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The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by S.K.C., Oct 17, 2006.

  1. rocko_n82 New Member

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    Thanks Udi. I'm 73kg with gear on and have a 300lbs spring in it at the moment, it felt pretty good yesterday but I've only ridden it once. It's such a change from the M9 I had before.
    image.jpg
  2. Mourad Ben New Member

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    Pending BOS Stoy
    390131_514797591866845_1222529356_n.jpg 522222_514798018533469_1004661273_n.jpg 3697_514798668533404_1143367985_n.jpg 3428_514797398533531_908559837_n.jpg 485057_514798235200114_1357711294_n.jpg
  3. Huck Banzai Active Member

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    Although I don't have a Sunday, I love this thread.

    Every year I see people swapping for new bikes, all new kit, gear etc -- I wont characterize.

    Im going into year 3 of my v10c and it's still one of the most sought after frames; aside from scuffs, it is, and can be absolutely perfect mechanically for years to come -- I expect at least 5 of use - and it will still be excellent after the fact.

    My 2007 VPFree is short shocked and still in service, running as well as new. As is my 2002 Chameleon.




    And the same for cars.


    bravo!

    Too bad they didnt make real XL Sunday's or I might have to grab one and play this game.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  4. Mourad Ben New Member

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  5. Rocko Member

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    Hi everyone!

    Looks I have just bought a Sunday and I'm trying to rebulid it. I almost have to replace all of the bearings and I have a little problem with the lower link bearing (at the shock) which I don't understand completely. When I removed the retaining bolts bearings came out with them.
    Is it normal?
    When I thighten them back, looks they don't go deep enought into their places and streches the link. So the the sock has a lateral play, not to mention the bearings unsmooth run.
  6. Marius New Member

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    It`s definitely not normal that the bearing comes out with the bolts!! Is the frame still originally painted or does it have a new painting? I have more space now due to removing the old paint, I had to glue the bearings to stay in place.
  7. sundaydoug Member

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    In my best Sheila Broflovski voice: "What, What, WHAT?"
  8. Rocko Member

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    It's the original paint. There's no paint in the bearing's place.
    I have a friend who can make me new bolts. So I can install new bearings and grease the new bolts prevent the above mentioneds.
  9. Marius New Member

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    @sundaydoug: a bit of loctite on the outside of the bearing and then pressed in. It won`t fall out and runs perfect and smooth.
  10. csermonet Member

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    I have some misc Sunday linkage bits, the plates, both the upper and lower link, and some other stuff I believe. I'll post a pic sometime today. Shoot me a private message with an offer if interested, not looking to make a lot of $$, more interested in just being able to help a Sunday owner. I'm now riding a dw DHR but my Sunday served me well and would like to pass some of that on to you guys!
  11. frgeoff New Member

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    check your pm pls!
  12. sundaydoug Member

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    Bearing retainer compound is one thing, but I was picturing someone using actual glue to hold bearings in. Like Elmer's glue.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  13. csermonet Member

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    2012-12-05_10-46-43_167.jpg

    These are the Sunday gubbins I have, let me know via PM if you are interested, with an offer.
  14. the_maxis_233 New Member

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    I am looking for an iron horse Sunday, anyone want sell a Frame size medium 2009?

    cheers
  15. richgardiner Member

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    After a year of trying to kid myself that I was comfortable on my 2010 demo, it looks like I'm going back to a sunday, and I cant bloody wait! Has anyone tried using a shock with a slightly shortened stroke on the frame? I know the cross brace in the rear end would hit the seat tube so that would have to be cut away slightly.

    Also, to people who have cut out the uprights either side of the shock, how much did you cut out? Was it a dremel job?
    Cheers!
  16. Udi Active Member

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    Short shock is a bad idea because of the way dw-link works - the antisquat percentage starts off quite high and then starts falling away after the sag point, which is why you get a combination of excellent acceleration and no perceivable kickback from the pedals. Change the sag point and you change that relationship. For whatever it's worth, the cross-brace meets the seat tube pretty much square, so it would most likely have to be cut completely if at all.

    I also think it's a bad idea because the BB on the Sunday doesn't need to be any lower, especially when slacker cups drop the BB a bit anyway. What I would do instead is throw in whatever cups you need to get the head angle you desire (-2* if needed). I think with a 40 fork and -2* you can get it slack enough for anything really.

    As for the cutouts - just mark it out and then dremel it, I think most people followed my cutout pattern, and I just copied what was on Sam Hill's bike (and took away a small amount more).

  17. BmxConvert New Member

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    Funny, I dumped my 2010 Demo to go back to my Sunday as well.

