cup the heaviest version? After reviewing the first post, I'm still unsure. Am I wasting my time, or should I look into it. A little leary of a six year old frame, but I've been seeing enough people still using them that I'm considering it. Do the headtubes ever shear off of these things? Ok I think thats it.
  13. Sandwich just shake your rump

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    They seemed pretty durable to me. Two seasons under a trumpore and about 2.5 with me, no signs of cracking or anything.

    I think they were heavily revised in 07...ie, the 0506 frames were a bit different than 0708, but if you're not scared of a half pound of weight...

    If you get a good deal on it, I'd still consider it. Mine was a pretty fun bike, but figured out the shock ferrchrissakes...being able to pick any shock I want on my current bike is really pretty nice.
  14. 4130biker Active Member

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    Can't give you rep for helping out, but thank you. I'll see how low this dude will go and decide from there. I like the idea of a cool foundation that can be used for some mods and make a fun bike- kinda like what you're doing!
  15. Sandwich just shake your rump

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    Haha, sure. The best thing about the sunday frames, besides their geometry and robustness, is the wealth of information you can get on them. Plus, they're cheap. They really don't do anything wrong besides the regressive shock rate, but you can supposedly correct that with an RC4. You can get anglesets, drill out your seat mast, run them single crown, double crown, etc. They're neat bikes that pedal really well and rip through the corners, but their taiwaniness can lead to issues, and mine had a nasty spike 2/3 into the travel that I think was related to my DHX. I never got it retuned or pushed or anything, mostly because I was an idiot, but I wanted to try something else.
  16. Udi Active Member

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    All 07+ frames are 0.9lbs lighter than previous frames, and all have the updated F7 linkage. It's worth getting an 07+ if you can, but there are no glaring durability issues with the 06 frames apart from maybe having a few little linkage dramas (which you can upgrade anyway, if you can find the parts). I retired my 07 after riding it for about 6 years (two swiss alps seasons and one whistler season) and it's still sitting in my room with zero cracks or failures.

    Like Sandwich suggested, the coolest thing is that they were quite far ahead of their time when they came out and left a lot of room for modernizing, so it's easy to still be competitive on one today. Acceleration is second to none, and cornering is still class-leading. They do work best with an RC4.

    The shock rate really does not digress that much (we measured it quite accurately on a custom jig and fed the data through linkage) and is easily corrected with any progressive shock to resist bottoming. What makes it less than perfect is actually that there isn't enough progression at the beginning of the stroke (even though it is still progressive) so it won't take the edge off bumps quite as well as a more modern design. The other thing is they aren't the poppiest bike, partially due to the lack of strong progression initially, and partially due to generating end-stroke progression via damping (which absorbs energy) rather than mechanically / via spring rate (which stores and returns energy to the rider).

    With careful shock choice and shock tuning though they are still brilliant bikes though.
  17. Udi Active Member

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    30x10mm for 07+
    I am unsure for 05-06 frames without an F7 linkage.

    No difference in pivot locations, geometry and suspension kinematics of Sunday frames were identical throughout production for consumer frames (05-09). Some small geometry changes for Sam Hill I believe. No issue with running different year links like you said.

    As richgardiner said, to fix play between the rear pivot of the lower linkage and the link itself, loctite 609 retaining compound works well. It is a green liquid. As bengxe said, it is good to be generous with it and clean up the excess later, and it's very important to leave it for full cure time (at least 24 hours) immediately after assembling the pivot.
  18. allen Member

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    23x8mm on the older pre F7.

    Some may disagree on the play or need for a bearing on the lower shock eye but I'm a fan of the RWC bearing on the older pre F7 lower link. I find its hard to get everything to squeeze together adequately when you tighten the lower pin and keep shock reducer bushing from spinning instead of the du busing rotating around the shock reducer.

    On my friends with the older link running updated max-e bearings and the addition of shims from mcmaster we got that thing dialed. It took and allot of patience but it can be done.

    The F7 fixes all this so that's why its such a recommended up grade.

    I thought I read somewhere that Fox has some new busing instead of a DU that is less friction. That would be sweet instead of the RWC bearing. Any one have a link to that info?


