[kidwoo]

I like the feel of shimano brakes but it just seems like the holy grail shimano brake keeps appearing to be just around the corner.

Well that was last year when you could actually slow down enough to get around the corner.

Now I'm just upside down 50 feet off the trail with a pine tree up my ass, trying to remember my name and address with no idea where I should be looking.

 

[muddyfox]

I've got 2 sets of 820 Saints, bought 1 last year, another on the new bike this year and have had no issues with either set. For what it's worth.

 

[JimLad]

So I tried bleeding the rear lever again thoroughly, and it was fine initially. However there seems to be fluid leaking from around the gold adjuster knob (master cylinder seals buggered?). I have ordered some XT M785 levers to replace the saints and will try and get them warrantied.

Bit disappointed - I thought I had left brake issues behind switching from avid

 

[chris.george]

So I tried bleeding the rear lever again thoroughly, and it was fine initially. However there seems to be fluid leaking from around the gold adjuster knob (master cylinder seals buggered?). I have ordered some XT M785 levers to replace the saints and will try and get them warrantied.

Bit disappointed - I thought I had left brake issues behind switching from avid

I had the same problem - it just means there was too much pressure in the system and it was releasing it. It's a bummer because it means overfilling the caliper is delicate. I don't know what to do either because after 3-4 of riding these - I don't trust them.

If anyone has a way to make the levers a tad bit stiffer; I'm all ears.

 

[JimLad]

Well now the rear brake pulls to the bar again. Waiting on my xt levers but won't have those until next week

 

[demo 9]

Anybody know if buying the calipers is a good idea? I have some old M810s that i love, but wouldnt mind cooling fins on them. Seems the internet disapproves of the levers on the 820s?

 

[Tomasis]

demo9, it doesnt hurt to try. I will check out some levers for m810 just avoid levers with adjustable reach. SLX/Deore look good! Also Zee.

 

[Tomasz]

Decided to demo some M820's myself yesterday to see what all of the hubbub is about. Definitely noticed the inconsistency. Will be sitting these ones out.

 

[chris.george]

Has anyone tried the XTR Trail levers with the M820 Calipers? Shimano claims there's no difference. But then, why would so many pros use them?

 

[tuumbaq]

Anybody know if buying the calipers is a good idea? I have some old M810s that i love, but wouldnt mind cooling fins on them. Seems the internet disapproves of the levers on the 820s?

Why? so you can spend 70$ on a set of new pads when you need them ? Ive had the 820 for nearly a year now, no bleeding/inconsistency issues apart from a stupid loud howling sound from the rear once in a while...

 

[Bajaguy]

I had an XT brake go completely blank a few days ago. Middle of a descent, nothing wierd just some high speed bumpy stuff. Not a big deal because it was the rear and nowhere consequential but if that had been on something steeper and been my front brake, I'd have been throwing a fit.

After talking amongst my peers all of whom own some sort of current shimano brake, it sounds like the XTs have a problem that shows up after a good season (year?) of use. Everyone bought them last year and a lot of them now having problem like this show up right about now. Kinda shoots down my thoughts of the XTs/two pot caliper system being the holy grail. Still have another pair on another bike that have been flawless but I'm going to bleed them for the hell of it. I DID pull some air out of the funky one when I went to bleed it. Air that definitely wasn't there when I put them together last year.

A buddy and I have been talking about it and he's pretty sure the heat generated by these newer brakes has something to do with it. What's it take to make mineral oil off gas? Not necessarily boil but at least break down in a way that gasses start coming off.. I know bleeding these things the oil has been pale after a year whereas previous generations would keep the oil looking like it was new two seasons deep.

Got some brand new saints this year but I haven't ridden them enough to suss out any weirdness. Had the bleed them like 8 times each to get a completely solid fill. We'll see.

Had this happen to me today with my front xtr trail brake setting up for a corner. It was pretty scary since overshooting the corner would have sent me down a 40 foot cliff. Squeezed the front brake and lever went straight to the grip. Luckily I was able to grab a fist full of rear brake and lean the bike over and skid into the corner! I stopped and pumped the brakes a couple times and it came back. It was just at the start of 5 min highspeed rocky descent so needless to say I cruised it down even though the brakes felt normal again.