    I just got an RC4 for my bike so it's time to do a winter tear down. New fork, new rear shock, new bearings, new paint and new wheels. Before I send the frame out for paint, I'm going to dremel out the up-rights. I'll take pictures along the way.
  18. richgardiner Member

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    Cheers guys, god I love this thread!
  19. msaman New Member

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    Heya guys amazing thread
    It gives us some knowledge for this amazing bike :)
    - 2.0 degrees and 17.42 kg or 38.40 lbs.The BB is a bit low at 335mm now but I will get some 165 cranks : ))).
    Already got RC4 ,now need Boxxer WC + Avy cartridge :)
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  20. GekoES Member

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    Hi, can someone tell me the reach length (bb to ht in horizontal) of a medium Iron Horse Sunday?

    Because today a tried a size L Scott Gambler WC20 from a friend, and i'm triying to figure what size of Sunday i need.

    I felt like in home on the large Gambler, and the medium Sunday looks like it have the same TT length.

    PD: Sorry for my english, i hope you can understand me lol
  21. BmxConvert New Member

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    Hit me up if you're interested. I have a 2011 Boxxer WC with a fresh rebuild and new rebound damper. $600
  22. bengxe Member

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    The reach on my medium sunday is about 37cm. The effective top tube is about 56cm.
  23. frgeoff New Member

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    I have the 2011 boxxer WC cartridge for sale to upgrade your boxxer race - $150
  24. hitar_potar Member

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    Uuuumm, what is the general idea behind those cut-outs? Weight saving? It would probably be around 30-40g... not worth it in my opinion! :)
  25. richgardiner Member

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    Would make it a bit easier to clean the shock area I'd imagine
  26. Udi Active Member

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    Offers nothing really, was just a fun way to spruce up an old frame. Like you said, minimal weight savings. Just looks cool, and I discovered later that it makes it much easier to thread a shock pump onto the boost chamber.
  27. the_maxis_233 New Member

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    Finally have a Iron Horse Sunday from 2008 on the way.

    need a little help, what headset angle recommend for iron horse sunday? 1.5 or 2.0?

    another question, on internet where i can find only bolts for frame?

    thanks
  28. saruti Member

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    I recommend the 2.0 angle change.
    makes the bike 63 degree like all the new bikes.
    have fun. its a great frame.
  29. hitar_potar Member

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    Agreed! Mine feels pretty good on 63 degrees, 62 from the sound of some friends of mine is even better. The head tube is strong enough so no worries.
    I, however, have a question. Just installed a needle bearing on the upper eyelet of the shock. It should have eliminated the play in the bushes. But it didn't - it's still the same. The needle bearing has a 8mm inner diameter and the bolt used to hold everything together is also 8mm - it should be nice and tidy. But it's not. Any ideas? (Enduro needle bearings are super pricey compared to my alternative, but if noone has an idea for my problem, i might be forced to buy the whole kit from them)
  30. bengxe Member

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    Isn't the rwc kit only about $40? Am I missing something?
  31. Udi Active Member

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    You can't use a bolt as a needle bearing inner race, it needs to be a precision ground component. Buy the kit.
  32. csermonet Member

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    Udi, you running a Bos fork too? Do you have pics of your bike fully built up? I'm an ex Sunday rider but still love em ha, I'm still on a DW-link frame(DHR). If I had the funds I would love to spruce up a Sunday again. From the pic of your frame yours looks mighty fine. In regards to Bos, how are you liking the shock/fork? Is the Stoy a good match for the DW?

    For anyone who is looking for linkage parts, I have 06 linkage plates and the 06 lower link. Posted pics on the previous page(249)

    Another question for anyone who is running needle bearings in their shock eyelets... Is there a noticeable change in performance? I.e. are they worth it haha
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  33. An0maly New Member

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    Hey I have a stock 06 frame, which came with a DHX. Just wondering if I can run a vivid with it, or will I need a new DW link? And does anyone have a link to one on the net I could purchase if so. Cheers.
  34. csermonet Member

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    Pretty sure the 07+ link will be needed. Aka f7 linkage. I know when I was bringing my old Sunday back to life 2 years ago, there were several companies manufacturing those linkage kits but not sure about today. Very pricey too. I know some people dremeled their 06 red link to accommodate it. I have an 06 red link I'd sell relatively cheap if you wanted to try your hand at machining it to fit. I've seen pics somewhere of it, a little effort and research you should be able to find the pic
  35. hitar_potar Member

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    43, to be exact. And then there's the postage which is another 15-20. And then the changing of the bushes at the other end of the shock, which are to be custom made cause in order to put the Evolver air shock, i had to cut the lower link and now it's a little bit different than stock sizes. :D
    All this, plus the regular maintenance of the shock, the brakes (which are way overdue), the fork, new tyres.... And it goes crazy. As we have a saying here in bulgaria: drop by drop, it becomes an ocean! :D
    My thoughts exactly. However, i'm still waiting on Enduro to answer my question if they can put a 14mm outer-diameter needle bearing in the kit instead of the 15mm one - Manitou's eyelets are smaller than Fox/Rock Shox/Elka/etc. :(
  36. Udi Active Member

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    Since you're a pretty up-front guy (pointing out the useless cutouts - which indeed they are :)), I'll share my opinions on both the air shock and needle bearings, having tried both in the past.