    Al
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  19. Udi Active Member

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    Al - I think needle bearings are a bad idea on a low rotation pivot as wear is greatly accelerated, and even on the top pivot I found life before play developed quite short. I found an easy solution to the excessive friction in standard DU bushings is to lathe down the OD of the bushing slightly so it is not clamped as much when pressed into the eyelet, thus decreasing friction greatly. Done correctly, reducer hardware will press in by hand.

    This is the new Fox "five piece" hardware you speak of, which seems to work quite well too:
    http://www.foxracingshox.com/technology.php?m=bike&t=mh&ref=topnav
    It uses IGUS glide bushings.
  20. allen Member

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    UDI, thanks for the fox info. Im in agreement on the rwc stuff. It was kinda like choosing between two evils but your tip of tweaking the du is cool. I'll have to give it a try when I go over things for next season on my bike and my friends if for some reason I can't get the fox stuff.

    Al
  21. An0maly New Member

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    I have the new fox ones in the top. Only just put them in so can't comment on durability or anything yet but they do look nice.
  22. 4130biker Active Member

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    Thanks for the input- I think I'll keep looking for an 07+ then. Sounds worth the wait to me. I got excited when I saw a large for sale- it seems like they aren't as common.
  23. ritche Member

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    I picked up a 9.5x 3.00 kashima fox rc4 shox, with a sticker that says F TUNE any idea what it is?
    Is it ok to use it on IH sunday?
  24. richgardiner Member

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    Building up my 09wc, does it matter which side the black and silver jumbo hex bolts go on? I know the shock pin can only pass through them in a certain direction but does it matter which way around we have the hex bolts?
  25. bengxe Member

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    I guess you could swap them, but you probably want the axle to go out the non-drive side.
  26. Udi Active Member

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    As above, axle slides out of the non-drive side in factory form (bigger ID hole on non-drive side). I'd keep it that way, as it means you can remove shocks without touching the chainguide. If you swapped them, it might make that harder.

    ritche -
    I've never heard of that before, doesn't sound like a fox tune, try it and see.
  27. AndySTi New Member

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    Anyone here running a CCDB with a 350lb steel spring (or even just a CCDB in general)? I'm interested to know your settings. I'm running:
    • 3 turns of pre-load
    • 2 turns HSC & 5 clicks LSC
    • 3 turns HSR & 10 clicks LSR

    I'm 64kg / 141lbs with gear.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  28. RajunCajunNC New Member

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    300lb steel spring, sag is 25-30%.

    1.5 turns of HSC
    17 clicks of LSC
    .5 turns HSR
    9 clicks LSR

    * Note: all setting turns in from full fast/full open.
  29. AndySTi New Member

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    How much do you weigh with gear? I was also on a 300lb steel spring, however, I found it a bit on the soft side. Moving to 350lb has definitely improved things for me.
  30. RajunCajunNC New Member

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    150ish for me. I was running closer to 40% sag with more lsc and hsc, but found the bike to be more stable when things get moving with less sag and a little softer compression tune. Side note also is I run the Boxxer rc with 5% sag up front and compression set 3 clicks from full closed with a med spring. This gives me a stiff bike, but it fells awesome when pushing it.
  31. Mourad Ben New Member

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  32. Grisha New Member

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    Hey guys,
    I've got a serious problem with the shock (Flox Float R) in my Iron Horse MK3.
    I used to have huge horizontal play in the lower DW-Link. I fitted spacers between the link and the rear part of the bike and the play was gone.
    But soon my shock started to lose travel, it "sucked itself in" with every ride, no matter how much air I would pump into it until it only had about 1cm of stroke. I thought some seal must be broken and all the air goes into the negative air chamber (I don't really know how a shock exactly works, so I'm not sure if that's really the problem). I thought this may be a result of the horizontal play, as the shock experienced quite a lot of horizontal force.
    So I bought a used one which first worked perfectly, but after a short time of riding (like 5 Minutes) it started to have the exact same problem as the first one.
    I have no clue what could be wrong. I thought maybe the rear of the bike isn't central, but I fitted the same amount of spacers left and right from the link and it looks alright.
    I also ride the shock up-side-down, but I saw this in many pictures of the MK3 and I think it shouldn't make any difference to the shock. I fitted off-set-bushings, but this also shouldn't make any difference.

    I really hope someone can help me, as I like the bike and can't afford to get another one, because I also need a new DH bike.