I thought of this thread later and how Gwin had that crash with his brakes doing the same thing. Brakes are about 16 months old and have been flawless before this. I guess it's time for a bleed especially since Im heading to Downieville next weekend.

 

[kidwoo]

I don't know what's up with those things.

My XTs on my trail bike have done it a few times each (front and rear), the XTs on my 7" shuttle bike have never done it (but that bike does get fewer miles). And pretty much everyone I know who bought XTs last year has had it happen to them this summer.

My saints haven't done it (yet).

 

[Tomasz]

Weird.

The nice thing about SRAM brakes is that you at least know when they're going to go on you.

 

[Udi]

The nice thing about SRAM brakes is that you at least know when they're going to go on you.

All the time?

 

[HardtailHack]

Just made me think a bit, and go OT.

If you did a crappy bleed at sea level and head to something like 2km above sea level the air is something like 25% less dense, wonder if that would make brakes feel any different if there was a bit of air in them?

My ancient Maguras would bypass the master cyl if you pulled them in too hard and the lever would stay at the bar, it sucked! New Maguras are great, very glad I didn't get XTs

 

[Tomasz]

All the time?

Haha, solid bleed and they're pretty solid actually. Been pleasantly surprised...

 

[kidwoo]

Just made me think a bit, and go OT.

If you did a crappy bleed at sea level and head to something like 2km above sea level the air is something like 25% less dense, wonder if that would make brakes feel any different if there was a bit of air in them?

My ancient Maguras would bypass the master cyl if you pulled them in too hard and the lever would stay at the bar, it sucked! New Maguras are great, very glad I didn't get XTs

I've wondered about that. I'm usually bleeding at elevation and then going lower but there IS less atmospheric pressure on the system at the start of the kamikaze for instance. Seems like it would facilitate bubble formation. I bled the **** out of my saints before they got that hard snappy pop at engagement. They've been fine but it took a lot of fluid passing through both ends to get all the air out of them.

 

[LOOnatic]

I've just accepted the fact that my XT's take frequent bleeding like a Boxxer needs oil changes...
Luckily it takes a just a few minutes after you have it down with a proper syringe.

 

[kidwoo]

I've just accepted the fact that my XT's take frequent bleeding like a Boxxer needs oil changes...
Luckily it takes a just a few minutes after you have it down with a proper syringe.

Yeah my problem is that it's never preemptive action. It's always after one has gone blank on me and I almost careened down a fuggin cliff on some gnarly sidehill.

One thing I do know........when it happens it always comes after a dip. Meaning a hard lean into a turn. Every time.

 

[Bajaguy]

Gave mine a bleed today and got a good amount of air out. I have XT's on my DH bike too w/o issue but those don't see as much use as the XTR's on my trail bike. Knock on wood hopefully that's all it needed.

As far as a comparison to Avid brakes there is no comparison. No way I would have been able to go 15 months/1300 miles with out issue with Avids. I constantly had problems with them and they can't touch the feel of Shimano brakes. Neve thought brakes would make me faster till I switched from Avid.

 

[boylagz]

Since were talking about XTs as well, Ive had AN issue with mine a couple mos back.

Coming from San Francisco and going to Tahoe for some park riding I was stoked. Never had a issue with my XT brakes before, ever. First run, I noticed my right lever/rear brake was jello. Barely biting. I was like oh shlt 0_0 Basically I was just front brake the whole day. Went home, bled once and its fine up to today. Weird, but has happened to me.
Crashed a couple weeks ago and destroyed the shiny metal cap that covers the reservoir of the left lever. Im thinking of just getting Saint levers. We'll see. So far its still working

 

[rscecil007]

Just bumping this, curious if this is still an issue on the new Saint 820 brakes? Ran into a riding pal on Saturday who has them on two bikes, and said both his pairs and been rock solid (he's aware of the issues I had.)

If Shimano's done something to fix them, I might be willing to give them another try. I did love them when they weren't acting up.

 

[Nick]

funny this got bumped ... I have a new set of 820s with only one shakedown run and one of the large pistons in the rear caliper started puking oil like the seal completely failed or folded or something. Off to Shimano for warranty.