    The air shock, while generally matching the leverage curve requirements of the Sunday, ultimately won't work as well as a coil shock. It covers the end-of-stroke requirements by providing progression (which works well with the Sunday's linear ending stroke), however what I haven't discussed much here before is the Sunday's beginning stroke - which is not as progressive as it should be. This means that the initial stroke does not move particularly easily, and while it's still better than many bikes out there, it can result in harshness on initial contact with square edged bumps if shock setup isn't carefully considered.

    The problem with most air shocks is that they are quite firm initially due to the nature of the design, and also have a significant amount of additional stiction from the air seals. These shortcomings would be overcome in a frame with strong initial progression / high leverage ratio at the beginning of stroke (V10, Turner DHR, etc) however the Sunday does not offer this. In my opinion it has just enough to work well with a coil shock.

    Onto the needle bearings. Having run them for some time (upper only), they started pitting relatively quickly and eating into the inner race. If you aren't riding very often they might last a while, but I destroyed them in about 2 weeks of lift riding. They do feel nice otherwise, but by running an air shock you kill off so much sensitivity that the net effect of adding a needle bearing to it is going to be relatively small. It's like adding 1kg to your bike somewhere and being excited about removing 50g somewhere else, the net effect is a loss.

    So, my suggestion (as always, for this frame) is to run an RC4, as it provides the end-stroke progression required without the initial stroke harshness of an air shock. It's the best upgrade you can make to the frame after angled headset cups.

    However, if you must follow your current path and just want an answer, BOS shocks use 14mm OD needle bearings and they also make hardware that can be made to work with the Sunday upper link. They will be expensive but will probably fit the Manitou shock, if Enduro ones can't be found. Alternatively, you can also enlarge the Manitou eyelet ID if you have the appropriate tooling, so it will accept normal Fox-size hardware. I've done this in the past on a Swinger shock with success.
  37. Udi Active Member

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    I'm much like yourself - moved onto an Evil Undead a little while ago, but still find the Sunday quite intriguing as it was far ahead of its time and changed the downhill game in a lot of ways!

    I don't run the BOS fork, but have ridden a few - they work well, but so do most top-end forks these days. The Stoy is a terrible match for the Sunday and I wouldn't recommend it, it really needs some frame progression. I also felt the main piston significantly lacked flow and ended up customizing it a little (enlarging porting and revalving to suit), which isn't particularly impressive for such an expensive shock.

    Might be better in a more progressive frame, but that doesn't excuse the not-so-perfect porting and valving. The shock chassis is brilliant in terms of quality and sliding friction / tolerances though - very smooth and stiction-less.

    See above post regarding needle bearings. Dug up a pic of the old girl for you, any of your new DHR?

  38. hitar_potar Member

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    Wow, thanx for the detailed answer - i really didn't expect it! :)
    What air shock have you tryed before? Was it an Evolver ISX-6? What you're saying about air shocks is generaly correct, but my experience with the Evolver is on the contrary. I feel it's pretty damn too active at the begining stroke. :( I've tryed putting more air-pressure as well as putting the low compression dial at max - still too active. As for progresivity, yes, it is matching the Sunday perfectly. Only the too-active initial stroke is what's bugging me - i have my eyes set on either some tuning regarding that (different shims), or using 7.5W oil instead of the 5W - to see how different it would become. :) My Sunday came with a Vivid Coil shock which was probably better at the begining stroke, but i had to choose which shock of the two i had to say bye bye to, so i chose to keep the Evolver - i'm used to its type of working, find it pretty easy to tinker with it, and it's definitely lighter than a coil shock. But your words make me think. :?
    The needle bearings - i thought they last way more than regular bushes. This was my idea for using one, as said i don't really need a boost in performance of my rear end - the Evolver is good enough for now. :) And no, i wouldn't enlarge the eyelet of the Manitou shock - i can find the appropriate tooling for the job, i can even find a friend-professional to do it for me for free. :) But am usually staying away from such actions if i can find a more safe alternative. Will check the BOS hardware to see what they offer. :)
    As for different shocks - i have heard people talk about the RC4 on the Sunday before. Would you recomend it over an Elka Stage 5, or, let's say, a Double Barrel Coil and Double Barrel Air? I was thinking of keeping the Evolver for a while and if possible, let it go later and have a try on a DVO shock when they get available (meaning at least another year probably till that :D ).

    P.S. Are you the one that created that Sunday Fan page on facebook? :)
    Just recently i found my Sunday posted there (a red one with a carbon Dorado 2009 up front). :D
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  39. csermonet Member

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    image.jpg Udi - thanks for the response. And yes here is how it sits right now. Got a few things in the mail, Goodridge lines, Renthal Kevlar grips, small stuff. 38.5lbs
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  40. the_maxis_233 New Member

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    Need a little help, Anyone can tell how remove this two bearings?
    2012-12-15 17.18.01.jpg

    thanks