    Sorry for my bad English, I'm German and they didn't teach us any technical vocabulary in school ^^
  33. sundaydoug Member

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    Is the shock stuck down? In other words, is it not rebounding to its original position once compressed?

    If so, just google "Fox shock stuck down" and you'll find some info. Apparently it's somewhat common and doesn't mean your shock is ruined, just might need a rebuild.
  34. Grisha New Member

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    Hey,
    thanks, that sounds like it!
    I was wondering why it happens with two different shocks, so I thought something is wrong with the frame, but in another thread here it says this can happen when riding at sub zero temperatures. I should probably try a rock shocks shock, as I mostly use the MK3 in the off season :/
  35. AndySTi New Member

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    I'd say give the 350lb spring ago. You're heavier than me with gear and I think it should suite you. The bike will also feel more balanced. My cornering has improved since moving to 350lb and I'm getting decent support from the middle towards the end of the stroke. In regards, to rough sections, my first impressions with the 350lb are positive. With 300lb I was bottoming out frequently and it wasn't pleasant to ride, especially in the rough. Moving to 350lb has put a smile on my face as the ride is much more balanced and for once I'm getting the correct sag. Looking to get some 350lb Ti goodness now.

    In regards to 300lb, my settings were:
    • 3 turns of pre-load
    • 2.5 tuns HSC & 8 clicks LSC
    • 2 turns HSR & 5 clicks LSR
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2013
  36. juanpkumicho New Member

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    Hey Udi, and everybody here, what's up?

    I was reading the Sunday thread, and I know it may be kinda old but anyway I wanted to ask. My Sunday developed play in the lower link, where it meets the rear triangle. I thought the play was due to the inner races not reaching the lower link. So I made myself a 0.8mm thick washer in a lathe, and assembled everything back together (new pin, new bearings) and the play seems to be gone, which makes sense. Now, I could buy the locktite bearing retainer that Udi recommended here in the thread, and use it between the pin and the link, but I would rather not do it unless it is necessary, what do you think?

    With the spacer I made, now the inner races clamp the lower link nicely and they all move together (instead of the lower link sliding on the pin like before), but I donĀ“t know if maybe under load there will still be some radial play.

    Your opinion is much appreciated fellow Sunday riders.

    Thanks in advance!
  37. sundaydoug Member

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    I would just take it apart and re-assemble with Loctite around the pin and inside of the lower link. I know that I had play in between the link and pin for a couple of seasons before I took it apart and re-assembled it with the Loctite compound. I rode it all season like that and the play hasn't come back.

    My guess is that the play may have caused the bore of the lower link to become just a tiny bit larger, so that even with a new pin play might still develop again. Might as well just get it over with and not have to worry about it.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  38. Udi Active Member

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    As above, it is not the pin that wears, rather the inside of the lower link. I've never seen a case where the bearing inner race didn't reach the lower link (however it might be possible if there is paint in the bearing seat, or some other defect).

    If the play is gone then maybe just leave it alone, but for next time you disassemble it, it's probably not a bad idea to use the 609 compound because it stops the link rotating on the pivot axle. The reason play often develops in the first place is because those two parts move against each other when they shouldn't, so the retaining compound can be thought of as preventative maintenance as well as a solution to when the play develops.
  39. juanpkumicho New Member

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    Well, I don't really know how tight is the original fitting between the pin and the link, but the link doesn't seem to have too much wear, just the natural marks, and the pin goes in as tight as it goes into the bearings (tight but with enough clearance to slide it easily). Anyway, the locktite option seems to be the way to double ensure that I will not have further play develop.
    OK. Is it too difficult to take the pin out after using the 609 compound? Cause that's what I am worried about. The pin I just replace was stuck to the bearings inner race so bad that I had to use a hydraulic press and it still needed a LOT of pressure to come loose.
    So, 609 between the pin and the link, and between the outter bearing races and the rear triangle too, right? (one of my bearings can be placed and removed by hand, doesn't seem to have play, but I think it is at the very starting point to develop play in the future)
    One last thing, I think here in Spain I can only find (without spending 2 weeks looking for it I mean) Loctite 603, not 609, what do you think?

    It is unbelievable that this threads continues, with so much good info and people!
  40. the_maxis_233 New Member

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    I bought Loctite 603 (only find this on local shops), but i don't test yet because i am waiting for a brand new dw lower link.