 

[UncleHowie]

Just bumping this, curious if this is still an issue on the new Saint 820 brakes? Ran into a riding pal on Saturday who has them on two bikes, and said both his pairs and been rock solid (he's aware of the issues I had.)

If Shimano's done something to fix them, I might be willing to give them another try. I did love them when they weren't acting up.

I have mine since last spring and never had a problem. Never had to bleed them or something.

 

[iRider]

This somehow sounds like an Avid brakes thread.

 

[motomike]

Had this happen to me today with my front xtr trail brake setting up for a corner. It was pretty scary since overshooting the corner would have sent me down a 40 foot cliff. Squeezed the front brake and lever went straight to the grip. Luckily I was able to grab a fist full of rear brake and lean the bike over and skid into the corner! I stopped and pumped the brakes a couple times and it came back. It was just at the start of 5 min highspeed rocky descent so needless to say I cruised it down even though the brakes felt normal again.

I thought of this thread later and how Gwin had that crash with his brakes doing the same thing. Brakes are about 16 months old and have been flawless before this. I guess it's time for a bleed especially since Im heading to Downieville next weekend.

Do you run your brake lever really close to the handlebar? Sometimes when you have the lever set up super close to the bar, and you have your finger on the brake pulling the lever in ever so slightly, barely dragging the brakes, it will suddenly loose power until you let go of the lever to "reset" it.

 

[Udi]

We've seen approximately a 50% failure rate on the new XT (M785) brakes here, with some sets failing out of the box with leaking caliper seals. Shimano refuse to warranty them so riders are either buying replacement brakes or cleaning the leaks off every ride / dealing with the lever inconsistencies.

The lever randomly pulling to the bar has happened to everyone I've seen with M820s so far, they don't engage on the first stroke and you have to pump them before they'll engage. Heard of similar things happening on the XT, and I've experienced the same thing personally on the previous gen of servo wave XTs.

These aren't bleed issues (everyone has tried that), but I do think every now and then there's a trouble-free set. I still run the new Shimano brakes on a couple of bikes but am slowly converting them over to Formula which I've found a lot more reliable (2011+).

Shimano have dropped the ball completely in terms of reliability and it's about time they sorted it out.

 

[rscecil007]

Interesting, thanks for the update.

The XT 785 have been fine on my DH rig, as have the two sets of XTR Trails on the other bikes. No leaks anywhere or lever pull issues, although I did read where some of the early XT brakes had random leak issues at the calipers, or badly crimped banjos, etc.

 

[kidwoo]

We've seen approximately a 50% failure rate on the new XT (M785) brakes here, with some sets failing out of the box with leaking caliper seals. Shimano refuse to warranty them so riders are either buying replacement brakes or cleaning the leaks off every ride / dealing with the lever inconsistencies.

The lever randomly pulling to the bar has happened to everyone I've seen with M820s so far, they don't engage on the first stroke and you have to pump them before they'll engage. Heard of similar things happening on the XT, and I've experienced the same thing personally on the previous gen of servo wave XTs.

These aren't bleed issues (everyone has tried that), but I do think every now and then there's a trouble-free set. I still run the new Shimano brakes on a couple of bikes but am slowly converting them over to Formula which I've found a lot more reliable (2011+).

Shimano have dropped the ball completely in terms of reliability and it's about time they sorted it out.

Shimano's not replacing them now? They were. Lame.

I've got two sets of XTs, one slx, and one saint. The saints have never done that to me. One set of XTs continues to do that to me (hey that's 50%! ). I'm pretty much positive there's air getting past those leaky seals. That's why some do it, some don't. It's because some have crappy seals and some don't.

I do know that every time I've had one of the XTs almost kill me, I go home and bleed the crap out of them and there IS a bubble in there, even though I know I bled them like crazy the previous time. So I'm not sure I'd say bleeding doesn't fix the problem. If you've got a crappy sealing caliper, I think regular bleeding would help. But the problem isn't coming from a bad bleed per se.

 

[rscecil007]

That's surprising they aren't warranting the faulty ones. I know the thread I read (long ago mind you) on the new XT's, folks were posting saying Shimano was sending out new ones with no hassle, and even sending out new pads in most cases in case the originals got contaminated by the leak.

And I know the warranty department went way beyond when I sent back my two sets of m820's and they gave me XTR trails. Sent me new rotors, finned pads, and mounts to make up for the price difference and my trouble.

 

[Udi]

The problem is definitely with the brake in every scenario, not the bleed. Believe it or not it's virtually impossible to bleed anything (brakes, shocks) completely free of air, and their older brakes along with many other brands never had a problem as a result.

For whatever it's worth, the M820s with the levers pulling to the bar are leak-free, it seems to be some sort of lever issue. The caliper leaks have always been exclusive to the M785s, at least from what I've seen here. The last set (of M785) we had it happen on was a brand new complete bike so I don't think anything's been addressed.

Unfortunately warranty claims are a lot less smooth anywhere outside the US, in fairness it's not just Shimano either.

Phase 1: Blame user
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit

 

[kidwoo]

The problem is definitely with the brake in every scenario, not the bleed. Believe it or not it's virtually impossible to bleed anything (brakes, shocks) completely free of air, and their older brakes along with many other brands never had a problem as a result.

For whatever it's worth, the M820s with the levers pulling to the bar are leak-free, it seems to be some sort of lever issue. The caliper leaks have always been exclusive to the M785s, at least from what I've seen here. The last set (of M785) we had it happen on was a brand new complete bike so I don't think anything's been addressed.

Unfortunately warranty claims are a lot less smooth anywhere outside the US, in fairness it's not just Shimano either.

Phase 1: Blame user
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit

I'm not so sure I'd say the older saints never did that. The ones I did have that problem. It wasn't a big deal past the first brake grab on a run but I was always adjusting the throw on those things to compensate. My saints will have that first squeeze pump if the bike has been hanging on my wall a while but I've never had them go to the bar with zero braking force like the XTs have done.

Thinking this gen that I had the problem with. 810s


http://www.wigglestatic.com/images/shimano-saint-lever-zoom.jpg

And yeah I'm with you.....like I said. It's not the bleed. But a bleed on my XTs after it happens keeps it from happening again for a while. I don't know what's up with the saints. But mine have been working to my satisfaction.

 

[Udi]

I had the XTs of the same generation do it as well, and my friend reckons his M810s have done it also (although my M810s were fine apart from the stupidly long throw that all M810/M820s have). By older I meant the original M800 brakes that were super reliable, should have clarified. Since that era of Shimano brakes they've just become worse each generation in terms of reliability.

 

[kidwoo]

But it's like crack......


"I know he hits me but when we're getting along, it's just so good"

 

[Samoto]

crack, its probably so, lol

recently replaced old 810 levers with new Zee. Feels good so far. I had extend levers all way out so it wont go down to handlebar. Lets see how the combo holds out.

Bleeding kit from Epicbleedsolutions makes the bleeding process fast and easy. Finally!

 

[kidwoo]

I hope there's no reason to ever describe bleeding brakes as 'epic'

 

[Samoto]

i hope it wont be blamed on anything else except Shimano.

it is the crack!

 

[rscecil007]

For whatever it's worth, the M820s with the levers pulling to the bar are leak-free, it seems to be some sort of lever issue.

I don't think that's the necessarily the case. With one of my sets, before Shimano just warrantied the whole shebang, they sent me a set of the new XTR levers to mate up with the Saint 820 caliper. And same thing happened, varying bite point just like the Saint levers.

And trust me, I had an epic bleed when I set up the XTR levers.

 

[Udi]

I've seen the XTR Trail levers (on M810 / M820 calipers) do the exact same thing so I'd say the problem is indeed at the lever, but the 4-pot calipers exaggerate issues a lot more as the greater total piston area gives a higher hydraulic leverage ratio - which results in a longer throw. It means that a throw variation can render the brake completely useless (if it hits the grip) as opposed to just annoying.

Either way I just wish they'd recognize these problems / sort them out. I actually know people who haven't chased up XT warranties because they're worried they'll get an even worse set!

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

Now we know what happened to Gwin in Leogang.

And when japs start refusing warranty you can be certain there is a real issue (Sony I am looking at you!)